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smk4565

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Everything posted by smk4565

  1. smk4565
    I know most new car buyers are older, and most 20-somethings or the average 20-something isn't buying a $30k new car. I said the 20-somethings there are buying cars, there are some out there, or maybe even in the 25-34 demographic that are going to buy a new car for $25-29k, there isn't much choice, except a rental spec Camaro or Mustang. In 2002 a V8 Camaro was $22,300, the same as a Camary XLE. Todays Camry XLE is like $26,000. Now todays V6 is also 2002's V8. In 2014 $24,700 was the price of a Camaro V6, now it is $29k for a base V6. Nearly $5,000 increase in 2 years. Put any options on that car (like $1,500 for an automatic transmission) and you get to $35k really quick, even for the 4-cylinder car. The Scion tC is $19,300 right now, and has 180 hp, Toyota could easily make a Celica for $20k base. It is a Corolla chassis with a coupe body and pick a corporate 4-banger to put in there, even the Camry's 4-cylinder/6AT in a 2,900 lb car or whatever a tC weights can feel peppy to drive. We aren't talking sub 6 second 0-60 time, but it could be a sporty looking car with some fun factor for younger buyers. And do you think 20 something year olds could have afford Camry XLE price tags? Like I said... Civic Si and Golf GTIs were the cars that mommy and daddy bought for them. How much did those go for? 15 000? Pontiac Firefly turbos and Cavalier Z24s... Asuna Sunfires... Ford Probes too. Those being the most expensive that the average joe 20 year old bought with mommy money! Camaro LT1 V8s were out of their reach... A 2002 GTI bas was $19,460, VR6 had an MSRP of $20,845. The GTI 337 (limited edition) was $22,775. Base 2002 Camaro $19,015 and the Z28 (LS1 V8) was $23,430. They were pretty much the same price.
  2. smk4565
    Every mid-engine car in today's world is expensive. The Corvette has been front engine, rear drive for 60 years, why mess with what works. The Mercedes SL has sort of been the German equivalent to the Corvette Convertible, both came out in the 50s and have been going ever since. The SL was mostly V8 or V12 since the early 70s (brief run of straight six in the early 90s) and they offer a V6 now since today's V6 makes the power of an early 2000s V8. Bu they kept the car in the same segment with the same mission. When time came for a hardcore sports car, they did the SLR, the SLS Gullwing, the AMG GT, they had a different car fulfill that mission. They didn't throw away the SL's heritage or mission because they wanted to chase Ferrari all of a sudden. I would like to see a Corvette with a base V6 (maybe turbo) the V8 would be Stingray, and a 600 hp V8 could be Z06, $48-80k price range. This would fulfill the purpose of the Corvette being the every man's performance car, being what it was in the 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s. Make something else above Corvette if they want more. Just like I think Cadillac should have an Omega SUV above Escalade that is high performance. But they have drawn some line in the sand that Escalade is the top Cadillac, nothing can ever surpass it, even though it is built on a Chevy pick up truck chassis.
  3. smk4565
    So much so that the ZR-1 ended production in 1995, took until 2009 to come back, the NSX limped on with no sales until 2002, died, came back in 2016, and the Viper has never sold well, and is now being put out of production. Meanwhile in the 90s, Porsche was the only German company really building super cars, now they all do. BMW and Mercedes back then and 850i and SL600 type cars, but they were tanks with V12s, meant for luxury not track performance.
  4. smk4565
    I know most new car buyers are older, and most 20-somethings or the average 20-something isn't buying a $30k new car. I said the 20-somethings there are buying cars, there are some out there, or maybe even in the 25-34 demographic that are going to buy a new car for $25-29k, there isn't much choice, except a rental spec Camaro or Mustang. In 2002 a V8 Camaro was $22,300, the same as a Camary XLE. Todays Camry XLE is like $26,000. Now todays V6 is also 2002's V8. In 2014 $24,700 was the price of a Camaro V6, now it is $29k for a base V6. Nearly $5,000 increase in 2 years. Put any options on that car (like $1,500 for an automatic transmission) and you get to $35k really quick, even for the 4-cylinder car. The Scion tC is $19,300 right now, and has 180 hp, Toyota could easily make a Celica for $20k base. It is a Corolla chassis with a coupe body and pick a corporate 4-banger to put in there, even the Camry's 4-cylinder/6AT in a 2,900 lb car or whatever a tC weights can feel peppy to drive. We aren't talking sub 6 second 0-60 time, but it could be a sporty looking car with some fun factor for younger buyers.
  5. smk4565
    Now to jump in the Deloran and go back to 1991, when Dodge, Chevy and Acrua supposedly put Ferrari and Lamborghini on notice. The Ferrari 308 and Mondail were crap, but everything in the early-mid 80s was crap. The Contach came out in 1974 and 1990 was the last year. If you look at the 1985-1990 era they had a 455 hp V12. Those ran 0-60 in 4.7 seconds with a top speed of 183 mph. In 1990 the Diablo came out, 0-60 in 4.5 seconds top speed of 202 mph. The Ferrari Testarossa came out in 1984, 0-60 was 5.2 seconds, top speed 180 mph. the 512TR came out in 1991 and did 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, and did 195 mph. The Ferrari 348 was good for 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, top speed of 170 mph in the early 90s. 1991 Porsche 911 Turbo did 0-60 in 4.4 seconds 12.9 seconds 1/4 mile, top speed of 166 mph. Here are the numbers for the NSX, Corvette, Viper. The ZR-1 did 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, a 13.2 second 1/4 mile and top speed of 171 mph. The 1991 Acura NSX did 0-60 as fast as 5.7 seconds, but 6.3 seconds with the automatic, top speed was 168 mph. The 192 Dodge Viper did 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, top speed was 165 mph. All 3 of those cars were slower than a discontinued Contach. The Porsche 911 was more in line with Viper/Vette/NSX pricing and it could out accelerate them all. The ZR-1 and Viper were fast for their time and much cheaper than a Ferrari or Lambo, but others had already hit that level of performance.
  6. smk4565
    1969 is a long time ago, doesn't matter today. To me the Camaro should be a car that a 20-something can afford. Stagnant wages in the US and student loan debt is a whole other topic/debate, but there are people in their 20s buying new cars. Most of these people are probably in the Focus/Civic price point, but I there are younger buyers with no kids looking to spend $25k on a car and want something sporty, they don't want a Camry because their parents have one. They have limited options. And I'll say that I think it was a mistake for Toyota to kill the Celica, they are killing Scion, hopefully they bring the Celica back as a $20-25k sporty coupe, even if it is front drive with 200 hp. Young people would like it. Young people don't want a Corolla that is boring as wallpaper paste. Then you have Camaro/Corvette buyers who's kids are grown and gone, maybe they want a 2nd car, at these prices they might think it isn't worth it to drop $40k on a V6 Camaro, their daily driver Avalon or Impala already has that and is easier to get in and out of. The Supra is coming back, but I know it won't be cheap, Toyota is going to be going after Infiniti or maybe higher trim Camaro buyers. But again nothing for the average income folks. And maybe people wanting crossovers is also killing the sports car.
  7. smk4565
    As far as Cadillac goes they have been trying to build their image since 1982, after the V8-6-4 fiasco. And new competitive product has been "a couple years away" since the Allante was in development. 30 years later, still waiting for the product and image. Based on Hyper's reasoning, we are led to believe that people would not spend $200,000, or even perhaps $125,000, on a Cadillac sports car, that is bought and serviced at a Cadillac dealership, with Cadillac dealership amenities. Yet that same buying public will spend $125,000 on a sports car at a Chevy dealership, and take it to the Chevy dealership to have it serviced by the same guy that works on Sonics and Cruzes. Whether the mid-engine Corvette is $70,000, $100,000 or $200,000, the sales price of the car is pretty much set by how much it costs to develop and build it. So if we just say, GM has made a $100k car called Zora and it has no logos or badges on it, which dealership should it be sold at? The clear choice is Cadillac. This idea of the Corvette will compete with the World's best is ridiculous. I just read the 2018 Aston Martin Vanquish will have a V12 with as much as 800 hp. So does the Corvette need an 800 hp V12 now? It isn't a Corvette if it costs $300,000, then it is just another crazy priced exotic that they make 500 a year of.
  8. smk4565
    First off the ZR-1 or NSX didn't wake up Ferrari. Ferrari F40 came out in 1987 and could do 201 mph. It can hang with a lot of modern day super cars and it is nearly 30 years old. In fact, the 2017 Acura NSX or Corvette Z06 can't hit 200 mph. And my complaint about Camaro and Corvette together is they are pricing them way above Chevy prices. Chevy won't have a sports car people can afford, Ford can cash in with the Mustang (as they already are beating Camaro in sales) and even the Challenger outsold the Camaro last month and the Challenger sucks. I think we are only a a few years away from the Camaro costing more on average than a Cadillac ATS, and when that happens it will sell like a Cadillac ATS. And Ford will laugh and laugh all the way to the bank. I have said in the past I don't think any Camaro should have over 500 hp, once you get above 450-500 hp that is Corvette territory. Corvette I'd like to see start at $48k with a V6 and top out around $90,000. I would keep it similar to Porsche Boxster pricing. I am also 100% in support to GM building sports cars and super cars above $100,000, and I am all for them building 600 hp cars. Those should be Cadillac's though. the high price and high power should be at the high end brand. Chevy should build a sports car the average income can afford. That being said, if Chevy were to push Camaro to the $47-90,000 price point, and Corvette to the $100,000+ price point and introduce a new sports car in the $25-35,000 range, I could see the logic to what they are doing. But I feel like Chevy is leaving their customer behind as they chase these high prices.
  9. smk4565
    GM is already developing a mid-engine sports car, the money is already being spent. Without question that should be a Cadillac. The best engineering, the best styling, the best performing cars GM makes should be Cadillacs. It isn't like I am saying stop development work on the next Equinox, Cruze or Malibu which are volume products that GM has to have, and divert resources to a Cadillac vanity project. In this case GM is already spending the time and money on a mid-engine car, giving it to Cadillac doesn't mean Chevy can't get a new crossover or sedan to market. The price escalation of the Camaro and Corvette is sort of like the size creep that occurs with Focus, Fusion, Cruze, Malibu. As those cars get bigger and more and more equipment, it pushes them against the Taurus and Impala, and basically the Taurus and Impala will be gone around 2020 so we can have $30,000 Malibus and Fusions. There is proof in the pudding too, the CTS used to sell 50-60,000 units a year, then they desired to make it bigger and more expensive in gen 2, and bigger and more expensive in gen 3, in the meantime killing the STS (their range topper at the time). So now you have what was the entry level CTS as the mid-level Cadillac and sales are about 15,000 a year. 60,000 down to 15,000. By 2020, I would not be surprised if the cheapest V8 Camaro is $48,000 and the cheapest V6 is $38,000 with the base car being $31k. I am not buying a Camaro so I don't care, but by 2020 they'll be selling 3,000 Camaros a month.
  10. smk4565
    One big problem with the XLR is it was less powerful and slower than the Corvette, yet $25,000 more. The other issue is they wanted to go directly against the Mercedes SL, and the Allante failed at that, Jaguar XK failed, Lexus SC failed, etc. No car survived, the SL is the last luxury roadster left. Audi never made a proper sports car before they made the R8, Acura was a car company for about 4 years when they launched the NSX. Cadillac just has to dive in and stay the course. Instead of GM pumping more and more money into making expensive Chevys, they should put those resources toward Cadillac.
  11. smk4565
    And that 638 HP Corvette had a Cadillac price tag. Maybe same price tag with that 469 HP Cadillac.Quite possibly a HIGHER price tag than it even.. And just to add to my post above... SMK... Find me the price tag of that 2002 Camaro SS anniversary edition and while you are at it, find me the price tag of the 2002 Pontiac Trans A WS6 collector edition (convertibles too) just to see how much those cost back in the day versus Toyota... But also do an equipment list comparison including the quality of the interior materials with the last special editions F-Bodies with a normal 2016 Camaro SS and see where the money went in the price tag. When you do that, I promise you, you will think the Alpha Camaro is a steal! Guys...the Alpha Camaro is much, much more than just a pony car... Once you folk realize what that means, then you wont be bitchin' about the price tag. Especially you SMK... You dont like BMW, but Mercedes Benz has NOTHING in THEIR stable either at ANY price point that beats the Alpha Camaro in performance... The upcoming ZL1 will EMBARRASS German cars twice and three times the ZL1's price tag in ANY performance metric you wanna throw at it! The ecotec turbo 4 also is quite the performer out gunning ANY German car at that price point... THAT is why the Alpha Camaro costs as much as it does..and its a STEAL! I am not saying the Alpha Camaro doesn't have far better performance and interior than the F-body, obviously it does. I think a 2016 Camry interior is nicer than the Camaro still, but that is sort of besides the point. The alpha Camaro has a high level of performance, the SS doing 0-60 in around 4 seconds is really fast, it is C6 Corvette level performance. In that regard it is good value, but the price point has moved higher and higher too. My complaint of Camaro and Corvette is they are both getting more and more expensive. Probably by 2020 you won't even be able to get a Camaro for under $30,000, the 2017 model is near $28k base. I've always thought the Camaro should be an inexpensive sports car, because Chevy has the Corvette above it. And if GM wants to challenge the Euro super cars, that is what Cadillac is for. Chevy shouldn't be going after the Audi R8 or Porsche 911, or Ferrari California, etc. Chevy should be worried about Ford and Toyota and Hyundai. Let Cadillac worry about the Euro exotics or the Acura NSX. And look at the NSX pricing, $150-200k, that is where the mid-engine Corvette is headed. And as far as the Alpha Camaro beating anything Benz makes, please. Mercedes had a car with a 209 mph top speed 10 years ago. GM never made a car that fast. The AMG GT will stomp any Camaro with ease. If Chevy wants to take on Mercedes so badly, maybe they should make an Impala with a hand made luxury interior to take on Maybach. I think people would pay $125,000 for a super luxury Impala, that makes as much sense as a $125,000 Chevy sports car.
  12. smk4565
    Again: erroneous. You are saying all Chevy models should be in a tight price range, why??? Because; Buick? Irrelevant. Not all Chevy's need to be in a tight range, but Chevy should be focused on value and building a fun sports car that regular people can afford. In year 2000, a Corvette had a price of $39,280 and not a huge options list to drive it into the stratosphere. The Cadillac Deville had a price of $39,895. Inflation at 2.15% since 2000 would mean $39k then is $55k now. So the Corvette base model has gone with inflation, but the higher trims push it way above where it was. A 2000 Cadillac SLS was $44,000, $5k more than a Corvette. Now a base Corvette is more than a Cadillac CT6. Cadillacs used to cost more than Corvettes.
  13. smk4565
    When in the last 50 years has Cadillac had more HP than Chevrolet, never mind higher performance? 1965 : Cadillac ~ 340, Chevy ~ 375 1975 : Cadillac ~ 190, Chevy ~ 235 Gotta love these arbitrary mandates from out of nowhere... 1996 Corvette 300 hp 1996 Seville STS 300 hp
  14. smk4565
    Because unlike Benz.. or BMW.. Cadillac is a part of a whole. It has sister brands that allow for its existence in teh same way that Audi exists within VW. If U don't think Cadillac brings massive profit to GM then U are a fool. They and U can paint the pic the way U want.. but in truth Cadillac has models that are platform sharing themselves into even more profits. The most blatant being the Escalade.. which I still have to convince some dullards is the same as the Tahoe/Subur/Yukon/YukonXL. The XTS and XT5/SRX are the others, and all are nice sellers. There is zero reason why their type of contribution should be cut loose as long as the core is RWD based models For sure Cadillac is making profit, but if the profits were so huge at Cadillac why aren't they making more Cadillac models? If the Cadillac division was making more profit than the Chevrolet division, wouldn't we be seeing like 2-3 new Cadillacs every year? Wouldn't there be 5 Cadillac crossovers, sports cars, hyper cars, the whole 9 yards. To use the Audi example, they are selling around 1.8 million cars a year, they easily make more dollars in profit than VW does selling 6 million cars.
  15. smk4565
    If we jump back in time to 2002, the Camaro had a base price of $18,415 and the Z28 was $22,830 which got you the V8. Compare that to the 2002 Toyota Camry (the #1 selling family sedan then and now) a base Camry LE was $18,970 Camry XLE was $22,295, SE V6 23,700. So very similar prices of the Camaro and Camry which put the Camaro priced right against the family sedan segment. Thus it was very affordable. Jump ahead to 2016. Camaro 2.0T $25,700, SS $36,300 Camry LE $23,070, XLE $26,310 You used to be able to get a V8 Camaro for the price of a 4-cylinder Camry. Prices of V8s have gone up, but you can't even get a 4-cylinder Camaro for the price of a 4-cylinder Camry now. Camaro is now like a $30-50k car, while the Camry/Malibu/Fusion type cars are still $23-33k.
  16. smk4565
    No need for a Corvette CUV, that would be a bad idea. Cadillac should be fighting the Porsche Macan and Cayenne, and BMW X5 M, and AMG crossovers. If you want to throw Tesla in the mix, Cadillac should be going after them too.
  17. smk4565
    I don't think "Corvette" could be a brand, however I could get behind the idea of the Corvette moving to Cadillac. The interior would have to get better and some styling tweaks, but a V6 could be the base car with the better interior to keep price where it is, and add V8s and still have $60-100k price point, which makes sense for a Cadillac. I doubt they will do that, but the Corvette is becoming like the Nissan GT-R, who wants to pay $100k for a Nissan, wouldn't it be better as an Infiniti? Chevy should have affordable sports cars. The Malibu isn't $55k so why is a Camaro? This is why GM has brands, for value, middle and high end.
  18. smk4565
    What is funny is the new Corvette is supposed to be a high revving DOHC V8 too. For years Corvette owners said the pushrod was better, the Ferrari style high revving V8 mid-engine cars were over priced or not as good. Now Corvette fans are getting their version of an Auri R8 or Ferrari 488 or McLaren 570.
  19. smk4565
    VW lost like $2 million per car on every Veyron sold. The Chiron will lose money also, but they don't care it is basically a marketing piece for them. I am not opposed to GM making a money losing hyper car, but it shouldn't be a Corvette. I also don't think the Corvette needs more capabilty or speed. I go back to my Miata example, they hold the price at an affordable level. Back in the late 90s or 2000 a Corvette was about $40,000, and a Cadillac Seville or Deville was about that. Now the Cadillacs are like $46k, but the Corvette is $60k. They are losing the bang for the buck argument when they want to charge $70k for a Stingray or $100k for a Z06. I still think Corvette should be a $50-80k car, sort of in Porsche Boxster price range. I'd like to see a V6 Corvette to hold the price point to mid 2000s level. I also think there is room for a sports car above Corvette at GM, just at Cadilac.
  20. smk4565
    The current Z06 gets ripped sometimes because it has too much power and can't get the power down or use it. Personally I don't think any Chevy needs more than 500 HP, maybe 550 for the range topping Camaro and Corvette. For performance above that there is Cadillac. Cadillac V-series should be the pinnacle of GM performance. I would go the other way with the Corvette and release a V6 model at $49,995. Even with the 335 HP V6 and 8-speed it would still be 0-60 in 5 seconds, the Corvette doesn't weigh that much, and it would probably be lighter and better handling than the V8 model. This makes the Corvette more attainable, which is what it is supposed to be. Really no Chevy should cost over $75,000 either, again Cadillac should have the $75,000 plus cars.
  21. smk4565
    Fallacy argument as the Z06 (as well the last gen. ZR1) are $100K and GM had no problem selling them. A mid engine will not change that. What percentage of Corvette sales were ZR1? A mid-engine Corvette base model could be priced where the ZR1 was. A mid-engine ZR1 could be $200,000. Way too high for what is supposed to be the "affordable" sports car.
  22. smk4565
    If Cadillac doesn't have sales volume, how do they justify making things like the Omega platform or Alfa platform or new engines, etc. It costs money to do all that, that is why Lincoln is a Ford badge job, because Lincoln doesn't have the volume to generate enough profit for Ford to give them their own platforms or engines. Cadillac's global sales are small, they rely on the USA, so if they can't grow here, they better find sales outside the USA.
  23. smk4565
    A mid-engine supercar should be a Cadillac. Why mess with the Corvette formula that has worked for 60 years. They also aren't going to draw in younger buyers with the price point of a mid-engine car. Look at the Alfa 4C, that is the cheapest mid-engine car on sale and it is about $65k with a 230 hp 4 cylinder. A mid-engine Corvette will be over $100,000 easy. Which is why it should be a Cadillac, Cadillac can support $100k pricing (or at least should be able to)
  24. smk4565
    As I said originally, a 650 HP Camaro is awesome for Camaro and muscle car fans, just like Mopar fans love the Hellcat Charger. But when you push further and further up in performance you lose the mission of the original car. This is why the Miata doesn't have a V8 and cost $50,000. At that point it wouldn't be a Miata anymore. I actually think the ZL1 is a good thing for the Camaro brand image as long as they still have the $25-30,000 model that regular people can buy. But every month in the sales thread people question why Camaro sales are down and it is because they are pricing people out of it.
  25. smk4565
    No. Because the Cadillac fans have a LT4 in the CTSV. Not only that.. The ATS-V is a car in and of itself. For your constant instigating questions I pose this.. f@#kin C63AMG or M3 fans have an issue that the ZL1 will have 200 more Hp than they? ATS and Camaro are closely related though, and while most ATS-v buyers probably don't care if it had 450 or 650 HP, there is the question of why any Camaro is more expensive than a V-series Cadillac, when Cadillac is GM's fop dog. They could put 1,000 hp in a Camaro and a BMW driver won't buy it because it says Chevy on it. But that goes back to my original point of Chevy being the value brand, having a value sports car, but they are moving away from that. The mid-engine Corvette I bet will cost over $125,000. How is that the every man's sports car, it will just turn into an Audi R8 which most Corvette fans think is a ripoff. I am all for a mid engine supercar at GM but it should wear a wreath and crest (yes bring the wreath back) and not a Chevy badge.
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