Croc

It's a funny pic...but definitely not the hottest Wonder Woman, that goes to Rachel Bilson:

Honestly, if I were you, at this point I'd remove any online confessions of that aspect of it in case the guy wants to press charges. Just a friendly bit of advice...honestly there aren't too many ear-rippers out there.

Unless you misrepresented, it sounds like you asked if there was a problem, which was met by a fight coming at you...so in that case you were fine.

Sorry, but that's really kinda petty on your part. Life's too short, man...

I clearly denoted my personal opinion on Oldsmobile. I have long admitted I have had a special fondness for Oldsmobile, and yes that plays into it. As far as Pontiac goes, the fact that it isn't even on the public's radar shows how irrelevant/poorly defined it is. Pontiac's "sport" has largely been cosmetic add-ons like ribbed door moldings, ground effects, and functionless hood scoops. Actual performance has been identical to its platform mates, especially Chevies.Honestly, our debate comes down to this: you think Pontiac has sporty heritage cues worth keeping, and I really don't think the brand has had enough consistency to necessitate them. As far as the G8: as I said before, if this were the next volume midsized offering, yea, I'd be on Team Evok for a "Pontiac Is Screwed" campaign...but I think the sales data and general buyers preferences for sedans in the G8's price range show that for Pontiac's flagship, a more subdued, sleeper design is better. These buyers have enough money that they will eschew anything tacky and looking like the 2000 Bonneville in exterior execution. These buyers have respect for Acura, and this having the subdued sophistication of an Acura will help it IMO. Finally, Pontiac's buyers/fans skew young. Pontiac is off the radar for almost everyone except those who really can't afford to buy new...and that's why the subdued G8 style is good IMO because the people who can afford it generally aren't interested in a "LOOK AT ME!" design. They want cars that have the sport without being a visual radar-magnet.

I like it! Not a lot, but enough to put an exclamation point there...

HAHAHAHAHA Blu, is there a chance that when she programs in her weight that it is less than yours and therefore she burns fewer calories? It takes more effort (calories) to move a larger body over the same time/distance. I mean, I assume she's smaller than you as a result of being female and older? Right?

Yes, economies of scale with Chevrolet. That's the only recurring theme throughout its history. I'd love to know where in the Sloan hierarchy Pontiac fit (according to you) because Sloan generally went Chevrolet -> Oldsmobile -> Buick -> Cadillac. Pontiac was sometimes an experimental division, other times a virtual duplicate of Chevrolet SS. I disagree about Oldsmobile...I think Oldsmobile was fairly well defined as an everyman car for the upper-middle class. I think the main problem with Oldsmobile was the stodgy styling that afflicted the division from the late 80s onward until the Aurora. The new lineup was even credible IMO and just needed a few more years to catch on, but I think the brand was salvageable. Clearly Oldsmobile couldn't have been too poorly defined if it was selling 1,000,000 in the 1980s...but the financial problems of the early 90s meant Olds and Buick grew too close until a too-little, too-late/not enough time renaissance.

So...a Holden with a Pontiac grille and hood scoops is worse than abandoning the heritage of Chevrolets with tacked-on trim, Pontiac grilles and hood scoops? Pontiac has always been the least-defined of the GM brands...it never even fit into the Sloan hierarchy. Pontiac stands for "driving excitement" and its design cues have revolved around trying to look sporty, however that has been defined at the time of each car's design. The only consistent Pontiac cues have been the arrowhead and the split grille. Everything else has been here today, gone tomorrow. Since the G8 looks sporty, exciting and aggressive, it looks more like a Pontiac to me (driving excitement) than any ribbed, hood-scooped, ground effected Chevrolet with an Arrowhead logo. Pontiac has always competed with the Chevrolet SS...at least this is finally something without internal duplication.

Heh...oops. Exactly. I personally find the Solstice too curvy/jellybean-shaped; I like the sky better. The only design alteration to the G8 I could co-sign would be a flaring out/rib where the horizontal crease is on the decklid by the ambers to make the flat decklid look like a bulging muscle...but even that has a 50% chance of looking too overdone...

I LA

I don't. Other than the same overall style of taillights, I see little similar. The shapes are very different. Nissan likes to have a rear lift up, whereas the G8 (and domestics in general) prefer to keep it more level. G8 taillamps are also a lot more wraparound, something Nissan doesn't do as much. The proportions of the decklid, taillamps, license plate bracket, bumper, etc. all look "domestic" on the G8, whereas they have a more foreign look to them on the Nissan. The G8 just looks more "solid" than the Altima, and I've always tended to think domestic designs looked heavier, more purposeful. The Altima (less so than other Japanese designs, though) has exaggerated features that make the sheetmetal (at least to me) look stretched and "thinner." Like the bumper that looks "stretched"...same with the top of the decklid. THAT SAID Nissan (and Infiniti) is my favorite non-domestic marque for the reason that I think their proportions are very similar to domestic automakers. If anything, the G8's rear looks almost German in its purposeful design.

This thing couldn't pass as a Nissan. No way. None of the proportions or design vocabulary have anything to do with Nissan. Heck, the taillamps are the closest bit, but they still don't look like something Nissan would do. Ditto with Mitsubishi...their proportions and design DNA are not really on this vehicle either. Acura I could agree with. This thing could easily fit into Acura's lineup, at least exterior-wise...until you get to the rear. Of course, this isn't necessarily a bad thing as I think Acura has some great style...but unlike Acura, G8 isn't nondescript. It has presence and a great stance. Also, this is the flagship. I'd be more concerned if this styling were for a 20k roadster or midsized sedan...but this has the attitude. Flagships need more mature, subdued styling compared to their smaller brethen. The only thing I don't like about this is that it isn't called Bonneville.Put another way: The 1996 Aurora had great mature, subdued, yet aggressive styling. It was a sleeper. And it was gorgeous...but still aggressive. Then the 1998 Intrigue came out that looked just as nondescript and subdued...it didn't stand out. Classy? Undoubtably. But still too mature. Alero did a good job of taking the styling and being distinctive, what with the rear cluster...too bad it was overall a very unrefined package and failed to catch on. Had the Intrigue looked more like its concept predecessor (especially in the rear) it would've looked sexier and sold better IMO...or if the interior/packaging were better than the mediocre GM standard of the time (though Intrigue was the best W of that generation). Moving onto these: OK I'm gonna stick to the three GTOs in the foreground. The shadowed one in the background looks like a generic car to me with a hood ram.Left front view GTO: Looks like a Camero with a Pontiac split grille. That's fine and all, but it looks like a Chevy with a Pontiac grille. Red front 3/4 view GTO: This doesn't even look domestic. I get a distinct Infiniti/Nissan vibe off of it. Again, nothing wrong with that...just nothing says "Pontiac" to me. Rear 3/4 view GTO: If it weren't for the badge, I'd say Dodge Charger. Typical high Chrysler beltline, bunker-style windows, blocky overall shape. Everything else is fairly nondescript...though it's definitely a domestic design. Of all of those, the "Camero with a split grille" is the closest to what I'd associate with a Pontiac. I could easily see that as a Firebird or GTO...the thing is...that's because it looks like a Chevy with "sporty things" tacked on. I think that's a problem...Pontiac needs something that doesn't look like a Chevy...and at this point the G8 is it. ...and that doesn't look like a Mitsubishi?

This car really isn't a stop gap. I don't believe there's any replacement planned, and I think evok said as much earlier. Frankly, this car doesn't look like anything else in the GMNA lineup. No one was bitching about developing "Saturn-specific" cues for the Opels, I don't see why GM cannot do this. Sales for Pontiac have been freefalling for a while, and they need a new direction. Did the Solstice have any Pontiac cues? No, not really. Neither does this...but they have some similar cues, so maybe they will develop a new, cleaner, more sophisticated design vocabulary. Let's hope.

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??????That seems quite reasonable, actually...I mean you're paying for the event plus a decent charity donation...otherwise too many people would pay for the event, eat the food, and donate nothing.

Dude, I've never once paid a cent. It's called get friends/roomates who are stoners and join them sporadically.

The larger question is...what Pontiac attributes should be kept? Frankly, I'm over the "clay Chevy with a fork down the side" look of past Pontiacs. This looks sporty and sophisticated, and very upscale. I kinda liken this to the Lucerne: it's definitely a Buick, and a very successful one (success not limited simply to sales numbers), but it lacks the oval grille, full-length taillamps, sweepspear styling, and other traditional "Buick" design cues, but has the ventiports. The G8 has the side vents like the Solstice, the aggressive, top-of-the-decklid taillamps of both the Solstice and G6 coupe, the taillamps look blackened in the pics, and it has horizontal headlamps and hood scoops. To me, there are plenty of Pontiac cues, most importantly to me the overall stance of the vehicle...like a cat about to pounce.A lot of the traditional Pontiac cues were just tacky. How many of them existed on the universally-praised G6 showcar? That thing had Acura comparisons when it was released too! But we all wish the EPI G6 was the showcar...

Actually, I go for the buckets and console because buckets offer more lateral support than a bench. I also find it easier/more convenient to shift from the floor than a steering column. My father has had benches all his life, until his 2006 DTS. Now he has a console and loves it. He's a pretty big guy too, but thinks this is his most comfortable Cadillac ever. I would tend to agree, as I think those seats are right up there with my mother's Volvo XC90 seats. And the side bolsters on the DTS buckets are great! He has the performance package, and the more aggressive suspension tuning really helps keep this vehicle from being a floater. It's not quite "fun to drive" but it's the closest a Deville/DTS has ever been.

No, I think something else is responsible for that...

I said "reasonable" not preferable. I don't particularly like talking about that with my mother...but in Bill's case since he isn't out to her and just joined a gym, it's a logical question. I'm glad you're comfortable discussing finances with your parents, but I keep that to overall financial outlooks...It honestly would never occur to me to ask another person about their tax returns...it's just none of anyone's business...but maybe that's just how I was brought up.

Watch it. You know very little what you are talking about. The Xterra is a chick car, I've yet to see a "frat" in one, and this is in import-friendly LA. Lincoln Blackwoods, F-150s, Sierras, Silverados, Tahoes, Expeditions, Explorers, etc...but not one Xterra. I think I've seen one Titan, and frankly that truck can hold its own against the domestics, at least looks-wise.

Um, maybe those kinds of questions are reasonable if you tell your mother EVERYTHING...but tax refund? None of her business. New truck as nice as old one? No, mom, I figured I'd downgrade big time with this one. Gym and girls? OK that one's reasonable.Seriously Bill, you need to tell her. And honestly, even if she takes it badly, just be like "see! This is why I waited 20 years to tell you!" I have a feeling she'll take it well though... Anyway... My mom asks a lot of dumb obvious questions...but her thing is she repeats the same questions within a short time period. It gets old. That said, the distance helps, and it only really bothers me when she freaks out over the holidays...and at least now she's stopped caring about setting a good example for the kids that she FINALLY is medicating it with alcohol like she did back in the early 80s. It's kinda sad...she felt so compelled to set a good example for 20 years that she held herself to a glass of wine once or twice a week, and never more than a gin and tonic at nice restaurants...now she comes home from work, pours herself a glass of wine, and sits in front of the TV watching the season discs of The OC every night without fail. Over the holidays she now has a few glasses, and she's a lot less high strung and stressed out...more easygoing, etc. Yet another example of how much total abstinence sucks.

I do have a few questions about this interior though: What's CDC stand for? What's BC stand for? What's TP stand for? No seek/scan function on the radio? This might look techier, and cooler simply because it's so different fro the standard American interior, but I think the GMNA interiors are way more ergonomic and functional. Don't believe me? Compare the AURA and the Astra stacks. Do you have ANY questions about what a single button does on the AURA? Any questions in your mind about how to change CD tracks? I'll def give the Astra a shot when I see it in dealers, but at the same time I'm definitely skeptical about a straight Euro-port. I think switching out the center stack for a GMNA one would have done wonders.

Yea, it kinda does.