turbo200

i'm gonna say this first. it's time we all just celebrate the history we have, the history of pontiac, and the other brands, and the history of our support. we should look forward to the things that made us believe in them, allowing us to believe and have faith in something new. we should celebrate the ideas we bring forth, and try to see the reason and rationality in them. the company we're looking at here, has very little time left as what it is now. and we should not speculate or engage in endless debate or what should or should not happen. all we can do is let it unfold and have faith whatever happens will be a good thing. in the end, the continuation of this car company has little to no effect on our personal lives [aside from the very personal effect a potential closure could have on many workers in the company]. that said, accord is a good car man. really good. you should give it a test drive one day. the sedan is practical but sporting. the coupe takes all that sporting nature and injects some really attractive style into it. it's not perfect, but few cars out there are [sure there are some perfect designs out there, but there are other faults with those cars in many cases]. it has a lot of performance, like all hondas, is super pliant, very stable and absorbed with road actions. the engine is great. it has a lot of passion and performance, two attributes i'd say pontiacs used to have a lot of.

classy old school........very good

bmw. class and distinction all the way. the cobalt is one cool little pocket rocket, and the design has some great potential for mods. the interior is hard for me to digest

there's no appeal in this two vehicle segment right now. why didn't they go for a more sedan-like solution with a heavy sloping fastback? like the mazda 6 and opel insignia. this makes no sense to me, and neither does x6.

quality and design of the new 370z interior [and exterior] are on a par with luxury cars, vw/audi included.

i've always been a fan of what pontiac stands for and past pontiac design excellence, but let's be real here, G8 and Solstice aside, pontiac is comprised of entry level transport that sells in large quantities to fleets. yes there are some retail buyers of the lineup, probably around 130k.......but those buyers came to Pontiac largely on the promise of cheap sales. aside from diehard pontiac fans, and those mostly would go more for a G8 kind of car at this point, people don't buy pontiac for perceived performance or perceived rebellious image or perceived good design sense. let's face it, there are companies out there doing the job better......accord v6 coupe comes to mind, mitsu evo/lancer, the whole mistu line, the mazda 3, etc etc........... pontiac has been a work in progress since the aztek, but in the 90's they sold a lot more cars, and were pretty popular still, and cool. gran prix was the lynchpin, and back then grand am was a cool design even if it had cheap elements like all GM cars of the last decade. performance has not been something synonomous with mainstream pontiacs probably since the 80's rwd cars [except for the GTP line, largely out of reach for mainstream pontiac buyers]. pontiac was always about the mainstream, and offering a distinct and awfully mean alternative to chevrolet's casual aproachability. sadly, none of this has been realized in a quality mainstream car that can also be seen as cool in over two decades [g8 is the only one that's mainstream and kind of affordable] so my bottom line point is there are only two pontiacs right now that are aspirational, the rest are just sort of "i settled because my dad wanted me to get it, and he said we got a good deal," and such..... so the answer to the poll.....hyundai, ford, nissan, whatever other heavily discounted car is out there that's a little different, let's say.

the live shots emphasize surface elements more, it looks better here. it's gonna look 40% more sophisticated than Terrain parked next to it, but that doesn't make terrain automatically ugly.....thing is with all the sophistication it's moved so much closer to what everyone else [GM aside] looks like.

if you're really interested in G8, do some homework. call all the pontiac dealers in a 600 mile radius, rent a car, go with the wife, compare quotes. you will find one close if not right at your price range. i know for a fact there was a dealer in michigan offering gt's for 25k. brand new. the g8 is the kind of car you don't pass up when it can be made affordable for you, and the v6 is just as good just not as exhilirating, but v6 is better than what i've got, and many many others too [most of the times I find 'V8 or nothing' fans unreasonable and spoiled] try asking for internet departments, or fleet department, as they will deal in the cheapest numbers. tell them the other low quotes from dealers you've found, and see who will give you the lowest price. the dealer that hasn't moved volume and just needs to clear metal to get rid of the liability will budge.

this is the GC i feel endures most and really represents classic Jeep character. rugged simple clean handsome, up for a ride through the rockies as well as welcome at the country club. unmistakable solidarity this GC generation is my second favorite notice additional refining of previous gen's lines

I guess they figured to go after the high end consumers they had to replicate some of the high end design cues. modeling after lexus with the soft surface elements was a poor choice: the more rounded effect the metal on the doors is making is perhaps more refined looking, but in the end you lost all the trademark Jeepness and rugged character. how does the tahoe still pull off ruggedly handsome and upscale at the same time? through details but keeping butch character throughout the lines. this has lost inherent Jeep character. Jeeps are square and antiquated, that's a good thing. the trailhawk adds aggressiveness to modernize the jeep wagon, and it would have served them better to stand out more. not trying to pick on you, but you're paying too much attention to the headlamps and hood to make a visual connection. look over the form the roofline makes at the rear and you'll notice a very Jeep characteristic trait, the squared off greenhouse, has been lost. the entire jeep rugged look has been lost, and doane is right, there's too much journey, ie generic crossover, to the greenhouse.

it will sell because it looks good, not just different. it's a great thing that it looks different, since GM has literally a sea of SUVs, thanks solid management product planning, and it's nice they have something that is different for them, but also somewhat avant garde.

i find the journey uninspiring, unoriginal, korean/japanese, and generally unappealing. no wonder it's a complete sales failure [or somewhere near a complete failure]. i don't think that's a design to reference as having anything markedly notable.

i like that the G5 GT [good wheels and all] cures some of the ills on the good-formed Cobalt coupe design. i don't like that the interior is rental-basic, however, there are other things about the car that are good. vibe is more car, more practical, more useable....but inherently less attractive in form, to my eyes. astra is a compelling choice, very attractive form and good looks, interior's great, price now good, a 3 door should be something the dealers are eager to push out the door, and the rear on that thing is just pure beauty. check out the camaro too, none of the other cars on the list offer enough appreciable mileage gains to offset camaro's basic goodness/desirability.

I can see this becoming a mainstream trendsetter. the image vehicle for the masses. it's impressive and pushes the GMC image further than anything aside from Denali line. as attractive and enduring as anything GMC has produced. the stance has a good mixture of traditional GM style with some inijected raciness. the flat body paneling and front fenders finally pushes forward GMCs committment to truckitude. it's cute, it's burly, it's aspiraitonal, it's technical at the rear......i would only have hoped for a little better detailing in the taillamps. GM scored and the points above about this being a distinctive excercise versus GM's traditionally safe and little differentiated models is really really well taken. this will attract a different base.......that interior may not be distinct, and GM is counting on ADD consumers [not gonna happen, but maybe gonna happen ], but at least it is very attractive. these are attractive packages overall, mileage included. I just wish they were a little wider.

from the first picture of the thread, glad they finally figured out how to style an enduring and classy wheel, with some flash. i do hope and believe the effort gone into producing thetas will result in success in the marketplace.

i get a sensation from the overall profile and side body creases, along with general greenhouse shape of too many famililial visual ties to equinox and vue. just one of many reasons i like terrain is it completely stands apart and follows a brand specific template. why isn't a cadillac template being set. aside from front and rear to give this more visual uniqueness and substance over eqinox and ilk. why isn't the stance, profile, bodylines more directly connected to a manly muscular future escalade direction [god help us if this srx will relate to future escalade]. that said, it's becoming increasingly evident theta is going to be successful at a lot of things even though there will be quibbles with all of them. for me, i'd rather see srx dynmically compared to performance leaders in the segment...........nonetheless, srx is shaping up to be a fine product, if not the complete glory from Caddy we'd all like to see, but at least some kind of positive buzz generator. heck, the sportwagon is the one I can't wait to see get it's due praise, one of the best looking vehicles overall at the auto show.

you are halfway right. it got excellent reviews--for its chassis and powertrain. but it was never lauded for having the best design, inside or out. quality and tactile feel lagged competitors, quality never lived up to the luxury experience provided by more reputable rivals. additionally, they failed to capture the other segment of buyers, less image conscious and more practical, by not offering any appreciable difference in size over CTS, other than some additional read head and legroom. it needed to be an in between car closer to the size of LS than 5-series, which the CTS was already easily comparing against. so it failed three of the most important concerns of a luxury buyers: flashy design, luxurious experience, accomodating size.

please show me the evidence that backs up your opinion that the Task Force is telling GM to sell less trucks. please tell me where they state GM has to build more green vehicles. please show me where they say the defecit in GM's profit is due to green vehicles, ie hybrid vehicles. the only thing the Task Force does is make predictions about the steadiness of markets and outline in what segments the company has fallen behind and what segments the company has come to depend to heavily upon.

since no one is arguing he didn't do anything good, I think we are going in circles at this point. the core argument is there are plenty of things we armchair critics can point to that look like he didn't do enough. he had plenty of time to change the huge titanic and not enough was changed. of course he made plenty of right decisions, but a normal company would look at the several billions of dollars lost in the fiat deal along with the subsequent mismanagement of the technology agreements resulted from that deal, and heads would roll. not GM. another company would look at the still falling market share and eroding customer base, losing repeat customers, and heads would roll. not GM. the four years of repeat losses. heads would roll. not GM. the gigantic annual and quarterly losses. you get the picture. no, wagoner isn't responsible for the fall of GM; he's responsible for some of the biggest successes, like reworking the production approval system, revitalizing a design department, refocusing development on the creative side, entering new market ambitiously and with a good strategy......but there was too much on his plate and he neglected the results coming in from the home market, as well as the product end. there are plenty of missed opportunities i can point to that would be a product planner's dream in terms of all the potential profit that's out there.

what about the 800k buyers a year for Camry/Accord...or 600k buyers yearly for Civic/Corolla.....people didn't want efficient sophisticated well-designed cars?

starting in '92, wagoner was named CFO, in '94 he became president of NA operations; in 2000 he became CEO. 17 years as an exec compared to ~60 days in office for obama, that comparison makes sense in every world but the real one. though i understand the list of issues at GM is long; number one should have been product development and approval. with the number of platforms and resources available to them, with the distribution channel, with the engineering dept they have; there's no excuse for the number of missed opportunities and neglected brand channels, and repeat offending SUV/pickups. as croc said above, his sense of instinct seems so far off, he needed to go.

thanks for reminding me they're acting our of fear and confusion. i thought i was going crazy for a second.

your commitment to your work will follow you where you go as you begin anew. have fun with those performance machines!

29% was what they were at in 2001, i beleive, and last year they were ~22%.

i think you are looking at this with rather protective eyes, instead of just taking it for what it is--a criticism based on talking to experts within the industry. for example, nowhere in the report does it stipulate the gov't would like the company to sell, or would like more of these kinds of products, or a requirement to sell trucks. it notes all the hurdles in selling trucks in the coming years, fuel economy standards and the public's increasing appetite for smaller cars included, and notes GM will no longer be able to sell as many as before. they don't give a prescription for how to solve the problems because that is not thier job! their job was to accurately asses GM's own solutions to GM's problems....and dealing with whether those solutions were really going to bring profitability. they've determined those solutions will only continue to sink the company. this is consistent with what Obama has been saying all along about how we would treat this situation if you've been following him and not looking at this with eyes closed [not referring to you specifically, but other posters here today especially]