CARBIZ

Although you make a good point, it is the collective piling on of the supreme efforts of every car maker on Earth, assaulting the North American market that has created this death by a thousand cuts. Believe me when I say, the consumer is getting to the point where they either a) don't care or b) are starting to believe this $h!. As I have tirelessly pointed out many, many times: buying a $25k car and sending the majority of that money overseas has a dramatic spin off effect on our economy and future. It is not in the same league as buying a pair of shoes made in China or Thailand - not by a long shot. Judging by the almost weekly outbreaks of these debates on this website, it is a contentious issue, but worse - there are supposedly intelligent people out there who are either starting to buy this BS or (due to their own hidden agendas) are perpetuating it.

Too bad she doesn't live in Canada............ 30 mpg (verified with my first two tanks of gas), leather steering wheel, sunroof, 8 speakers, 120 fierce ponies under the hood, but best of all: 320/mo. and its NOT a lease! And it is a hatchback...that was a requirement for us so the dog can jump in the back!

But the 'Vette is built in the States., to use one example.......If it was priced at $C65k two years ago when the $C was at .80, shouldn't the price have come down, like 20%? GM of Canada has to 'buy' the vehicles from GM of America in CANADIAN DOLLARS, which have risen in value by 50%. I understand that manufacturers cannot adjust their prices for every single penny that our two currencies fluctuate - but, HELLFIRE, our currency is up nearly 50%!! The media here is finally awakening to this fact and starting to raise a stink. American manufacturers are not adjusting their prices and are, in fact, gouging us. This is one of the reasons that our price of gasoline has only gone up 10% in the last couple years: since the world market prices oil in US dollars, and the Canadian dollar has risen almost as fast as the price of oil (in fact, BECAUSE of the price of oil, largely), we have been shielded by the doubling of the price of a barrel of oil. If our dollar hadn't risen so much, we would be paying $1.60 a litre, instead of .98. Still, that's too high, considering we are a net exporter of oil.

What do 'incomes' have to do with it? I am talking about a Corvette coupe that sells for, what $45k in the U.S? Our dollar is nearly at par, so shouldn't the 'Vette be $46k here? No, they are more like $70k still. Somebody is making money off us. The LTZ Tahoe stickers for $56k here - what does it sell for in the U.S.?

but the truth is, there rarely is any such thing as a paradigm shift. The Model T was nothing original, it just put together a lot of techniques (such as standardized fittings and the assembly line process) that other manufacturers had pioneered. The Mustang just happened to be a better looking car, bigger hit and cheaper price than the earlier Corvair Monza; GM had been flirting with small 'pony' cars but Ford put it all together in one package and MARKETED it properly. Even the minivan was hardly revolutionary - again, Chrysler happened to be in the right place at the right time. VW (and even Toyota) had 'minivans' earlier, they were just hadn't hit a bulls-eye with the market yet. So Pontiac came out with transistorized ignition in 1963. Big deal. It would be more than a decade before anyone learned how to mass-produce it cheaply and reliably. There are lots of 'firsts' out there that Detroit (and others) can be proud of, but often it isn't the true innovator that figures out how to make what they discovered work effectively. The E-flex system will only be a paradigm shift if it truly is electric and no drive from an internal combustion motor - and even then only IF, it can run on battery power for most trips that the owner takes. Otherwise, it will just be another one of (many) interesting technologies on the horizon. Let's just wait and see.

Sure! Tit for tat, though. :AH-HA_wink:

Do you realize that the fake wood is a no-cost option in the Impala? We rarely order it. It is UGLY, I agree. The brushed 'titanium' is a far better look and the 'ebony' interior. Depending on what your current Venture payment is, you may want to get out of your lease now and take advantage of the 'clearance' stuff happening on the '07s. For example, the Impala has a $1,500 'stackable' credit and 0.5% lease rate. The same would be true of Buick and Pontiac offerings. Alternatively, by the time your lease is up in January, the '08 Malibu should finally be available in some quantity. I've sat in them and they are stunning - even in the 'cocoa' interior, and I usually hate browns. You'll find the cabin space of the Malibu will be better than the Impala/Allure and the3.6 is SWEET. Just thought I'd point that out, is all. Me, if I won the lottery tomorrow I'd be off to the very next Barret-Jackson auction.

One can only hope that if (and that is a big IF) GM has the technology licked already, they will keep their mouths shut and not give the competition the heads up! Let everyone scoff at their hubris - as long as the competition runs around in circles in the mean time. One of the favorite themes running through contemporary Science Fiction are scenarios where First Contact creates a technological 'bounce'; that is, even though the other sentience tries to keep technology out of our hands, just KNOWING something can be done makes it happen so much faster.

I was thinking along these same lines. Although I hate it when GM announced plans 3-4 years ahead (Camaro, SSR, anyone?), they are in a fight for their lives and are trying to steal some of the thunder away from Toyota. You can't blame them for that. GM certainly must have learned somethign from the EV-1 program, and I suspect there is a lot more they aren't telling us about how far along the Volt is. The fact that Toyota and Honda are both ramping up their PR machines strikes me as proof of this. Toyotas spies must be getting a little panicked. GM has had a lot of partnerships with companies like Ballard and others, so I suspect (hope?) they have picked up a few tricks along the way. And I, for one, will always bet on American ingenuity over Asian copy-cat tactics any day. The original ideas have always come from the West, while the East has only learned how to sell the copied products back to us at a cheaper price - and we are stupid enough to let them do it.

I would never sell on PRICE. As you are probably aware, the biggest whiners about price, the customer whose ONLY consideration is price, is the best customer to walk away from. It is one of those wierd truisms in this business. The customer who haggles and fights over $5, then complains about everything during and after the delivery process: a nightmare from beginning to end. I have learned the hard way to punt those customers quick. MY CSI bonus is worth more to me than the flat commission I may or not get from them! I will, however, sell on Value every time. By pointing out all the things that GM does right (better warranty, more standard features, better dealer network - which matters a lot in this tundra called Canada!) and gently pointing out some of the competition's recent foibles, all I can do is assist the customer into making an informed decision, based on what is important to them. When someone is paying $300 a month for insurance (not uncommon around here), cost of maintenance and that nasty word 'payment' come into harsh focus. I agree with your remarks on the Wal-Mart thing. It is, in my estimation, one of the reasons GM is getting squeezed so badly in market share: they have allowed Honda and Toyota to occupy a 'higher' rung on the ladder in many cases, while Korean cars are squeezing from the rear. It would be easy to argue that the only reason Chrysler has survived this past several years of turmoil is because they have, for the most part, allowed some interesting products on the market, which has glossed over more serious problems at that company. Hiding behind Daimler didn't hurt, either. Unfortunately, GM did stumble with more than a few of their products several years ago. It isn't that they produced 'crap,' but that they produced major yawns in the market place. For us selling Chevy in Canada (where, technically, EVERY make is an import), it is worse because GM's biggest selling 'hits' the GMT-900s, HHR and others are not selling as well here, largely due to our higher gasoline prices and 'sophistication' (to use the word of one former customer as she lept from Olds to BMW) of our market. I see encouraging signs from Detroit, with its most recent offerings. Yes, there are still cracks in the foundation (UAW talks, too many dealers, etc.), but with each generation of GM vehicle (from the '04 Malibu, to G6 to Aura, for example), we are seeing some signs that Detroit 'gets it' after all. At the other end of things, both Honda and Toyota are getting a little cocky, too. We hear it from customers who complain Honda dealers won't 'deal' to constant Detroit bashing at those dealers. I do despair at the lack of innovative marketing - at least up here. With this entire iPod/gas card giveaway - well, it was a huge flop. GM will drag out all kinds of BS first year marketing graphs and figures to confuse the dealers, but those who claimed they sold vehicles from that 'giveaway' are either lying or exaggerating. People cannot be 'bribed' into checking out models on the show room floor. GM has to fire their entire marketing team and get back to basics. That, and just keeping the momentum going with the product releases should be enough on their own to stem the market share slide. As I have said numerous times, I believe that GM will bottom out around 20-22% market share, with Toyota leveling out around 15% or so - and that is nothing to be ashamed of. I certainly feel a lot more comfortable about my future career plans now than I did two years ago when everyone was running around saying "GM is going bankrupt!"

...and won't the clowns who paid full list 6 months ago feel stupid? Could this be the beginning of the end for Toyota? For shame! What will this discounting do to the Throne of Resale? Oh, that's right, the usual pundits will just find ways to spin it and justify any prices that Japan Inc shoves down our throats.

With GM 'rushing' the Volt into production and both Toyota and Hondra ramping up the rhetoric on their technologies, I think we are on the verge of some pretty interesting technologies. It has puzzled me to no end that the internal combustion engine has limped along for the past 30 years without any substantial breakthroughs. I never want to give up personal transportation, but I can see that the future cannot sustain a world-wide increase in standards of living that will result in increased production of fuel-burning vehicles everywhere. Look at what is happening in the emerging markets of Asia and Brazil: if they rise to even half our standard of living, the resulting tens of millions more personal vehicles on the roads will implode this planet. We simply have to find alternate ways to propel our vehicles and I am happy to see anyone, even Honda, uping the ante on this endeavor.

We agree on many things, you and I, but you love to spin things to the negative all the time. I agree that perception is everything; however, I live in the real world and being as we own two Toyota stores, I get to see the reports that you seem to live and die by, plus I get to work in the field with the customers real attitudes and concerns. Yes, most people are 'risk' averse and, yes, the Accord is a fine automobile, but so was the Alero. The Alero's biggest failing was its awful fit and finish - I will grant that. I had a GM exec in the show room explaining to me why the Alero's welds and bonds were crap, compared to the upcoming (at that time) Malibu. I think we both agree that GM fell behind with the fit and finish end of things in the late '90s and early '00s, but that did not automatically make their cars CRAP. Not by a long shot. The Alero GL and GLS actually were pretty fun to drive - so much so that our long term new car manager, who had been in the business 25 years would drive nothing but. I keep turning everything back to value, because it galls me to see people justifying hefty purchases. I mean, if the Alero is so crappy and the Honda so much better, why stop at the Honda? Shouldn't people then just go out and buy a BMW, because certainly by your measurements that is even better, and so what if it is another $5k more than the Accord? Why don't you come up to Toronto some time? We pay 50% more for fuel, double the insurance and have worse traffic than California - all in a city that is supposedly 'world class.' Top all of that off with the fact that the car makers are sucking us dry by gouging us on every vehicle they sell here. (Or would you justify paying $27k for a 4 cylinder Accord, because that is what they sell for up here!) I do not EVER pretend to tell you how things are in La La Land (aka California), but I do know how things are run up here in this Over-Taxed Land of the Infnitely Conciliatory Canadian. The Honda will cost more in insurance, repairs and maintence. There is NO WAY IN HELL you can justify that. If you don't believe me, then climb onto DesRosiers website and ask him. He conducted a study a few years back that proved more American cars were still on the road and that they lasted longer, and when asked point blank by Jim Kenzie (who writes for a lot of media up here) why the imports 'apparently' hold their value better when they, in fact, rusted out and fell apart, Dennis DesRosiers was at a loss to explain that. PERHAPS IN THE DREAMY MOUNTAIN VISTAS OF CALIFORNIA, THE GLORIOUS HONDAS AND TOYOTAS THAT YOU ESPOUSE TO BE THE GREATEST ENGINEERING MARVELS OF ALL TIME LAST 35 YEARS, BUT UP HERE THEY RUST AWAY AND DIE IN 10. I challenge you to find anything with the name Datsun on it in Ontario. Not everyone makes the six figures you love to brag about, running your multi million dollar company, so wasting the family pension plan (and sending that money to Tokyo, BTW) makes absolutely no sense to me. But as long as turn coats in the industry talk out of both sides of their mouth, it will just confuse the issue and sheeple will continue to blow their wads on over-priced Jap crap and we can all just mortgage our kids future. How's that for a Sunday morning rant?

GM has already tried that up here. For the past 18 months, they have tried 3 launches of a free iPod campaign where coming in to drive a GM vehicle would result in a free iPod being given to the customer. For the most part it just attracted flakes and coupon clippers - mooches who wanted a free iPod. Then they tried giving away a $100 gas card if the person would come in and drive a GM vehicle. Same result. First of all, giveaways stink of desperation. Secondly, North Americans are dumb and until the 'intelligenstia' gets bored or wakes up to how much they are being ripped of by Japan Inc, the perception will exist that domestic cars are crap and imported ones are good. Lutz & Co. have gotten religion about the 'perception' of quality, as you can see with the upcoming Malibu, the current GMT-900s, etc., so once this wave of vehicles washes through the market the consumers will come around. It will just take time, is all. Let us get through the UAW blackmail first. Once that is behind us, and GM continues to unveil more products like the Enclave and others that meet the approval of the jaded media, more and more housewives will escort their husbands by the short and curlies to their local GM and Ford dealer to tell them what to buy there.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. So whoopdie doo - a 2005 Accord is better than a 2001 Olds: it should be because it is 4 years newer. Isn't progress neat? I have had dozens of people who were paying $430 a month to lease a $36k Alero GLS buy out their vehicles because they were such a damned good value. I would not make an argument whether the Alero should have been stickered at $36k (Canadian, BTW) back in '01, but with a $2,000 delivery credit and .9% lease rate, they were about the same payment as a base Accord 4 cylinder at the time. So who would have gotten the better deal? Factor in your 4 trips a year to the Honda dealer (versus 2 for the Olds) and a lot of other stuff and I would bet a paycheck that the Olds had lower COST OF OWNERSHIP than the Accord. But keep drinking that kool aid, sir. I guess the 30 or so of my customers that I sold new '98 Cavaliers and Malibus to who are still driving their unreliable pieces of junk are crazy then, eh? Before your wife goes blowing your retirement fund on her next purchase, you might want to try the Malibu (07 or upcoming model, doesn't matter) again. If you think spending $5k more up front doesn't somehow factor into how much the car is worth in 4 or 5 years, then I want to talk to your math teachers. I have to say one thing about your wife's remarks, though: I do notice import apologists blindly sticking to their perceptions, even in the face of growing evidence to the contrary. Don't forget that for a number of years now, even in JD Powers surveys, the quality 'gap' between Honda and GM has been about a half point: that is a half problem per car. And those problems could be anything from people bitching about locations of cupholders to transmission problems (like in the Accord.) Is that half point worth $5 grand?

Would gazing at the 21 year old neighbor bent over washing his car count?

It's interesting how you have to read to the very end of the piece to get anything that actually resembles research and is not just another Toyota press release. I would have hoped for some proof with figures that Toyota is on track to selling 200k of these turds. Last I heard they were only projected to hit 150k this model year. Anyone out there have more up to date information, since Reuters obviously can't be bothered to look it up?

My hand writing is not the greatest - and I am a leftie. Just shoot me. Frankly, most (if not all) of psychiatry is BULLSH$%T. My mother packed me off to two quacks when I was a kid. The first (when I was 8 or 9) because I was acting out against my sister. That quack analysed my drawings (boy, did I draw a lot: HELLO - its called escaping from a hell hole of a family!) and since I drew a lot of chesty females, he dared to venture that I was heterosexual. ???WTF??? Okay, I'll give that nut a bit of a break because it was the late '60s, but perhaps the reason I was drawing chesty females is because a) I had no male role models in my life and b) I was 'identifying' with women. Years later, my mother remarked that she would like to look that doctor up and get a refund. Then when I was 15, my father 'discovered' that I was gay, was threatening to kick me out of the house AND my BF in my grade 10 class suddenly stopped talking to me, so I took a bottle of prescription sleeping pills and spent a few days in the hospital. That quack that I was ordered to see for a year or so only wanted to talk about my relationship with my mother and sisters (who, BTW, I didnt' even live with at the time I tried to off myself!) Oh, gee - could my wanting to be DEAD have had anything to do with feeling isolated and alone? Being gay at 15, in 1977 was not the happiest place. This was long before Ellen, Will & Grace, Queer Eye or anything on TV or the media to suggest there was anyone out there who felt the same way I did. Oh, yeah - I had Anita Bryant's rants to watch on TV! These studies are crap. Where do these clowns get the funding for this $h!? This (and many other total BS things I have witnessed in the media) is why I don't trust studies or the media at all. I have witnessed historical events that were totally fabricated in the media, so when I go off on rants about Toyota paying off the Toronto Star, I am not kidding. These things happen all the time. Color me skeptical, but I truly wonder how 'free' our media and universities are when I see total BS getting the light of day. This is more insidious than just another light news day. There are parents all over North America now, desperately watching the way their 5 year old is walking today, thanks to these ass clowns that were given an office and a computer.

I am going to throw my Canadian perspective into the ring here: how the f%$k does GM justify charging $38k for an Acadia up here when the $C just hit .97 U.S.??? We are getting ripped off like crazy. Perhaps if GM stopped charging $80k for the Corvette and $60k for the LTZ Tahoe they might regain lost market share up here and reverse the tide against Toyota and Honda. Or do they think Canada is stupid enough to finance their renaissance in the U.S.?

It was a cursed day! After spending years preaching to customers that they should never EVER buy a car, but lease it: I got my face rubbed in my own advice yesterday, too. Less than a month ago, I broke down and bought an Optra 5: the deal was just too good to pass up. 72 months, 0%, free sunroof, employee pricing, 700 visa points - the payment is less than a lease! I figured, hell, I will drive it for a year or so, then the BF can drive it when I get bored of it. (He only likes small cars anyway). Managers can piss off about dog hair in the back of the car (yes, it is DOG hair, not something else) because it is MY car. Well, yesterday afternoon (in the pouring rain) a blond woman (who lowered the bar for blondes everywhere!), tried to make a left turn from the middle of 3 lanes. I skidded in the rain, striking her 5 year old Sunfire in the middle of the rear driver's side passenger door. My f'ing car doesn't even have 1,500 miles on it yet!!!! When we pulled over to the side street, she batted her eyes and couldn't understand why I was so pissed: she is an insurance agent and said that she didn't realize there was a lane beside her and would pay for the damages. Why am I pissed? Because, I said, I am in the car business and I know how much an accident can depreciate the $h! out of a car. Now, if the BF gets bored of the car in 3 or 4 years, we will lose maybe 2 grand because of her stupidity! I am pissed because the car is brand new and because I didn't follow my own advice and LEASE the damned thing. The damage is minor (front right facia is scratched to hell, fog light broken, right headlight lense assembly will have to be replaced) but it will effect trade value. $h! and double $h!. She better not think for one moment that we will be putting bondo and repainting the facia either - the car is 3 1/2 weeks old!!!!! Eight years ago, when another ditzy chick ran a red light and slammed into the front left quarter panel, doing $7k damage to my (lease) Blazer, I did not give a $h! - because it was LEASED. When the three years were up, you can bet that vehicle was dropped off! I hate it when people from the suburbs come downtown to sight see and don't know their way around. Most of all, I am grateful that the BF was in the car with me, so there can be no nagging on his part that I was in some way responsible for this accident!

I have always told the bosses that high CSI scores have nothing to do with the sales process or the delivery, but everything to do with how well the customer is 'managed' after the sale. The 'top box score' is all or nothing: just like binary code. Our bonuses are based on that. Personally, if a customer was 'very satisfied,' I would be thrilled; however, no bonus. I've never resorted to bribery, but I have warned customers, "I know where you live!"

Perhaps next time you should do the interviewing. You have to ask yourself WHY these dealers cannot keep new hires. I would ask them how long the average salesperson has been on the floor. Even around here, there are dealers that have reputations of being 'puppy mills': they just hire 4 or 5 guys at a time and see who sinks or swims. I would never want to be part of an organization like that - nor an organization that did not ask for my resume, selling ability, CSI scores or seemed to show any interest whatsoever in my ability to sell anything. I have been at this dealership for 10 years - and I am one of the junior guys. Two guys have been here 20 years! Selling is not telling. A lot of people mistakenly think that because they 'love' cars or 'enjoying talking to people' that they have what it takes. Once upon a time, I thought that way, too.

Fourth dealership? In how many years? EEK! How BAD are the dealerships down your way? I'm not trying to be argumentative, (please believe me), but it NEVER looks good on a resume when someone hops around from dealer to dealer.

Well, maybe the guy's BF just spent two hours spanking him! GOOD GAWD: this sounds about as accurate as a CR survey. 60%? That's little better than a coin toss!

The entire Universe does not revolve around YOUR opinions. GM's marketing is done by REGIONS. Of all the end of the year clearances I have been involved in (ten so far), 2007 has been the quietest. There is absolutely NOTHING on the Silverado/Avalanche/Tahoe or any other truck, other than the Colorado/Canyon. We have a $500 RDC and 3.9% financing. BIG DEAL. I have Avalanche customers freaking because their lease payment is going UP $100 a month, compared to their 2004. We are not seeing huge RDCs on specific models to clear them out; in fact, the Malibu only has $2k and it is being phased out in a month!!! The only 'unusual' incentive activity going on around HERE is the 72 mo/0% incentives on the Optra, which is only to help us compete with Suzuki and Hyundai. Since you guys don't even have the Optra down there, it shouldn't cause any quantum shifts or phasal distortions in SolCal. This is not about broken promises. Perhaps in YOUR region of the planet (where pot seems to reign supreme), GM is giving away vehicles, but in Ontario (which BTW, is still Canada's biggest market, for whatever that is worth) there have been no fire sales. We are well aware that GM and Toyota are tied for market share in the 5 million plus trading area of Toronto, and for now GM seems to be content to let it sit at that. It isn't a matter of whether your are right and I am wrong, my friend - only that business is clearly conducted differently in Canada than in your neck of the woods. ALL FLEET SALES GO THROUGH THE DEALERS HERE. Since there are no subvented leases, rates, 'virtual coupons,' visa points or any other incentives - other than a lousy $500 or $1,000 'fleet rebate' to the dealer, I fail to see how GM would be losing money on fleet business. And the auctions in and around Toronto have been hurting for Impalas and Malibus these days. Our dealer principle was warned about this 6 or 7 months ago - and it has proven true.