turbo200

indeed strange times. i thought the whole point of my post was that i was showing love for the equinox, in fact i positively gushed over gm's new product. yet i get stoned for showing balance and nuance in my thinking. strange times. strange people.

without a doubt, Mr. Welburn has reason to feel impassioned and displeased with the article. what happens is that GM design is really getting good, but the actual examples are not all that many, or not all that mass market, when it comes to what's in showrooms. in 2010-2011, GM should have few excuses to make. Mr. Sindell's original criticism that GM needs a design reawakening, reemergence is completely true and valid.

oldsboi: i gotta know which one of these it was that made you think it necessary to post that......was it the need to knock me down, or the need to knock toyota? or a combination of both?

actually he's yet another american consumer who doesn't care much about car shows or what is in the future, like us car enthusiasts, he simply cares that his car looks decent or 'nice', have desirable qualities, and is practical when he needs it to be. he is the average buyer and represents the average buyer mindset, the one who is won over by VW because of their smart design and good quality, or honda because of their efficiency and reliability and practical design. there is nothing that can be done except to release good product, with highly attractive qualities. GM is on the way to doing just that, in the meantime they will reap what they sowed.

I don't see any reason for choosing the slightly wider [?] edge, murano over this. the venza is still one great looking wagon, it's stance and elegance win me over this. that said, the equinox is very impressive style wise, the front end is a knockout, and the best interpretation of the chevy language. malibu was never remarkable for materials quality but rather presentation, this takes all the best from malibu and perfects everything else chevy engineered there. equinox, cruze, malibu will serve as highly profitable ventures for the new GM, and will easily best marketshare. i think equinox has potential to grow significantly for years to come and never stagnate or lose prevalence....given its very good and enduring design sense.

I don't spend time reading the huff post, so I can't speak on how extreme their political bent, the only point of reference I have on them and their credibility is that they've been used increasingly in high profile publications as sources. that's not my point though. i read both the original piece and mr. welburn's response. they both have points that are strong and right in thier own way. we still have product like the outgoing lacrosse, current impala and cobalt that display either lack of balance, lack of modern characteristics, or lack of originality, or all of the above. i think the most telling evidence is mr. welburn's defense that the Sindell ought to go and drive the new lacrosse and srx at the dealer. sorry mr. welburn, that just isn't the case yet, those cars aren't in dealers yet. while it may have been a typo or he may have been instructing Sindell to drive those cars in the near future, Welburn's error is the most credible example of how GM has failed in design. their incoming product is stellar. consumers will give GM another chance, and the new GM will arise profitable and very strong, and I believe they will be able to pay off whatever notes are attached to the bailout loans, and we will be able to sell the 60% share in GM for a good amount of money. but that doesn't take away the fact of how poorly timed the product launches of some of the best design GM has put out in over 30 years, it just focuses in on how badly mismanaged the product and brands have been for years. whether that was a result of legacy costs is another issue entirely. the fact is the product was mediocre, and now the product replacing it is light years ahead and very desirable. sindell's break down may seem amateurish, but he makes no assertions that his assumptions are technical or have bearing in fact. merely he's most referencing and focusing on GM's lack of well designed product to make his point. from that he uses the website presentation and the demo makeup of the people who design the cars along with their own enthusiasm for their own appearance to build his argument. it's credible, actually, clothing and appearance should be the cornerstone of any great and interesting designer. i wouldn't point a finger at one that doesn't think that way though. again, both of them make good points, and are coming from different viewpoints. the wash post references the GM of the past that produced glorious design like the last malibu, welburn is referencing GM of the future, when insignia gets here you will see.....and such and such.

maybe their nitpicking is coming from thier experience and preference of understated design.....balance, symmetry, attention to quality

I think that this would not happen as GM Europe owns the intellectual properties behind opel designs and engineering. opel is the brand and sales channel, and they would have to pay licensing fees for using the tech to produce astra and insignia. we will see how this unfolds, but GM's plan to bring insignia and astra here in the future seem to confirm this.

as some reports go, GM will be selling Opel, but not opel designs. insignia, astra, meriva, zafira and co will stay with GM Europe, while Opel could be spun off. this would effectively kill GM's large presence in Europe and much of the rest of the world....but at least the designs and engineering stays, Chevrolet has already made some inroads into the europe, and vauxhall will be around. most importantly, some of the best cars GM produces will remain GM intellectual properties. so say some reports, here's hoping.

also one of the best exterior designs GM currently has. pictures don't do it justice.

from my pov, DF's obsessive love for anything pentastar doesn't get in the way. it just hurts his credibility and is a bit whachadoodle. but that's okay, and doesn't get in the way. it's not like he's out there declaring he stole pontiac's underwear.

one of the best cars GM produces.

if you have half a brain, you can probably tell from the bush terror program tie-in with a chrysler bankruptcy article, the NATIONAL REVIEW is a conservative mouthpiece. was it fair to ask the bondholders to take a huge cut? well bondholders get major returns monthly in exchange for investing in basically junk bonds/companies......and one knows when investing in 'junk' bonds, there is a huge probability you can sacked on your investment, that's why they are rated so poorly by the banks. the president is correct in saying everyone else met sacrifices that were requested of them, but this group did not. in any case, it will be settled in court.

you're being too uncompromising. somewhere you just have to let go.

i'm saying this because first and foremost i beleive the admininstration is interested in these companies really producing designs at the forefront of their industry. i believe they've studied the market, they've studied what the leading auto companies, the ones making real profit, what thier designs are like. you know product like the venza, insight, fiesta, the ones that gain notoriety and sales quickly.....innovative product. so i believe in the end, this is what the administration wants, that the companies continue and increasingly produce designs people want to own. they understand the competition is fierce and excessive, they understand everyone is making good cars now, they understand the way forward is for a focused design adn development team to triumph. i think this means as long as the public continues to buy the kinds of cars you want, cletus wants, camino, et al....then they will continue to be made. secondly, i say what i say because there are really great cars and designs out there. and if we'd all open our minds a little, we'd realize this is not the end of the world, and if we are real enthusiasts we will make it work.

or learn to love european cars. there are some pretty exciting cars out there.

there's no doubt he should and will exert some influence. where the hell is GM's mainstream hybrid competitor? that was his exact question in plain and less colorful language yesterday during his press conference. where are all the mainstream compacts and subcompacts? i know, i know, GM has them coming, just like yesterday, ten years ago, competitive cars are right around the corner. this time thanks to opel and GM engineering we know they're right around the corner. but as an intelligent and curious fellow he has the right to demand GM bring those products to market sooner, after all they are a huge chunk of the new market, and not trucks, which GM is heavily invested in even going forward [crossovers]. it's natural that GM is going to get greener, that was already in the books. they themselves announced a couple years ago they would be seeking fuel efficiency leadership in every segment they compete in. what i know he won't do is jeopardize the company's future. he will enact and ask them to enact a plan that will allow them to make themselves profitable and pay back the taxpayer's money. he has been entirely candid on this point, and like everything he is candid and detailed on, i believe he is invested in seeing that happen. i think the only thing that will kill trucks, muscle cars, and vettes will be lack of sales and GM's own board deciding they are no longer profitable nature, but that will be the only reason going forward, GM is being set up to be a fully viable and profitable company, something that would have never been able to happen if they hadn't been forced into this situation in the first place. GM would have continued to go about it with all thier excess baggage as long as they could have. in the case those cars we love die, if you allow me to philosophize, they hold no pertinence to any one person's condition of life here. we will move on, to other brands, or classics, if necessary, to get our fix of fun to drive cars. that is if life allows us to do so, as well.

the V8 remains the cheapest and most efficient choice when building corvette. my assumption is lack of development funds and less sales could kill vette, but the performance of vette is so eternally competitive that i doubt sales will take such a hit as time goes on. this car can last until 2015 and still see 15k annual sales at least. overreaction and political bias have become a trend here. it degrades those to silly standards, especially those obama attackers who curiously ignore the fact that GM had to come to the gov't for help, and bush left the decisions for obama to deal with. bush left obama the responsibility of how to best utilize the money off mines and your backs. pretty heady responsibility. yet all i hear are whining republicans and conspiracy theorists, instead of those who follow the decisions and the subsequent stabilization. if it were up to GM and chrysler, the excess capacity, excess dealers, excess legacy costs, uncompetitive product lineup [in chrysler's case] would all sort itself out magically from the wand of Harry Potter. people please get a grip and spare us the inconsquential and premeditative talk.

in some ways, pontiac seems like the most relevant brand being produced to be killed by an automaker. it still makes some cars that are relevant, well-liked, and the design has endured well. their volume is relatively good, for a dying brand. well, in my lifetime i've only been around for two of those, plymouth and oldsmobile. this is an entirely different situation, but one in where we begin to see how the sprawling nature of GM's business means some of the worst decisions get made that affect hugely on other divisions without those divisions getting their due dilligence. what if pontiac was really worth saving, what if independent research proved pontiac still had some relevancy or potential for growth? heck, GM killed Pontiac after the G6 went nowhere. the G6 was thier last major investment in pontiac. solsitce was an off the shelf program pushed through by lutz. notice there were no concepts for pontiac after g6. the only major program for pontiac this decade has been g6. gran prix was an update killed after four years of production. g8 adn gto were simple transplants requiring no investment. solstice was not a volume investment, the kind GM spends $2 billion for on an architecture. torrent is a rebadge. vibe is a rebadge. the last major investment was the g6, which in some form or another is also a rebadge, though the coupe and convertible are unique and obviously required some substantial investment. no MCEs for g6, no special engines, no EP II development.......camino and everyone else: this is not a recent development, GM decided on pontiac long ago, the writing was on the wall, we just didn't read between the lines. it should be no secret i favor pontiac. the brute yet clean and simple aesthetic of the great pontiac's was something i admired, and it's there in the g8, not so much the rest of the line. i too wanted to see pontiac evolve, but frankly there was much more to be excited about in actual realized future potential in brands like saab, at least saab was rolling out awesome concepts that were show stealers on a pretty consistent basis. not even pontiac fans were able to realize contemporary visions for something pontiac represented. heck not even the solstice with all its curvaceous splendor and friendly aesthetics represented core Pontiac design characteristics, it was just a damn good and fun car. we are all upset about this. this isn't the time to simply walk away or throw fits. we have to see this to the end, and when the result comes forth, if we're not happy, then we can walk away. GM's stupidity is plenty good reason to have less faith. however, as a whole, this board here represented faith and eternal promise for what's around the corner, yes, we were always hoping for better. let's continue that trademark, let's hope GM gets better through this, things can go back to some semblance of normalcy, even if for most, normalcy went out the door the day GM simply cut and ran, without looking twice at things, seemingly. even though we've been let down, we can continue to beleive in a brighter future, and we don't have to let it all affect us. you can't allow this to dictate your emotions, in the end, what matters is your survival and vibrance, not GM or Pontiac's, which is just a mythical being.

let's see. so far, GM has let go of Saturn, a subbrand marketed as fuel efficient and primarily functioning in the entry level segments of the industry providing mass market fuel efficient cars. saab is also gone, marketing turbo charged engines as an efficient way of producing more power and using less gas. pontiac is gone, marketed primarily in the mainstream midmarket with a fuel efficient midsize sedan, also produced other fuel efficient volume offerings, along with one performance sedan offering the best fuel economy of a V8 sedan. the only gas guzzling brand they've gotten rid of is hummer. What remains? Cadillac? big engines, big luxury mass, big power, not gas efficient. Buick? big cars, relatively large engines, no compact offerings. GMC? i don't think i need to advertise what segments they compete in. so far, GM's decisions seem swayed in favor of profitability, relevancy, and getting rid of excess [dealers especially]. corvette is profitable, so it'll likely stay. the administration has stated multiple times they have no desire to own a car company. they will use means, such as tax breaks, to encourage, and eventually influence, the proliferation of more fuel efficient and 'green' electric cars....but what the public wants the public is still gonna get. gm needs to make a profit in order to pay back the money they've borrowed. there are other issues that will determine the viability of the current configuration of the corvette. wealth and oil prices are two of those.

with 22% market share, does spending the resources to maintain 8 brands make sense? with volume of 260k units overall, and less than half that on retail, a brand outlined as being unprofitable by the new CEO, does keeping Pontiac alive make sense? i know there are other brands in america with as little volume......do those brand have the gargantuan amount of dealers pontiac posseses, or the plants GM has with the excess pay/bonuses GM has to give. along with Buick/GMC, the combined volume yearly reaches 850k units.....combining fleet sales [i don't know if all fleets are done at the dealer]. i think this is a way for gm to get rid of factories, dealers, etc to get down to the necessities, profit and volume. what's left that has equity. though we passionate few believe in pontiac's equity, looking at it from the numbers, pontiac's equity may have been gone long before the year 2000 [01 began massive discounts, 2000 saw heavy fleets for gran prix and grand am, that has pretty much never let up]

we have to get used to the idea that gm will come out of this situation alive and with buick, gmc, chevy and cadillac likely only. if we're a fan of the engineering, design, and powertrains, we will come out on the better end as GM will be stronger. you're one of the most vocal sect here.......yet the last time you bought a brand new car was back in '02. if you can't grow up about this situation and accept gm will be around, and you will have your choosing from a reduced number of brands, and hopefully they can make a car that represents who you are and your situation. the only difference is it will be under a different name, but at least the idea of engineering, designwork, and design we all subscribed could happen years ago, and is now actually happening, will live on. GM finally makes good cars. if you turn into a real consumer anytime soon, you can have a choice from there. don't be sour anymore.

****boing****[walks into wall] What? i'm sure you didn't mean this. of course they compete against one another. there's only so many people who will consider a certain kind of bodystyle of car. they draw different consumers in from other markets, but in the end a person looking at a roadster will inevitably look at both. it's just good they have two different looks so as to draw as many buyers as possible.

it'll be an easy conversion. myself, i find the sky to have more attractive features/character, but the solstice is the outright more balanced design [and because of that more enduring, less prone to wear]. less nuances less fuss, pure shape, perfect proportions....

you're being hard on yourself. i've seen and heard much gayer. your manner of speaking is fine, your intonnation is mostly flat, your tone is on the deeper and more controlled end of things, and delivery/mannerisms is far from homosexual, at least from what i can tell of your personal vid. sorry for going so deep in analysis, just my way. at myself anywho, good for you on the cobalt getting something practical and hopefully [probably] reliable