evok

I do not think you are wrong! Demolition Man comes to mind for me. Oh and so does the Martix. The difference between the Martix and The Demolition Man was the Matrix actually used Alpha II build level prototypes. The vehicles used in Demolition Man were concept vehicles recycled for the movie. That looks like the Concept Camaro to me built for the movie more so than prototype build.

Give me a break - I said no such thing. Again this thread has become useless, for the reasons I expressed earlier. Instead of thinking about what I wrote, you muddle the board with posts that lack any insight.

Rethink what you write, your statements that you attribute to me are just foolish.

In the context of what I am quoted, your post makes no sense.

Then GM Supplier Quality better get off their a&*.

This thread has become pointless because certain people never stepped back and thought about the argument for discussion puposes I framed in the first place. People were more concerned about using a V8 to define their manhood than putting up real arguments for discussion. This has nothing to do with V8 sales. V8 sales have been decreasing for years now and will only continue. More models with a V8 option may appear. That is irrelevant to the discussion. This discussion as I originally framed it is about, the future of the V8 in relation to ever increasing leaps the V6 is making in power, performance and refinement. The horsepower war has to end sooner than later. Think about it and where does that leave the V8 particularly in passenger cars. I already have my view, which I have not posted, because this thread has become about defining your manhood by an inanimate object and not thought.

Quantify many. Because when I ran the numbers, there really are not as many many many buyers as you may think and vehicle manufacturers are not planning on many many more buyers to take on the expense of a V8 in paseensger cars. Trucks are in flux because of the overall market and concerns about fuel, so right now it is tough to grasp where the market is heading.

Yes, let us compare a cast iron block V6 that is scheduled to go out of production in a couple model years with an LS motor.

If GM is smart they will not listen to any Pontiac enthusiast if they make a serious attempt at rebuilding the brand. Everything that currently defines Pontiac should be up for negotiations and deserves a complete rethinking. That includes: The arrow head. The split grill. Target buyer. Model names. Everything. Traditional Pontiac buyers that long for the good old days that have not existed for the brand in 35+ years are a dieing breed. Pontiac needs a fresh start all around if they believe they have a shot at turning the brand around. Just by changing the drive wheels and fliping the engine 90 degrees will not save Pontiac. Traditional buyer will be attracted to the brand no matter what GM pushes. The problem they face is convincing the other 16.4 million buyer, Pontiac is worth a look. Pontiac has a lot of baggage - For that very reason, everything has to be on the table.

Pontiac has not defined much in the way of excitment for its time since John Delorean left the division for Chevrolet in the early 1970's. That is a generation of car buyers that probably does not think of Pontiac as much if anything.

Oh no - by the late 1980s Honda's Accord was on the cusp of being America's number 1 vehicle and producing 1/2 million vehicles in the US and Canada.

There is a big difference in people minds, Pontiac is not Cadillac. Cadillac has always had a lot of good will left in the brand.

There was a recent design study for a Firebird that is stitting at the studio collecting dust last I checked. That artwork caused all the uproar in Motor Trend and Auto Extremist that there will be a new Firbird. Which is not the case. What I think most people fail to realize is that any Extreme Makeover that GM may ultimately decide for Pontiac will take years to implement. Pontiacs last hope as a brand could be a switch to rwd if that is what GM decides to implements. But, 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 years is really a long time in this business. Pontiac has very little momentum if any at the moment. 3 - 4 -5 - 6 years can be a very long time and that far out, will buyers even care. Time is not on Pontiacs side. These are not the days of Bunkie Knudson and John Delorean, where a transition can take place in one model year. Beyond a few models here and there over the last 40 years, Pontiac really has not built "excitement".

You should have prefaced your post with IMO

Troy Clarke is a GMI grad - he has some grease in his veins.

There is a difference between models offering a V8 as a choice and total volume. Case in point is Lexus. They sold more V8 powered cars in the early 1990's by volume than they do today.

Yes - for the most part.

V8 sales for the models you mentioned are small. 6 Cylinder sales are by far the significant majority of E and 5 Series sales.

Because you do not read what I wrote, I will repost again: In the not to distant future, the V8 might be relegated to a novelty status in the industry. It is reaching the point where naturally aspirated V6s have 300+hp. I am finding less and less of a point of the V8 beyond that applications I mentioned above. Before readers fly off the handle at what I just suggested. Step away from the computer and just think about what I did write.

I recently had the opportunity to really look over a new Lacrosse. The fits on the body panels and interior was first class. GM did a great job in maintaining a consistent gap between the body panels, and the materials that were used for the most part on the interior were first class. But you know what, the whole package looked cheap with little perception of quality when compared to the rest of the industry. Compared to say a new Passat, the Lacrosse might have better reliability, better fits, better JD Power ratings but you know what? The Passat appears on the surface to be a better vehicle. Perception wins the day.

I am sure. More models offering the V8 does not equate to more volume for the powertrain. Really, I think you need to read the body of what I wrote in the original post to this thread. I even reposted the relevant sections for you in a previous post. Read it because I have to assume you have not and only read the headline. And actually think about it before you start writing about it. It might make for more interesting discussion.

Your thoughts are unclear but I will address what I think you are trying to say. Because an OEM may offer a V8, does not equate with an increase in market penetration of that powertrain offering. Offering a V8 may be good marketing as there is a carryover appeal to the more mainstream models. But that does not equate to more demand for the V8 offering. The objective of this discussion has little to do with the enthusiasts that want a V8 but to talk about the continued diminishing relevance of the V8 to the larger market because of the significant power improvements made in the V6. Enthusiasts have little significance on the larger market. For the most part, enthusiasts talk cars but do not purchase news ones or purchase ones they talk so passionatly about!

Sure and that percentage is decreasing. They may want but they are not buying.

This is all speculation at this point in time.

You might not agree but the V8 in passenger cars will be a novelty for the most part and used for marketing when available. That's it. The truth is, right now it is just that and will only continue.