saturnd00d

Because if you could just take one car and move it wherever you wanted to, life would be that much easier. They have to use different powerplants than they use in Europe (due to emissions regulations) which require additional fabrication of motor mounts, ECU, compatible tranny, etc....not to mention marketing costs (brochures, print ads, etc.), make sure the car meets North American crash standards, and I bet some more would be involved in the process. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think the Corsa will get here very soon. GM needs a car of that size, worthy of making the public aware that things at GM have changed (or so they want us all to believe). The Aveo, selling solely on risen gas prices, isn't going to cut it. The car needs to be overhauled inside and out. I suspect until that happens, and since they can't afford re-engineering costs these days, it might just be cheaper to import the corsa and sucker up the costs to get it here (like what I've mentioned above) until they can re-d the aveo the way it should be done.

I think GM did the right thing here. What it comes down to, is if you violate the terms of conditions, you pay the price. Same holds true for any other job.

I agree about the comment regarding the 4. I own the 4 in my Vue and it's by no means going to win any drag racing contest. Obviously not what I bought it for anyway. As for the 6, you must have some pretty high standards there. Unless you're talking about getting a 'nox sport model, the 185hp 3.4 is not ballsy to say the least. Quick I guess, but not ballsy. I doubt highly it would overtake the 3.6 in the Vue. Exxagerate much? The new vue took so long to shift, that you almost got rear-ended by a neon? Funny, didn't think they made cars pass QC off the line with those kind of tranny defects, or, more realistically, you're lying. About the 02-07 Vues, while I do like them, I had to pass on owning one since I couldn't get past the squeaky interior on each one I test-drove. The only ones I would have considered to own were the 06-07 model, but since used car financing rates were ridiculous, it actually worked out in my favor to finance a new Vue instead.

I didn't ask you to buy mexican, I said to test-drive one to see the night-and-day difference. If you don't like your vehicles being built in Mexico, you might become and Toyota or Honda fanboy soon enough, seems like GM wants to move alot of it's assembly down there. The Astra is another example. It will soon be built in Mexico as well, to shave importing costs from Europe.

If, by that remark, you're implying the new vue rides the same or worse than the old one, you've just proved that you don't know anything about the two vehicles. Since I've been a saturn enthusiast almost from introduction, I know quite a bit about all of its products, and I frequently go to the dealerships for test-drives just to calm my peaking curiosity. First gen vues 02-07 are nothing like the new ones, they ride harsher, they are prone to alot of road noise, interior squeeks and rattles, frontend noises of all kinds, and had a generally unrefined feel. The Equinox and Torrent didn't improve much on that either. The new vues are above and beyond the old ones in all categories but two...total interior volume, and fuel economy. To be honest, I don't quite believe the total interior volume as I can fit just about anything in my new vue as my uncle fits in his '05. Fuel economy does suffer slightly. By slightly, I am talking 2-3 MPG (comparing the old 2.2L ecotec in the old vs. the 2.4L ecotec in mine, both with 4 speed autos, and excluding the earlier vues with CVTs. The new vue, in my eyes, blows the old one (and 'Nox/Torrent) out of the water. It handles better, it's quieter, it has a more refined feel to it, materials are top notch, fit and finish is excellent... The Theta 1 siblings are great values for those on a budget these days, that need basic compact SUV's, but for those looking for refinement, the new vue is hands down quite the car for the money. I could go on, but why bother?

Oh, you guys are going to hate me for saying this, but take a look at the rear 3/4 view on the Cruze... The rear door's window ends abruptly like my old ION sedan, and even the C-pillar looks like it cuts into the trunk the same way... "The more things change, the more they stay the same"

Go test-drive the new vue - night and day difference. The slight decrease in mileage was more than worth it for me.

The chevy Travisty is a terrible looking Lambda. Sorry guys, it looks dorky no mater which angle you are looking at it from. The Enclave is definitely needed, the Acadia is a sales champ, the outlook (in my opinion) looks way better than this thing, however if chevy needs a Lambda (I don't see why but whatever), then GM should have re-assigned the outlook to be under chevy, and not design some retarded looking thing AKA the travisty that they did. It's awkward, and downright ugly, inside and out. How any of you could think it looks better than the outlook is beyond me. At least the outlook isn't weird looking, and it has some euro flare to it. The Travisty looks like it had 3 different designers, one for each section of it, and then they all merged designs and took it from there. God this thing is ugly. I'd rather buy a 1 year old Outlook or Acadia for the same price as a Travisty with all the bells and whistles.

I see a slight resemblance to the new Vue, however not too much, which I am thankful for. I still think my vue looks better than that thing.

Exterior shots of the Forte...courtesy of Autoblog I think they did a great job with it, but most of the car does scream civic to me as well.

I don't see a point to a mazda 5-sized vehicle, save for the current HHR which inspires heritage and preaches difference from the mainstream. I like the HHR, and surprisingly in my area, they are pretty well received. Minivan-like vehicles are too hard a market to uphold. GM, Ford and Chrysler all have such bad minivans, that any new and improved minivans in their upcoming future wouldn't ever catapult them to the ranks of Honda or Toyota's offerings, not in the consumer's eyes anyway. I say give them that dying breed of crap. There are plenty of alternatives to the minivan that most any family would need anyways.

Looks like a nice departure from the satin nickel scheme everyone's got going on these days.

Not entirely a fan of it, but it looks ok at best.

I love the astra, and to be honest it's too bad that hatchbacks aren't well received here in NA, as they are in Europe. I like hatchbacks as a whole. When it comes time, however, to add another car to the stable to relieve the vue of it's daily driving, I'll be getting my hands on a 4 cylinder aura. They are just too nice to pass up. I prefer them over the malibu any day. I'm in love with the euro look and feel in any car, and the Aura has that over the 'Bu.

I think it's the ugliest Lambda that currently exists, and it's pricetag reflects it pretty well.

Perhaps I was mistaken by speaking of Americans as a whole, because I know that definitely not all Americans want big boat cars with raw V8 power. Obviously that's not true, but I do feel that a larger portion of the country crave more power and size when considering a vehicle, rather than anything else. Obviously there is no statistical data on that, but when you have states like Texas, where people will actually mock you for owning anything but a full size truck or SUV, it adds to the stigma. It's true, however, that Europeans love their small cars, especially hatchbacks, and coupes. They also, in general, appreciate premium quality. I have relatives in Italy who were astounded to find out that I own the North American version of the Opel Antara. They didn't realize I had such a good job. I laughed at that, because I don't have the greatest paying job. Good certainly, but not great. When I told them how much the base Vue starts at, they were pretty shocked. Anyways I'm rambling on here, but just saying that if we had the same mentality as the Europeans do about what's important, we wouldn't, as a continent, be in so much debt to own the things we can't normally afford. Until recently with the sticker shock of gas prices along with the onset of a recession in the U.S., we went for bigger cars and trucks than we needed. Only a small portion of Canada and an even smaller one of the U.S. appreciated compact and sub-compact cars as primary vehicles. In terms of the Saturn brand, I also have to disagree. I am a three-time Saturn owner. The previous two I owned, were the "cheaper look-and-feel" kind that no one on this board ever seemed to have cared for. I appreciated what they were at the time, which was cheap, reliable, good looking econoboxes. They were different from the norm, and they got great gas mileage. With my '98 SC1 (bought in '01), I rivaled by buddy's '02 diesel Jetta in terms of mileage per tank. Obviously he beat me in terms of total mileage, but I was within 110 kms range per tank from him. I got anywhere between 640-670 kms per tank with that car. Anyways, I knew about Saturn going premium since the rumours swirled since I am a self-proclaimed Saturn loyalist. I can tell you that without a doubt, if Saturn's marketing for the Aura (for example) were as good as that of the new Malibu, you'd see a ton more auras on the road. This holds true for all of Saturn's lineup. Having a ton of online-ads on yahoo doesn't make for truly effective marketing, more like pathetic marketing dollars at work. The other problem with Saturn is not the sticker shock at all, it's the dealer network availability. In the U.S., Saturn retailers are spread out across the country, making them more "inconvenient" to get to. In my area in Southern Ontario, Canada, we have 4 retailers within 30 minutes of my area. Saturns are quite popular around here. You can, just as easily go to a Saturn facility as you would a chevy one. This makes a huge difference. So I say that if GM had more Saturn retailers, I would bet dollars to doughnuts, that they would sell alot better than they do right now.

Whistler, I agree with everything you've said. Also, on another note, I don't think people understand, and I mean really understand why GM doesn't bring the Opel brand here. Opel is a premium brand. Europeans are willing to spend more money on premium brands. They don't look so much as to the size of the vehicle for the money, but rather the quality of the vehicle they are buying, and whether it fits their needs or not. For GM to sell the Insignia here (intact and unchanged) either under the Saturn brand or the Opel brand, they would be selling it for way more than what they intend to sell the Aura successor for, in the first place. I urge you all to look at any of Opel's sites and see what the Astra is selling for in Euro currency, along with the Antara and Insignia, then convert to U.S currency (plus or minus a few thou to factor in delivery charges, and various things like that) and see if they would be as low priced as the current Saturn lineup. According to Opel Ireland (I went there because I can read the site), the regular Antara sells for 40,000 Euros. That translates to roughly $59,000 U.S. but for the heck of it, let's say even $50,000 since they assemble it in Mexico. Compare that to how much we pay for the Vue. Likewise, the Opel Astra "sport hatch" (AKA the Saturn Astra 3 door) retails for a starting price of 23,250 Euro, which would convert to 34,305. Compare that to the Astra that we get (even though it's currently imported from Belgium). As for this vehicle, everyone all across the Internet were stating that if GM brought the Astra stateside intact, unchanged, etc., that they would buy it in a heartbeat. Well, the time has come and gone, but not too many put their money where their mouths were. Just blatant talk. On to the Insignia, do you all honestly think that if GM-NA brought over the Insignia the way it is over there, that it would sell like hotcakes? LOL. Good looks aside, I'm sorry but we as North Americans don't realize quality. We worship our pocketbooks way too much. For the roughly 85% of Americans and Canadians living in the mediocre payscale, we wouldn't even consider the Insignia, because we would look for a car with similar features for less money. Look at how everyone bitched about the new Vue because a few thousand more than the original Vues were priced. The brand went upscale and everyone freaked out. The Aura is an upscale product but there were a few drawbacks. Of course there were. We, as North Americans won't pay for a premium product the way Europeans do. So GMNA did what they had to, to offer a car within our reasonable budgets, that offered MOST of what the Vectra did in Europe. Just like what they're going to do with the Aura's replacement. Dumb it down to make it affordable, so that we have a car we are willing to pay for, and they offer us a car they can make a decent buck off of. GM doesn't want to stay in the red forever. You all have to understand that we don't think like Europeans. They like smaller, more premium cars, and if they want it that bad, they have no trouble paying for it. We like big, flashy cars. We want V8's, superchargers, 20" rims, soft-touch interiors, sculpted exteriors, fully-loaded, all the bells-and-whistles, etc. without actually wanting to pay for it. So you can all bitch and complain all you want, we'll never be considered the same type of consumer as the europeans are, and therefore we won't necessarily get what they do, at least not for our pricepoint.

1. 3 of them (98 SC1, 04 ION sedan, 08 Vue XE) 2. No, our Vue will be in the family quite a while. On a side note, my second family vehicle will be an 01-02 SC2 (always loved the s-series coupes the best). Will have the engine and tranny rebuilt, and drive it till the wheels fall off.

Has anyone actually thought that perhaps one family, who wants the Enclave, but can't afford to get the Enclave with certain options might scale down to the Acadia instead, which would allow them to drive the "type" of vehicle they wanted with the options they wanted as well? I am one such person, who was considering a Lambda and was going to seriously look into the Acadia. I liked both the Acadia and Outlook, with the Enclave being way too far out of reach for my pocketbook. The deciding difference between the Acadia and Outlook, for me, was whether or not I could get the Acadia with the options I wanted, for the price point I wanted to spend. I knew that I could have went with the Outlook and get the options I wanted, so regardless, it was the price that decided for me. In truth, I ddn't go with either of them. I decided that I wasn't considering a Lambda out of need, but rather, out of want. I went with an 08 Vue with the 4 cyl instead, which was what fit my "needs" the best. Sure, V6 power would have been great, and so on, but I didn't need all that. Getting back to choice though, pricepoint is huge. More huge, in fact, than I think some people realize. With today's economy, people are looking at price more than anything. The Traverse seems like it's made to appeal to budget-minded consumers, or ones that are crunching the numbers. I hope that GM understands that it might hurt the Chevy brand by giving it a product that is sub-par with fit 'n finish, and interior materials just to introduce a pricepoint for the mainstream budget consumer. At the same time, when you have a product trying to turn Chevy around, like the new malibu, it gives consumers the impression of inconsistency within the brand. I think they would have done better to introduce the Outlook under Chevy and axe it from Saturn instead (as much as I liked it as a Saturn). This way, people still get the great build quality, interior materials, and exterior looks that was from the Outlook, rather than a product that looks budget from the outside-in.

Re: Buying gas in Mexico. To each their own but time is also money, and if your willing to waste 4 hours of your day to cross the border and back just to fill up, you are relatively desperate. And as stated above, the effect it has on your car idling for so long isn't going to be cost-effective. Re: Canadians going to U.S. for healthcare: To an extent, true. I have no problem outside of slightly longer wait times when in the emergency, but I've had a few people close to me willing to retreat into the U.S. for tests and procedures to second-guess results found here, just because results take so long to get to us here. My uncle had an MRI done. It took 4 months to have this MRI, and another month and a half to get the results. Ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I was basing my interior to the current Torrent/Nox interiors, NOT the new concept interior.

I think the equinox/torrent interiors are not too bad in comparison to the former Vue's interior. Being that they are all theta-based, the Nox/torrent got the better deal out of it. They still don't compare to the interior of the new Vues though. I opted for the black/tan combo that has plood accents. It's actually very clean and the fit 'n finish is above almost all in the segment. Here's my 08 Vue interior

RJB, not that I'm biased or anything, but good choice in considering the vue. I took delivery of mine last tuesday, and I love it. You really do feel as though your driving a vehicle costing 20K more. Good luck with your final decision. It's a tough segment to choose from.

Actually I think your right. '94 was the best year for Saturn to date. I think we're forgetting though, Saturn as a whole, is a much better car these days than in the past. It has a stigma associated with it's products that is hard for people to forget. Sure the new offerings are great. They are more stylish than ever before (as stated by several reviewers and publications), and the engines are more refined, and the interiors are up to par with others in their respective classes, however for the public to change its perception of Saturn, they need to be aware that their products do exist. They need to see how far Saturn has come since the cheap, polymer-panelled, noisy cars they used to be known for. Yeah the sales experience was great, etc., etc. but now the product is just as good (if not better) than the sales experience. I'm now on Saturn #3, and for each of those 3 times I bought one, people always questioned what it was, how I liked it, and how it compares to (insert car here). They simply do not know about Saturn as they do about Chevy, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. Truth be told, alot of members on here are pissed off at GM for pouring some serious money into Saturn's revitalization. Sure they did, for the products themselves, but what about for advertising? GM needs to kill off a couple other divisions before they kill off the one major chance they have left. Kill off Hummer, and Saab. Neither of them are needed, and both of them are costing GM through the nose to keep alive. Saturn needs time and brand awareness. Until then, their sales will suffer. They aren't a lost cause though, simply in the background.

I sense alot of hostility in this thread...lol