hyperv6

It all comes down to preception. The Malibu is as good as Honda and Camry but the trick is how do you change peoples minds of what a Malibu rreally is. Hyundia did it with price and better warranties than Honda and Toyota. Is that something GM should do to one up and make them a better value. Once GM gets people behind the wheel and treat them well at the dealer it shoudl work. I just fear just sitting the car out there and hoping they will come in will not be enough. The price will bait the trap and the warranty will back up GM's claim they are better. People want cheap cars that don't need fixed! That is all it takes as we already know by the big sellers styling seems to not matter.

I wouls suspect we will see this or something near this. I think all would love to see this except for 2 posters here.

The fact is today outside of enthusiast [being the minority] looks of a car is not the think on top of their list. For the most part this is what they look for. Can I afford it and how much are the payments or lease per month. Does it have a warranty and how long is it Is it reliable? M ost people today consult Edmunds or Conusumer Guides to buy cars vs Hot Rod or Car and Driver. Most people want a taste ful car but nothing to radical. There are may radical designs out there and many are very nice but he plain 4 door sedan is always the top seller. It is like Metalic or Van Halen in music. WHen they were true to their roots they made money and sold CD's. When they went more mainstream they were accused of selling out but they made even more money and sold many more CD's. My point is in todays world while many enthusiast recall the days of edgy styling and radical appointments most people want bla today. TO survive in todays market you have to sell what the people want not what you want them to have. I blaime air bags and helmet laws. Ever since they were required the people who would have not made it to 30 years are still with us, Society as a whole has gotten dumber and dumber with each year. It is time to cull the heard. :AH-HA_wink:

I don't know the others but I know Gary from Edmunds and he is as much a dyed in the wool GM fan as we are. He has written many GM approved books including the new book on the Solstice. He even is a Solstice owner. I like hearing postive reviews and hope most of these are accurate as I like the car and hope it sells well. FYI Garys wife also is a writer and has also worked for GM in the past too. Garys a great writer and car nut. He also wrote the GM approved book on the Fiero in the 80's.

This car is so over done when the G8 is just about right for the general market. People are over the over done stying thing like it or not. This car will show they made the right choice with the Solstice and G8 to tone things down. Check out the comments on the GXP on Autoblog vs the comments on the G8 from last week. The unwashed Non GM masses are so very down on this car ans very much positive on the G8. These non GM lovers are the important people that need to buy these cars and the G8 looks to be the one if priced right that will win with them over.

Where are the Supra [really a 4 seater and a MR 2 today???? Gone! Limited sales limited profits and limited life. GM does realize today that killing Olds all together was a mistake because once the name is gone it so very hard to bring back. Ever heard of the Le salle? First off have you not noticed most GP's have a E ont he deck lid as they are rental cars?? These fleet sales they will lose are not profitable. The G 6 may be around in some form but need to be better than it is today. Also GM has made it clear Pontiac is no loner a high volume brand. they will only need to account for 1/2 to 1/3 of the sales in one dealership. GM has removed the pressure of high volume so that Pontiac and Buick can concentrait on doing the cars they are good at and not have to make one for everyone. Mazda for years has limited sales of the Miata in the states and has also sold the car around the world. GM is doing the same with the Kappa. Your not going to move high volumes of 2 seater for multi years as it is a car you can only sell to a limited crowd. The Vette is about as high volume as your going to see in a 2 seater. Even the Miata sells a average of all its years 15-17K cars per year. Before the redesign it did not make 10k for the year. Look around I dont think 98% of all the people here are wrong and your right. I respect your opinion but you better look at what your saying and how few well informed people here agree. Is this Buick Man? If not we need to name him Pontiac Man.

First lets address reality. Pontiac has not started the rebuilding yet as the G8 and the Solstice is the only real first full Lutz efforts. Now Saturn has already added many models and has a lead on it's rebuilding because they were even worse off than Pontiac. Second Pontiac is not going anywhere but up as it gets new models over the next few years. Third It would be insane to sell two 2 seat sports cars in the same line up of you value leader car line. 2 Seat cars are a limited market and really only one will do the work that two would do. The many spent would be much better off in the Malibu or other high volume higher profit car. We are going to see Pontiac turn into a more sport performance division with Euro flair. Plain as some might think it that is what is selling. If Pontiac can give quality and perfornace at a great price it will live on. The sooner the SUV crossovers and G5 or 6 are updated or eliminated with much better product we will see these changes. GM realized that killing Olds was the wrong thing to do as they lost all equity of a once proud name. GM is in some way kind of returning to their roots where each division will only offer a couple cars. In the old days you did not have 16 Pontiacs choices, you had 2 or 3. Most of us here see and understand what GM is doing and where they are going and a few will just never catch on.

As a GP owner I don't have the numbers but feel more uncomfortable with ever GP I follow with a E in a green box on the deck lid. In my area it happens too often. It isd like they have a Enterprise edition GP.

That is what the differance is bettween those who think and those who dream. You got to know who to listen to. At least it is better here than other web sites.

I would be shocked if it happens. If it does it would really be a replacment for the Caddy roadster with a limited special Corvette offered with the regular front engine.

I think he means this is the more basic car less the bigger wheels and other upgrades we will see in a year. GT really does not mean much more than just standard car at Pontiac anymore.

60's T birds had them there too. If the switches are that much of a problem to anyone they were not in the market for this car in the first place.

What is to keep in mind here is that this is only the standard GT model and it looks good. We will ge more agressive parts, flashier interior, bigger wheels and brakes etc soon. As one might note most of the snobs at Autoblog seem to like this car as only a few ignorent troll ave piped in. This a good sign and I think when prices are anounced it will also be pleasing to many. I expect this car to sell well I just hopw the dealers don't get greedy like they did on the GTO. The G8 will be a very popular car in LA area for GM and that is something they dearly need. As for the window controls on the console how much more Pontiac can you get as this was a place the TA had theirs. Just be glad it is not like an Alfa with them on the headliner console. This will be he best Damn Sedan Pontiac has had in many years. Just which emblem will we get on the nose?

I made it to the very first Woodward not even knowing it was on. Needless to say things have grown and I will have to make a return visit. Also go to Hot August Nights in Reno it is also one of the things a real car guy has to do before he dies things. Thanks for the pic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After reading this thread this AM I was able to sped time in a parking lot watching traffic [read waiting for the wife]. I did note that most makes today have little better styling than this car and the tail lights are not much better on most others. Many of the cars are now sporting the high nose and nondiscript sedan styling. So while the Malibu is not a home run in the department it is a good solid double. Now all we need is some great reviews and a track record of reliability. I think to get people to buy GM is going to have to raise the warranty on their cars to 5 year 100,000 miles on all cars. This worked for Hyundia and with the lower peice and great warranty many were willing to give them a second look.

I got to see one of these in the open at a NASCAR truck race last may. It was a good time to compare as it has a new Impala along side and a old Malibu two cars down. The car is near the size of the Impala [Note that this car is to take Impala's place when replaced with a RWD to give buyers a choice, smart move] Also noted the car is a BIG IMPROVMENT over the present Malibu. THis car give the look of a car costing 5-10K more than it will sell for. I too am not a big fan of the tail lights as they look like a Mitubishi. But on the other hand the last Impala had much worse tail light with the wide plastic band and the 4 round lights. So while they are not exactly what I would like I will take them as an improvment over the past few models. I overall love the Aura too but even the tail end on it reminds me of an old Oldsmobile and not a Staurn. It is not bad but also not as good as the rest of the car. The Malibu compared to the lifeless compitition should do well as it has a good price and is well equiped. Lord knows this car my not be all it could be but it is at least a car that finally can compete in this tough segment. Chevy will do well with this car.

A hybrid would be a very deft move right now. I would almost be sure GM has this idea already. Hybrd is not a bad word but in most cases it is a small boring underpowered car. This technology applied to a performance car that get improved mileage and image would be a boon. Japan is already working on performance Hybrids and here is a chance for GM to be at the start of the curve vs playing catch up. Volt technology is only the start and much of what is learned can and will be shared in other cars. As for Diesels.. other than enthusiast and Diesel diehards the general public is not as a whole that excited about them and never have. You can blaime old stereo types of the Olds mess or the fact many in cold climates don't care for the extra work needed etc. I loved what I saw with the Audi 10 cylinder American Lemans racers but few people even know anything about them and in the States they would still be a hard sell. Hybrids on the other hand are like MP3 and had caught the publics interest as new technoloy at least to them. Now if you get the price of diesel under the price of gas some may start to pay attention to the improved diesels. But till them too many in the general public think they are just smokey noisey pick up truck engines.

Old news as I posted the other day that some of the staff is already being trained to dyno test these at Lordstown. He said times for 0-60 would be in the mid to upper 5 sec range. As for HP I expect power to level off soon but with the reach for better MPG I expect to see less weight in cars. Add that lower weight to the present power we have the best of both worlds. Also with less weight it would improve braking and handling

This engine is great in a Lotus because it weighs under 2000 LBS. This car proves what a co worker once told me "anything taste good if your hungry". I think with the lack of new product some here are getting too excited over this thing.

Son of Aztec or Aztec II This is just what Pontiac really does not need. As I said when I saw the first Aztec prototype in Detroit "What the hell are they thinking. This is proof if you whine too much about the G8 being to plain your dreams may come to haunt you!!!! Be careful what you wish for. Lets get Pontiac back to its core market sporty sedans and coupes and let the odd wagons to Chevy and Daewoo. If Pontiac is to do a wagon a Shooting Brake on a Alpha or Kappa would be more in tune with where Pontiac is going. Even the new Small Audi wagon make this thing look like a joke.

The Olympic's are a dead issue. Ratings are no where near what they were years ago. When we only had 3 networks and no dish or cable we would all sit and watch the Olympic's because we only saw this stuff once every few years. Now we can see it five times a day on five different sports networks. Besides with the stuff people are doing in the X games Gymnastics and ice skating just pale anymore. There is much better place for the money to be spent and get much more coverage. Who here bought a Buick just because you could get the Olympic special edition? Mmmm..... I thought so. Now they would do more good doing the Special Olympic's plus get a tax write off. GM's marketing is not anymore out of tough than most marketing deparments. Most have no clue as the people hired to sell the products and are not car people or even people who love what they are selling in the first place as it is only a job. With all the Police chases in LA on CNN at Lunch time anymore we could get GM to provide cars to the runners and let them show how well their cars perform. I may be joking but at work we all note how well some cars perform or hold up during the chase.

And everytime you risk a radical style or different concept you stand a good chance of a Aztec or Sunfire with limited appeal. Pontiac can not afford anymore Aztec's. Becareful of what you wish for. Don't get me wrong I would love to see some more darring Pontiac's as much as most of you. What I fear is they will not be accepeted by many and most of the buyers as has been the case with many of the latest Pontiac's If Pontiac is to stick there neck out it has to be a home run or it will be sitting on the lots. Of late their batting average is one Solstice and not much else. It is even in the eyes of many the 2nd best Kappa styling. I think the G8 can work better with some bigger wheels and tires like the show car. some tastefull HSV parts and even some clean color two tone combo's like some of the custom cars are now sporting. I myself was not a big fan of the 04 GP but with the 5 spoke chrome wheels the GXP spoiler and Stainless tail pipes I hace been suprised how many people tell me they like my car vs most GP's they see. The age range is from teens to 70's. The car in GT form is down right boring and really lookes the rental car part. the rear standard spoiler looks cheap and the ten spoke wheels just never worked on the car as they looked small even in 17" size. It is the details that count and the G8 GT is only a starting point. Lets just see what Pontiac can do with it once its line starts to expand. The base Bonnie sucked vs the clean GXP too.

I understand and agree this is what would be great. I would love to see things happen as you discribe but in todays market It happening. I just do not see what Pontiac people want as the same as most of the maket wants anymore and there are too few true Pontiac fans to support it. It is sad to say that most of the people in todays Auto market just want clean tasteful cars with only a little flair. Look at most of your top sellers and most are conservitive clones. Also look at the Asian luxury cars as most have a lot of BMW or Benz in them. Neither are dramatic but that is what the public wants. GM has tried to make some cars that stand out and each time they have been rejected or not as popular as one would expect. Avalanche vs Tahoe which one sold better here. Even with the better versitily the Tahoe won. The 4th Gen TA was awsome but never a big seller vs the Mustang, the GXP Bonnie was great looking to me but not to most others and few bought it. Today Cadillac has taken the bold step to try to lead in design. for the most part it has helped them from where they were but it is still polarizing to many. I hope with the cleaner new CTS this will lead many more back to Caddy. You can sell a conservtive good quality car to about anyone but when styling take a leading edge it becomes more polarizing and is a love it or hate it thing. A company can't afford a polarizing design when they every sale they can get. They can do this later when taking a chance is not as risky for the future of the division. I am not a BMW fan but feel Pontiac needs to reivent itself in a conseritive performance image. They could still sneek in a more radical car here and their but the bread and butter cars need to reflect what the market as a whole wants and not just Pontiac fans. We here too often think as enthusiast and fail to remember that we are in the minority in the market. I am a long time Pontiac fan and today I feel so alone as few people I know like or care for anything Pontiac has or has had for a long time. Even most would chose a Sky over the Solstice. The real sad part is I work in the performance aftermaket and if people there really don't car about Pontiac who will. Even more sad is the fact most Pontiac people can agree anymore since Pontiac has lost direction. Even a dramatic car like the Aurora was too little to late to help Olds with their base fans alone. Olds lost their base and I fear the same is true with Pontiac. If they are to survive they need to play to the majority as the Pontiac fans are all too few anymore. On the other hand the stylish conservitive Le Sabre helped save Buick. This is the same car Hyundia and toyot copied for some of their best selling cars.

Here is Fbodfathers reply to the photo we have here. Fbod posted: No Camaro 4 - door. Period. For your consideration: The C5 Corvette was developed using, among other things "CORMAROS" -- which were C5 chassis and drive trains underneath a Camaro body. (there's one on display now and then at the National Corvette Museum) We are certainly not going to put a Camaro out there to do early testing where you can actually see the car. (that would give the competition too much info....) So, sometimes we'll disguise the test mule. I'm not saying what you saw was a test mule for Camaro - -but what I am saying is that sometimes, there are test mules right under your nose -- and you completely miss them!

On the contrary there may fewer Pontiac fans than ever. Pontiac started to lose many in 1979 with the last V8. then they killed of many more fans with a Le Mans/ Bonneville. Add to that a large selection of FWD and too few RWD cars. At this point it can be said Pontiac is lost a Generation. There are many who have been born in the 70's and later that have no recall or love for the old Pontiac that some want to reclaim. We also now have too many that have not seen a Pontiac that they would want for near 28 years that do remember the better days. While the Solstice is a great car it is not in the cards or the budget to make a whole car line from the ground up. I am sure Pontiac and GM would love to do more but there are bigger fish to fry while saving GM. Pontiac is in limp mode to keep it viable till it is in the cards and budget to fit it. Even the Pontiac Oakland club is not overloaded with members anymore many are worried for the lack of new members. If all you think it will take to save Pontiac is a Coke bottle shape and a Retro grill we would be lucky if it was that easy. The bottom line is too few people care about Pontiac and Pontiac's past today. It will take a new look and new buyers to make it grow. If you hold onto the past too much you end up like Lincoln.