FUTURE_OF_GM

I don't think anyone will be "phasing out the V8" altogether. (If they do, I doubt I'll buy anything new either) That's just overreacting. I would actually like to see the performance cars (Camaro/GTO) on Alpha, given 2 things: 1) I'm able to fit comfortably in them and 2) They offer a V8. I will never buy something like a Camaro or GTO with anything less.

Just an FYI, The breakdown of votes: Chevrolet, Mazda. The Chevrolet Malibu is the 2008 North American Car of the Year and the Mazda CX-9 the 2008 North American Truck of the Year. In case you're wondering, the vote tally broke down like this: Malibu (190 votes), Cadillac CTS (165) and Honda Accord (95). And for truck, Mazda CX-9 (201), Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid (140) and Buick Enclave (109). SOURCE: www.autoextremist.com *** I thought it was cool that the CTS beat the Accord as well and interesting that the Tahoe Hybrid beat the Enclave.

Okay, so I want to get the Zeta bits all in one place but I'm sure I don't have everything right. So correct me where I'm wrong. Zeta - Approved for production: Chevrolet: The Camaro Pontiac: The G8 Buick: Lucerne Replacement Cadillac: DTS replacement Zeta - Cancellations: Chevrolet: *The Impala, or a "large Chevrolet sedan" -- Has been rumored since 2005-ish, but was possibly shelved then/possible FWD replacement revealed in the UAW documents/Finally killed for sure by Lutz. This was an official program, right? After all it was assigned a code. Or was it just a design study? Pontiac: *G8 Sportwagon -- Was never officially greenlighted or announced and was killed for lack of market. *GTO -- Only in the rumor stage. Despite people saying that GM was doing clay mock ups back before Zeta was cancelled the first time, it never actually existed, right? (except in theory) Zeta - Rumor mill: Pontiac: *G8 ST -- To be announced maybe in New York. GMC: *Crewman concept -- To be shown in New York and gauged for public reaction, which means a good possibility of production. Buick: *Park Avenue to slot above the Lucerne. -- Was this merely rumor or was it refering to the Lucerne program or is it BS? *Coupe or Convertible (Riviera/Velite) -- I'm pretty sure this was just straight rumor, right? Cadillac: *CTS replacement -- (Eventually) *ULS -- Word was that it would be on an extended version of Zeta. I know the rumor mill has been buzzing, but nothing solid yet, right? Believe it or not, Opel was even showing some promise of producing real cars at one point. That was when they put out their best concept: But alas, they wimped out....

Comparing Opel to Holden is apples to oranges... 'Twasn't too long ago that we were hearing "GM Europe has record setting loss" and "European brands at an all time low in marketshare" Everybody has skeletons in their closet. Maybe this really is a battle of egos... Maybe Forster and Reuss are fighting over who will take uncle Bob's place when he flys away to save another corporation. Therefore, PCS maybe knew about the Reuss promotion and bases his hate on that instead of the division. But uncle Bob mobilized Reuss at Holden anyway as a springboard...

Well.... Designing cars after fish certainly helped GM in the 60's And apparently designing them after bloated dolphins and small whales is helping Toyota now. So why not? :AH-HA_wink:

Sexy, sexy... Oh look GM.... It's a car company with balls! 'Betcha wish you still had a set of those, right?

I'm gonna call on the GMT355 thing. Sure, they'll be updated. But anyone with a brain can see that they are too small to compete with the market that the Ute(s) would appeal to. It would take a whole redesign for that to happen and, with things the way they are, I doubt GM would be willing to sink that money into the platform as opposed to just spreading the Zeta variants around. I don't think anything has really changed, honestly. GM do Brazil has had control of small trucks for a while, the G8 wagon and RWD Impala were never given the official greenlight. And the GTO/Monaro was never even more than a thought. PCS is just having fun with things that were going to happen anyway. To think that Lutz is losing ground is remiss IMO, because if he were, I think he'd resign and I don't think his buddy Reuss would be in line to replace him. Like it or not, even an enthusiast like Lutz (and you and me) knows whats good for business and what is a waste. The key to it is walking that fine line in the middle. I'm still confident that GM leadership can do that as long as they don't get too irrational. Here's a thought: maybe some of these peripheral programs are being put on hold to dump more resources into the Volt. Once we have that little mileage jewel and it's 'friends' we maybe can put some of these programs back on the map.

That fascinates me about Lutz comments... He says "We need to learn to build enthusiasm around cars that will get us to that 35 MPG target" or whatever... Then in the same breath, they cancel the G8 wagon. WELL BOB, YOU EVER THINK OF APPLYING THAT IDEA TO SUVS? YOU CAN BRING THE G8 WAGON OVER AND LAUNCH A CAMPAIGN TO GET ALL THOSE SUV DRIVERS EXCITED ABOUT THE EXCITEMENT DIVISION AND MAKE THAT 35MPG TARGET EASIER! But, I'm sure the SUVs are still money in the bank, where the wagon doesn't gross as much and (depending on currency) could even swing into the negative. Maybe something else played into the wagon story. Lutz is blaming it on demand and CAFE, but maybe, just maybe, capacity is limited and GM wanted to export more Utes instead of exporting the Ute and the wagon. They could probably X amount of Utes and wagons or X amount of 2 different types of Utes. Me thinks the business side might be coming out now. And I don't think the story of Zeta or the G8 wagon is over.

Apparently we're doing the compliment sandwich thing with Zeta today.... First the news of the never confirmed Monaro/GTO and now the good news that we might get 2 Utes... 1) I hope the GMC version is styled differently from the ST 2) I certainly hope it isn't the future of all large trucks... Some of us need to actually USE a truck for truck things such as camping, towing, running over Toyota Yari, etc.

Freakin' SWEET!

Exactly! GM has been making such progress and I just don't want to see them screw that up. Especially over something that would so easily be remedied.

My eventual fear is that the Camaro will be killed again and the G8 (and possibly Pontiac with it) will be disposed of without a second thought. If GM were to phase out Pontiac, that might be enough right now for me to give them the middle finger in the first place. If GM truly needed these cuts to survive, then I wouldn't mind. But they need to stop freaking out like some damn little fru fru dog and devise a plan that will work while sticking to it. They can get through this without destroying more of the company or its heritage.

:rotflmao: Oh wait, you're serious

I like it!

And too damn tepid.

I don't really understand why... If anything, you need to be worrying about the trucks. But see, instead GM seems to be taking the easy way out. Screw the enthusiasts for the sake of truck sales instead of actually innovating and balancing the portfolio. More proof that Zeta is very much alive. If that is indeed the case (which I think it isn't) then it is very bad news. Make 'em nicer and better built. Naturally Umm, what?!?! Welp, there goes the Hummer franchise... Or, basically, everything that will supposedly die in 7-8 years. As far as Sigma... I guess Cadillac could continue to update it (I like the idea that it is Cadillac exclusive, or maybe could become Buick and Cadillac exclusive) as long as it doesn't get dated, which I fear it will/is.

Is this really news? Last I heard, a future Monaro/GTO was just a pipe dream anyway... Nothing had ever been greenlighted, IIRC. For now... This could just be a hiatus until they sort the CAFE out. Remember; Bob Lutz is the same man that announced the cancellation of NA Zeta back in the day and look what happened. A lot of this could be posturing. That'll NEVER work unless it remains a Chevrolet... Everyone knows that. Speaking of writing on the wall... I'm pretty sure GM wouldn't have promoted Reuss (The future GM head honcho) to Holden unless the operation had a bright future. If it didn't, they would essentially be sending their leading man into a dead end. www.notgonnahappen.com This is good and bad. Zeta still exists at least and still seems to be a part of the plan. And I'm not so sure it's a bad thing to play on the side of caution right now. As many Zeta critics have warned, NOT ALL OF GM's CARS NEED TO BE BIG and/or RWD. I hate seeing some of the Zetas go more than anyone knows, *BUT* if GM is to survive, it must have a balanced portfolio. This si the same thing they've been struggling with for 15 years now. I would love to see a RWD Impala, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't sell the volume it sells now (I think this factored in more than CAFE) The public has a positive image of the car and with a redesign, (Remember, the current car dates back at least to MS2000 W-Body) I'm betting fleet sales will be replaced with retail share. Not to mention, it might conflict with Buick some... And I'd rather see Buick stay alive than see Chevrolet pad it's pockets with 50,000 or so more sales. My main concern right now is Pontiac. Pontiac needs a future, badly. Zeta could still be it; after all, what exactly will Cadillac ride on in the years to come? I don't really buy the idea that Zeta can't get to 35 MPG or close. Unless it either 1) is as heavy as lead -or- 2) Is chock full of 6.2L 19 MPG V8s. There is absolutely NO reason why the 3.6L couldn't be used in the program along with diesels and hybrids. As for Alpha: I'm fine with it on a few conditions 1) I can fit my 6'9"/350 ass in it (Something I can't do with Kappa) 2) It offers V8s and 3) It is given to Pontiac and/or Holden, where it belongs. Cadillac can use it, but they need not develop it. I still think GM is overreacting. Sure it is... You can innovate or limit quantity which will benefit GM either way. And that's the fukt up part. 1) The market will dictate what it wants, even if it means not buying new. 2) It's Washingtons problem to solve, not bankrupt Detroits. 3) It'll never happen in the numbers that some hope for.

The past few years have been very tough on a lot of us. But by god, we waived the GM/Detroit flag the whole time. Now, just as things seem to be getting better and going right, the idiots in Washington screw us out of the treasure. (sounds familiar, right?) If GM abandons enthusiasts, then I will abandon GM. And I hate to do that since it isn't really their fault that all of this happened. I don't think it will happen, in fact all I think GM needs is a more balanced portfolio and we can have our cake and eat it too. But if I do abandon GM I'll continue to preserve the legacy that was the company (and thus, america) through restoration and rescue. When they come to take that legacy away from me, I'll punch the time clock for good (Just like my sig says) and hopefully take at least 4 or 5 of those communist b*st*rds with me.

Funny you should mention this... My GF and I just adopted a designer dog. We got him from an animal rescue here in Charlotte (All of my dogs are rescues; will never buy a pure bred) His name is Maximus Hernandez and he is a "Mexican Hotdog' (Half Chihuahua, half Dachshund) I'm a big fan of Dachshunds, have owned them for most of my life. But the one my parents currently own had the common back problems and is now partially paralyzed as a result. Given that we have lots of steps in our APT, we didn't want to risk harming a perfectly good Dachshund (Steps are one of the leading causes of their back problems) so we looked for a mix and found this.

I know the feeling man... I've almost thought about just selling the Focus and getting old stuff (Some show cars and a nice daily driver) It's be cheaper, the cars would actually appreciate as opposed to depreciate and the cars actually have personality. That's one reason I hate the asians so much.... They began the homogeneous car wars and when the media jumped to their side, no one was ALLOWED to be different anymore. For example; look at the Malibu. Sure it's attractive and competent enough, but it's basically the same car as a Camry or Accord. Blandish, 'big face' monochrome styling, 4 doors, the 'must have' DOHC engine and a toned down interior. I honestly don't think it'll be as bad as some predict though... Remember: we will innovate through this, the car guys within GM, Ford, Chrysler, BMW, MB, et al. are just too passionate for that not to happen.

I'm not blindly following anything. I'm being a General Motors fan and expelling the knowledge that the media (You know, those people that everyone here whines about me calling out) has passed on. If someone has issues with the facts, then they should take it to the source instead of wasting my time. My point is not whether the quote is valid. It's more that certain members will try to use things (such as this) to make me look bad just because they don't agree with me. FWIW, my original post congratulated Ford (Mazda) for their win, but that was overlooked in favor of some pissing match that I've won countless times in the past. (And will continue to win until I'm banned)

This is really not a big surprise... Wagons have been "out" for years... Not to mention gas prices (which is still 60% BS, excuse-wise) the falling dollar, low, low numbers in the first place. I really lost hope for the G8 wagon when Dodge announced plans to cancel the Magnum. GM seesm to never want to lead into any segment (Even now) and the fact that pretty much the ONLY competitor just got cancelled because of low sales didn't leave much hope. IMO, the program was 1) extraneous and 2) a bit ahead of it's time. In the future, I think it might re-emerge and succeeed though. Just put it on the back burner and send us the ST. If the ST gets cancelled, then I'll be pissed, because it'll definitely sell. As for Zeta; maybe GM *is* having to trim the fat a bit on that platform. We had rumors of at least 2 Cadillacs, a Buick, 3 Pontiacs and 2 Chevrolets. One of the Chevies could be pitched almost as well FWD (Eventhough I'm not a fan of that) And one of the Pontiacs likely wouldn't sell (And the last thing this struggling division needs is another GTO like debacle) The Zeta Caddies are a given, otherwise the division will go bust. The Camaro is a given because it's such a PR hit. The Buick *SHOULD* be a given, and, dare I say, other configurations considered? And the 2 other Pontiacs should do well also.

5 Minute search: SOURCE: http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/14282...4wd.html?al=120 SOURCE: (Automotive News) http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...hl=tahoe+hybrid Once again; I'm just reiterating what we've heard from day one.

I actually really like the design elements... the overall vehicle is cool, but nothing I'd buy. I think the reason I like it so much is becuse it reminds me a lot of these: And a bit of this too: