Lamar

Makes sense. I do think that at least for an ATS-V model, they could increase the output and use the 6L90 from the CTS-V.

While on campus this afternoon, passed an all-black Panamera heading the other day. The more I see the car, the more I like what Porsche has done with it. I do wonder where they got it though. Probably went out to Atlanta.

So yeah, back to the engines in hopes of not letting this thread end up getting political... Dwight, what would it take for the 6.2 you proposed to have HP and torque closer together? Like, say, 450/450?

Granted, dado. But it's not really GM's fault if the European car-buying public (and while we're at it, the American car-buying public) is made up of mostly people who can't take the time to educate themselves properly about what's out there. You, sir, are a rare breed on both sides of the ocean. And as far as Mercedes-Benz engines found in trucks? That's an apples-to-coconuts comparison since MB doesn't make pickup trucks like that.

Let's chop this up a bit, as Dwight just did before I could post: Only Cadillac that has truck engines is, well, a truck itself (Escalade). The engine in the CTS-V is only in that car and the upcoming Camaro ZL-1, itself a model commanding a higher price. No recent Cadillac V8 has ever been found, as is, in a Chevy truck. Viper's V10 originated there and then was put in a limited-edition Ram truck, not the other way around. For what it's worth, the engine in the M5 was in the X5 and X6 first, themselves trucks (er, I mean SAVs). The diesel in the diesel E, S, ML, and GL Classes? Also in the Sprinter (another truck, basically). Some of the statements in your post are unfounded and can very well be turned around to the European cars. And as far as the points you were making about engines being shared between cheap cars and luxury marques, I'd just like to point out that Audi and SEAT share a few engines...

Stop your lies, Dwight! The AMG 6.2 CAN'T sound raucous, raw, loud, or gritty! It has DOHC and is hand-built in Germany! It comes with a three-point star! It costs over 10 grand to manufacture! They put it in the S-Class, so it HAS to be the most refined engine in the world! OK, I'm being silly, but really, who buys an AMG, M, RS, V, or even SS or SRT and expects the engine to be silky smooth all the time? If it does, someone's just wasted their money.

:word:

There's no need for Cadillac to have Mercedes' volume since it's impossible for them to have 15 (B, C, E, S, CL, CLS, SL, SLK, SLS, R, ML, G, GL, GLK, Sprinter) models. Nor is there really a need to. Some of Mercedes' models (R, ML, GL, GLK) are me-too offerings anyway. IMO Caddy would do well with ATS (four variants), CTS (three variants), STS (or whatever they call the RWD flagship), Escalade (it still sells), SRX (moved back to Sigma or Alpha), and MAYBE an XLR done right. Caddy doesn't need to be a full-line manufacturer like MB is in Europe. Now if you're talking worldwide volume, I'm certain that Cadillac won't expand worldwide and then fleet itself out like Mercedes and BMW do. However, everything else you said in this comment is spot-on.

I already explained why. The two cars aren't even comparable because they're aimed at different markets. Now if someone could prove that the E63 handily outsells the CTS-V, then you make a better point.

Fair enough, Balthy. Then also by his logic, LaCrosse > E-Class.

Let's think about this for a second... are you daring to compare the sales of the mass-market, driveable-by-anybody E350 to the top-of-the-line, probably-too-much-car-for-most-people CTS-V?

EXACTLY my point there. Aside from people who actually follow the industry, I've not met anyone who knows anything about BMW and how the cars are built... just that it's a "status car." Same with Mercedes-Benz, for that matter. That's why they get into the barebones models which are slower and whose interiors are worse-equipped than my wife's '99 Maxima. I can assure you that DOHC, 8-speed auto transmission, skidpad numbers, and weight distribution didn't mean crap to those buyers. What we need to remember is that there are two kinds of buyers... people who know cars and people who don't. The ones who do know cars will pay attention to all the mechanical specs and capabilities and buy based on what they prefer. The ones who don't buy primarily on image, secondarily on interior features. The car market is saturated these days with the latter group. So all this about valvetrain, transmission, suspension, handling characteristics, and the like won't matter if, first, Cadillac doesn't make a concerted effort to improve its image and reestablish itself as a top-tier brand.

You give buyers too much credit. My mother just bought a new 535i, and I had to tell her all the mechanical specs on the car AFTER she bought it. Sure, there are buyers who know the specs and stuff. But what keeps being skirted here, and I know that this is a thread about engine offerings and such, is that people still buy mainly because of the BADGE. And with more exclusive equipment often comes more badges...

Unless they're shortening the mile once that car comes out, I call also.

So basically, the law of diminishing returns. Thanks, Dwight, for yet another insightful explanation. Many car companies have skipped numbers of gears when they were bringing out new transmissions. I know that the Big 3 went straight from 4AT to 6AT in their transverse transmissions, MB went from 5 to 7, and BMW and Audi went from 6 to 8. Chrysler is going from 5 to 8 in the LX cars, so that should show some pretty significant improvement. Would you say, then, that adding two gears is more beneficial than just adding one? Even though at this point, according to you (and other reviewers and sources), it's no more than an example of playing "whose is bigger?"

None. Toyota is probably the closest... they have a controlling stake in Aisin, but it is not a wholly owned subsidiary. BMW/Audi uses ZF and independent maker's boxes. That was the point I was after. We established that Hyundai's unit will be out first (GM BK and all), but even still, it's nice not to have to contract out all the time.

Caddy will never truly challenge MB and BMW on their own turf in Europe, at least for sales. We can lay that to rest now.

If I were the admin and not you, I'd suspend you for that one. But to actually answer your question, I've always said that we wouldn't start people-mover shopping until the third child was expected.

Thanks all, once again. Yep, first child. So the rollercoaster ride begins.

Thanks, guys. Nope, I'll never be a fan of little cars. :lol:

Fellow C&Gers, I'd like to introduce the newest member of the family, daughter Kera Nicole. Arrived 27 June '11, after my wife was in labor for 23+ hours. But it was well worth it, if she is to be believed.

The Aston Martin, Audi, Bentley, BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maybach, Mercedes-Benz, and Rolls-Royce vehicles that V12s (or W12s) are found in are too exclusive to matter much when it comes to CAFE. Plus, the people who shop in those markets will continue to want those engines (whether or not they know what it means to have 12 cylinders), and automakers seem to be wanting to even make those cars more efficient. On the other hand, if these V12s go away because of CAFE as per your prediction, then so will the LS9/LSA.

(Not trying to add to all the reply nesting ) Most automakers do build them in-house. Off the top of my head, GM, Ford, MB, Nissan, and Honda make most of their own transmissions. GM would be only the second third automaker to build its own 8AT... and it would be the first second if you hold that Toyota's 30% stake in Aisin doesn't count. EDIT: smk gave a satisfactory answer.

Well, that is the penality for being a follower instead of a leader... I have to ask. What company currently has an 8-speed auto built entirely in-house?

A while back, I mentioned the idea of GM developing a W12, for the same reason of shortness. But someone told me that VW AG had the patents on their W12 design (two VR6 engines on one crankshaft, basically). I remember they had a W8 in the Passat two generations ago, but not since.