evok

Now that sounds like something Guion would say. A decision has not been made only that the CARB waiver issue will be revisted.

More importantly, the laws of chemistry prevail here.

CO2 is a direct product of burning fuel. The Volt has a tail pipe, costs money, and CARB is not regulated as far as I know on cost benefit analysis. Missed that one. The Robert's Supreme Court said the EPA can regulate CO2. PS How is the housing market and budget in CA?

Regulating CO2 is not a back door way to regulated fuel economy but a direct way to do it. The CARB waiver loophole should be yanked from the 35+ year old legislation. There is a reason why there is a federal government with an agency that has the authority to regulate such things. I am giving BO the benefit of the doubt to revisit the Bush decision from a year ago because of his campaign promise. Yet I "hope" he determines the Bush decision was the correct decision and it is upheld. I assure anyone, his decision to grant the CARB waiver or not will tell a lot about the man and how "pragmatic" he may be. There is only one correct answer on this issue and that is to uphold the Bush decision because of the new CAFE requirements and the Energy Security Act 2007 requiring 35 mpg by 2020. This is not a policy decision with no correct answer but one that should be driven by the facts as BO said in his press conference on the issue.

GM is dieing. I cannot even relay the overall cost cutting the company is undergoing right now. PCS said a while ago voice mail was turned off at the plants. Well, it will be turned off for the rest of the organization soon. As I was told, the savings is about a half million per year. The company is selling off their car collection to raise money. The ST is a money drain right now they just cannot afford. It is worse than I can express. The US congress is irrelevant in this.

I understand your dissatisfaction. However the decision was likely based on pure dollars and cents. The G8 was a bust prior to the financial crisis. Now it really is irrelevant. The ST would be throwing good money after bad.

GM for all practical purposes is in bankruptcy. The US market collapsed from 17 m to 13 m vehicles a year and currently running at a 9 m rate. Hard decisions have to be made including many sacrifices. The market and manufacturers are teetering on oblivion right now. The situation is dire. As for GM the Pontiac ST is the least of their worries.

It is called a very nice "compromise"! Hence I got one. Plus I was told today the vehicle is a knock out in person and to drive also.

I like it.

Oh Buickman - go sell some cars.

Just like British Rover.

On or before March 31, 2009, the Company shall submit to the President’s Designee a written certification and report detailing the progress made by the Company and its subsidiaries in implementing the Restructuring Plan. The report shall identify any deviations from the Restructuring Targets and explain the rationale for these deviations, including an explanation of why such deviations do not jeopardize the Borrower’s long-term viability. The report shall also include evidence satisfactory to the President’s Designee that the following events have occurred: 1. Approval of the Labor Modifications by the members of the Unions; 2. Receipt of all necessary approvals of the VEBA Modifications other than regulatory and judicial approvals, provided that the Company must have filed and be diligently prosecuting applications for any necessary regulatory and judicial approvals; and 3. The commencement of an exchange offer to implement the Bond Exchange. The President’s Designee will review the Restructuring Plan Report and other materials submitted by the Company to determine whether the Company and its subsidiaries have taken all steps necessary to achieve and sustain the long-term viability, international competitiveness and energy efficiency of the Company and its subsidiaries in accordance with its Restructuring Plan. If the President’s Designee determines that these standards have been met, he will so certify (the “Plan Completion Certification”).

That is the significant difference between your "opinion" and my "insight".

Another reason why a GM bankruptcy is not a reasonable option, their debt is insured by CDSs. Someone (banks) would be on the hook to cover billions of GMs debt. Just think what Lehman did to the financial markets when it tumbled. We are all still paying for that. NEW YORK, Dec 19 (Reuters) - The cost to insure the debt of General Motors Corp (GM.N) and Ford Motor Co (F.N) and their finance units fell after President George W. Bush announced a $17.4 billion government loan program on Friday to bail out ailing U.S. carmakers. Credit default swaps insuring GM's debt fell to an upfront cost of 76 percent the sum insured for five years, in addition to annual payments of 5 percent, from 81 percent upfront on Thursday, according to CMA DataVision. That means it costs $7.6 million paid upfront to insure $10 million in debt, in addition to payments of $500,000 per year. Ford's credit default swaps also fell to 68 percent upfront, from 70 percent on Thursday, CMA data shows. GMAC LLC's credit default swaps dropped to 46 percent upfront from 49 percent on Thursday, and Ford Motor Credit Co fell to 35 percent upfront from 37 percent, CMA said. (Reporting by Karen Brettell; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama) http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...20081219?rpc=44

They just did! Read between the line and factor in additional statements Bush made. "Under normal economic circumstances." I.e. no available credit, the economy in the Great Recession. The private sector would provide the DIP and the Judiciary branch of the Federal government would oversee the restructuring under a normal Chapter 11. They automaker just entered chapter 11 "in practice" with the executive branch of the government its bankruptcy judge, setting the terms. The only difference is the automakers do not face the stigma of being in "bankruptcy" since the public does not understand the word. The executive branch of the federal government just did under its TARP authority. If the conditions outlined in the agreement are not met, the government would call in the loans with the next likely step being Chapter 7 (In practice) as there will be no one else to step in to provide the DIP. I will steal a banking term as the government is "the lender of last resort".

No - you do not get it as GM is finished otherwise. The UAW and GM will live or die accordingly. In order for GM to file Chapter 11 they need a DIP and there is no one who will provide GM the money. The banks are not exactly lending money right now. First, IIRC 2003 or 2004 bond offering was convertible to equity. Currently the value of the bonds are trading 30 vents on a dollar. Formally transfering this unsecured debt to equity should be doable at 2/3rd. Second, GM is about to enter into a legal agreement with the Federal government with either the head of the Treasury or some car czar in charge. Beyond any rhetoric, the UAW gets it. With the unemployment rate approaching 10%, Obama would not side with the UAW and attempt last minute changes in the agreement as labor rate and legacy obligation paridy with the transplants is key for GMs survival. Insstead of waiting until 2010, it has to happen now. GM does not have the cash for the healthcare VEBA. Personally I believe at least 1/2 of GM's obligation backed by stock is very generous of the government. GM goes tits up the UAW gets nothing. Do you really think the UAW wants to walk into court and present their case to a bankruptcy judge? They do not have a leg to stand on. They are well aware of this because they see what happened over at Delphi. Delphi is still in bankrupcy over 3 years later because they cannot get the financing they need and may never get out of it. You can continue to believe what you want but I assure you, you do not grasp the nuances of the situation.

I do not think you understand the situation. First off Chrysler and GM are bankrupt today. Chrysler is valued at nothing by Damiler and GM's stock price is trading accordingly. In addition GM's debt has been rated at junk since 2005. For all practical purposes GM and Chrysler are about to enter into bankruptcy proceeding with the government providing the DIP financing. GM will enter into the equivalent of Chapter 11 restructuring with Chrysler entering Chapter 7 liquidation. In GM's case, the loan conditions place by the Treasury are reasonable and very consistent with what a bankrupcy judge would impose on suppliers, bond holders and labor. The value of current share holders will be wiped out as GM is force to dilute the shares for the above in addition to the warrants to be issued to the government. Also the loan money allocated to GM is consistent with the money they requested in their plan submitted to congress earlier in the month. I read the plan and believe it is reasonable and will get them through 2009. If GM cannot meet the conditions spelled out, they will enter Chapter 7 liquidation and the union, bond holders and money owed to the suppliers will be wiped out. As far as GM requiring additional money well that is possible and dependent on the state of the economy. That goes for every car company right now. More money was not put into the pot because the Treasury I believe is out of TARP money and congress needs to authorize the remaining $350 billion. That will not happen until Obama is sworn it. Chrysler? As I said in an earlier thread is done for. BTW on page one of this thread - regal posted a link to a good series of articles on what has been happening.

Sad - But inevitable and necessary given the state of the industry.

I am not aware of any such conditions place on them. It was discussed at the hearings but it was not even part of the draft bill that failed to gain congressional support. But sure, GM could keep the current G6 in the line up without spending money on it as long as it is legal to sell. That has been the plan. It just has always bothered me Pontiac got the hard top convertible when it would have made a perfect Buick and natural for a revival of the Riv. For a relatively small investment I would love to see GM do just that with the current vehicle. Plus Buick is considered more of a premium brand and warranted to 30k price.

You know I have been accused of worse.

No product in the pipeline. No staff No sales No money As it stands right now, Chrysler LLC is a shell and the buyouts last month gutted the company, permenantly damaging it from ever returning. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20081219-6.html Chrysler cannot meet the terms and conditions of loans. The company is already shut down and it is highly unlikely the operations will reopen in a month. The $4 billion the government will give them will go towards accounts payable (suppliers) then it is over. Chrysler will not have the cash to reopen its plants next month. By Chrysler paying off their suppliers now, it prevents an immediate shock to the supply chain that could set off a wave of banruptcies. That is where the bailout money is going. Think of it not as a loan but a subsidy. By April 1, 2009 Chrysler LLC will be broke.

Personally - If the numbers could justify it I would move the job shop that is the Solstice line to the Vette plant when XLR is axed and Willmington is finally put out of it misery. Kill the Sky and make the Solstice Coupe and Convertible the global vehicle. Under this senario Pontiac would consist of just the Solstice and G8 for the time being. The products either stand on their own or the brand goes away over time as sales dry up. As far as the Vibe and G6 Coupe/Vert I would give each a solid facelift and give them to Buick with the couple called Riviera. Depending on volume make it in China and import to the US. With Chrysler soon to go away, a Buick G6 convertible would make a nice addition for the FL crowd. If possible I would like to see the G6 get a cosmetic redo from the beltline down and adopt the Regal/Lacross interior if it is cheap just to bolt it right in.

Chrysler LLC will "cease" to be by April 1 - 2009.

No twisting here: a) It is called management and leadership. Just because RW has worked in the business for 30+ year I would not expect him to know how to design a turbo, a stamping press or every single financial instrument GMAC invested in. This goes for any CEO. Common sense. However, he recognized GM had a problem and brought in the talent to turn it around. Which he was on the cusp of doing with the recent releases. b) don't know. I go back to earlier posts. Getting the Camaro and Volt to market would be money better spent. c) Besides anecdotal theories, you have not brought anything to the table on the R-N deal helping them besides an arm to cry on. GM is requesting $4b to get through January. If R_N were a partner that money would have got them to January before hitting the tax payers up for money. Any partnership would not get at the root cause of their problems today which still remains the legacy cost and the debt associated with that. d) If not for the asset sales the company would have been broke years ago. RW or whoever may have been CEO would have done the exact same things to survive since it was their fudiciary obligation as trustee of the company. Plus the BOD approved all of it. e) First off Hummer is a legacy of Jack Smith and as I stated about cannot be removed and parted easily or if it ever will. To bad GM just cannot close down brands without the dealers getting their shorts in an uproar. Saab is another story and still might be a brand worth keeping. There is a bigger world than the US and according to the latest GM statements the brand was profitable before the collapse. Well all your other product selection fall into the too bad GM just cannot axe dealers and brands. 5+ years ago when product decisions were made, brand qualities were outlined as has been discussed on here forever. Given the contraints with regard to dealers and brands, it was a good strategy at the time. The 900s, well they were and still may be the only vehicle lineup generating a lot of revenue and allowed the company to stick around this long even under the current circumstances. With 5+ year long lead times, GM had to sit on old designes and arrange the portfolio given the support needed for the main brands. Hummer and SAAB programs are smaller expenses compared to the large programs. Astra is a bust because of exchange rates and would have been DOA at Pontiac. The Outlook, well that product didn't need to happen besides keeping revenue up at the dealer when the Ion got axed. f) Talk about cherry picking words. Chapter 11 will mean certain death for the company under a traditional filing with a lined up DIP. How is that viable? h) So was Nissan's. Out of the big companies Nissan was down more than GM. Yes GM for the last two months took a huge bath because of the credit crisis killing credit at GMAC. However, the whole industry tanked or collapsed as a whole with all the manufacturers expecting NA to be a blood bath. Varying degrees of disaster is still a disaster. As part of the congressional bailout bill, the automakers may be required to study building transit buses. At the time the $4-5 billion they got for Allison was gold. In any case - Ghosen or Iaccoca would not have done anything significantly different. RW had to deal with the cards he was delt. Iaccoca even went on the record today that a CEO change is a bad move. For such a failure, GM's directors have also maintained support for him. Given the balance sheet disaster since 2005, he appears to be doing something right.

a) Wagoner when he took over - brought in Lutz who some argue is the best auto guy in the business. b) Don't recall them. Last car ads I remember seeing were Cadillac and Chevy. I still stand by what I said and most mass marketing is ineffective, a waste of money and just horrific. c) Please refer to SEC filings Sept./Oct. 2006 available on GM's site. As for a partner now, the only partner that makes sense in the federal government as they have the power to allow GM to restructure correctly. A parner does not get them what they need in today's climate. Any products shared would still be on the drawing board and potential cost savings still a pipe dream. d) Family jewels? GMAC? GM is better off without GMAC right now. BTW - what they sold they had to. Where else were they going to get the money to pay for all of their unfunded obligations when Wagoner took over? e) Under Wagoner, product volume targets were scaled back to realistic levels such that money would not be wasted in underutilized tooling forcing the company to fleet etc. An no one product would save the company but all the product as a portfolio would have. f) You might be right as far a the ease of sale but again SAAB and HUMMER are not worth very much because of the integration in the greater GM. It is not like you can take a spoon and cut out a self contained entity like Ford did with Jag, LR and AM. That is a fact. In order for HUMMER to be attractive they had to establish a corporate structure where previously it was just a managed brand. You assume they would have received top dollar if they could have been sold. Few if any would want them because all GM can sell is the name and the purchaser would have to go out and spend billions on product to replace the GM product built in many plant one of which GM does not even own (AM General). g) Read the statements as in "Bankruptcy is not a viable option". Bankrupts under Chapter 11 will likely lead to Chapter 7 very quickly. That is not viable. The shareholders will get nothing. h) Who is to say they have not tried. Again, in case you missed it at the time there were not many choices as credit froze. All that TARP money is still sitting in the safes at the banks. There was speculation that GM went to Toyota for help on the financing side. Hell I just looked at sales last month and it looks pretty gruesome for all. Nissan was down 43% slightly more than GM. Hyundai was not far off either and it is not like Toyota and Honda were spectacular either being down over 30%. Seems to me to be an industry problem. Please get your facts straight and or assesment of the situation as it demeans you! If Wagoner goes tomorrow so be it, little will change. In any case, GM under RW has made serious changes at the company given the aweful situation he inherited. If not for truck sales, the company would have died a long time ago. GMNA needs the enema it could not get without the government's help to deal with their debt, UAW and dealers. In any case to the average person looking at GMs results I can see where they are coming from.