smk4565

My guess is people buying a Hornet will want a usable back seat.

The Compass is 173 inches long, the Tonale is 178, so I assume the Hornet is also. Escape and RAV4 are about 180 and Equinox is 183. An Encore GX is 171 inches long. The Hornet is probably sized how it is because the Alfa was sized against GLA/Q3/X1/X2 type cars. Since Alfa has the Stelvio as their X3/GLC rival, which would be Equinox size. Ok, I thought they maybe still had some. This list of eligible cars is going to change again in January, so I’m curious to see what drops off and what comes back. If a $7500 credit comes back for the Bolt then that’s the deal of the decade there.

I am sure it doesn’t go to zero but the Fusion Energi when off EV only mode got less mpg than a Fusion hybrid. The Volt was 42 mpg after you use up the electric range, a Camry hybrid is 50 mpg. It is also possible they went the PHEV route to get tax credits because under the old law the would have but now the Hornet won’t qualify. And 3 years ago when development started they would have had no idea the law would change on them.

I think it was eligible before, but Ford was about to run out of credits so tho are good to go now. Assuming their batteries have enough North American content to qualify.

Fuel economy might not be, but I'd question reliability and build quality. And a Rav4 hybrid or Prime could top this in fuel economy I'd guess, likewise with the Escape hybrid and PHEV. I get the use case for the PHEV, but most of those once the battery is depleted is less efficient than a regular hybrid because you are just carrying extra battery weight, plus you have the maintenance costs of 2 powertrains. I think just going all EV makes more sense. And I'd guess the price is $29,900 and Destination is like $1500. Dodge and Jeep like to do crap like that for advertising purposes. And you can raise it a year later, that "under $40k" F150 Lightning lasted like 3 months, now it is like $49k for the base model with destination. Dodge has always had to rely on rock bottom price to sell, as you pointed out with the Journey, this thing will be Cadillac XT4 pricing with 1 option package. Risky strategy by them to go up market, especially given how Alfa Romeo is bombing.

They need a small crossover since that is the #1 segment, but there are also like 20 vehicles in this segment. You have to be there but it is crowded space, going with a performance angle at least lets them stand out. I feel like Alfa Romeo and Dodge SUVs aren't really what a lot of people are looking for though and I wouldn't trust reliability of this compared to a Rav4 or CR-V. In the launch presentation the head of Dodge mentions people in this segment shop fuel economy, value, practicality, etc and how that's boring and Dodge will sell performance and attitude, etc. But people paying $30k for a car are usually more on a budget and won't buy a car that sucks gas or has costly maintenance repairs.

I don’t count plug in hybrid as EV and that’s what Stellantis has.

They have the same lithium ion batteries and radial flux motors that Tesla and everyone uses. When they get the silicon anode batteries and axial flux motors it is said they will get 20-40% more energy density and power over the current offerings.

Looks kind of like a Kia EV6 with a Chevy front end. Still 3 years away and who knows what their production volume will be. Nothing really new here, what would be ground breaking in the EV segment is to have vehicles in dealer lots rather than this order now and get it in 6-8 months model that exists now. Also not sure Stellantis even has a level 2 system so promising level 3 is big step.

They already build the best luxury EV. The AMG ICE cars (and the plug in hybrids) are better performing around a track than EV's, so maybe they want to hold off on the AMG only EV's until they can get where the gas ones are. They need a more advanced battery and motor than what's available now, the axial flux motor won't be ready until 2025, likewise with the next-gen battery.

I saw the Taycan is back on top, still slower than their own Panamera Turbo S though. Mercedes is coming, I think it is interesting that the AMG EQE here is called an AMG 53 in Europe and that's the 670 hp version. So I wonder if there is a "63" coming or if they are just waiting til their 2nd gen battery comes in 2025ish because they have a performance EV architecture in the works and their F1 team has been doing work on the battery and motors. And maybe the the EQE and EQS AMG's are just what they are now, and they'll add a coupe and sedan on the performance car architecture that will basically be the AMG GT 4-door replacement and it would make more sense to make a new sports car rather than try to turn a luxury barge like the EQS into one, even the EQE is as big as a Lucid Air or Taycan. Hopefully Cadillac makes an EV that isn't an SUV, outside of the Celestiq. American car companies outside of Tesla hate sedans.

I guess my point is the cheap sports car segment will die with the EV switch. I suppose if you shrunk the Model 3 ( which is already smaller than a Mustang) down to Supra size and removed the rear seat then you could shed some weight and get under 3500 lbs. I don’t really care if the affordable sports car segment dies, I’d prefer a sensory deprivation air matic Mercedes over a Mustang or Supra that’s more raw and connected to the road.

The weight matters, the Model S Plaid has over double the horsepower of a Corvette, does a 9.2 second quarter mile compared to the Corvette's 11.2 and the Corvette would beat it on any track in the world that has more than 1 corner and 1 braking zone. So if you make horsepower equal, say a Model 3 Performance vs a Corvette, I don't care what suspension parts they put on a Model 3, it isn't beating a Corvette on a track. And if Hyundai is going to make the N 74 or Ioniq 6 N handle like a sports car, how expensive is the suspension and brakes going to be to make that happen? And how many buyers are out there for a $75,000 Hyundai performance sedan? I don't see many Sonata N's out there and those are like $34,000 and they are killing the Sonata after this generation is word on the street. And thank you all for the birthday wishes.

So you are saying a Kia EV6 GT is a better handling car than a Cadillac CT4 Blackwing? Model S Tesla handles better than an CT5 Blackwing?

Which proves my point that these "performance" EV's have trash handling, the M5 is the only one that looks like it belongs out there, the rest are mess in the handling department. I want to see someone do a performance EV that isn't just rip your face off acceleration, and is actually a good handling car. On an ICE car, like a Camaro, you can keep the same engine, and upgrade to the 1LE suspension, get the better brakes, etc. On EV's the performance upgrade is bigger battery, bigger motor, penalize handling more for straight line speed.

Correct that Tesla chose not to make the Plaid have the upgraded brakes, suspension, tires, weight reduction etc. And that's their choice, but I wouldn't claim the Plaid as peak engineering since they just basically just added 1 motor and cranked up the voltage compared to the standard model. Tesla could offer a performance or track package and I'm sure people would buy it. But to Tesla (and other EV's) performance is 0-60 and 1/4 mile time and it isn't all straight line. And the Plaid is faster than the Taycan and e-Tron GT around the track, but the Panamera is faster than the Taycan, the Audi RS3 is faster than the e-Tron GT, within the same brand the ICE cars are still faster because of EV weight. Which I get eventually the batteries will get lighter and resolve a lot of that problem. But we are talking high end cars with the Plaid and M5 CS. What about a $40,000 sports car? Or $50,000? You won't get a fun to drive sports car, just a heavy EV that goes in a straight line, because they don't care about brakes, handling, suspension, etc, at least Tesla doesn't. And the rest of these guys like to copy Tesla. Final example, 184" L x 74" W x 60" H at 4800 lbs 187" L x 71" W x 56" H at 3860 lbs Both close in size, both cost in the high $60s, the Kia will easily beat the Cadillac 0-60 and 1/4 mile. But I am guessing the Cadillac with 1,000 less pounds of weight is a much better to drive car. And this is the EV problem, if Cadillac makes and Electric CT4, then it's a 4800 lb car that will handle like a 7-series or S-class, and the only thing the CT4 is good at is gone.

The Plaid has 1,000 hp. If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing. Which is my point with EV performance. And why I don't see an affordable EV sports car showing up any time soon, definitely not in the sub $45k like Camaro, Mustang, BRZ, Miata Civic Type R, Golf R, Nissan Z, etc whether you want muscle car, hot hatch or sports car. I don't see an EV coming to take the place, This N74/Ionic 6 N are more powerful than the Corvette (6.2 V8) and would likely cost the same as a Corvette and it would have no where near the performance of a Corvette. Now one is mid-size sedan, not a lot of comps for non-luxury performance sedans except a Charger Hellcat.

7:29 is faster than 7:35.5 of the Plaid.

According to the wikipedia list of Nurburgring times there are 89 cars faster than the Tesla Model S Plaid. Including this $59,000 (base MSRP) Audi which beat it by .05 seconds And to update my earlier post, the E63 is not longer the fastest wagon, in May 2022 the BMW M3 Touring beat it and is now the wagon record holder, and is also faster than the Plaid. So Tesla and the other EV's have work to do. And I like the idea of EV's, so I hope they can get the weight out and get the cost out and come up with some good stuff. The Ionic 5 N and Ionic 6 N are probably $70,000 cars, I think that's a lot for a Hyundai performance mid-size sedan or crossover. A Cadillac CT5V (not the Blackwing) started at $51k, might not be as fast in a straight line but probably overall on a track is, and the aforementioned Audi RS3 is $59k! Now if Hyundai builds that 74 concept for under $45k, goodnight 300Z, Supra and Mustang (Camaro is going goodnight regardless).

I first said the Taycan was the fastest EV around the Nurburgring, which it once was but the Plaid beat it. I brought up the AMG GT63 4-door and the M5, which are both faster than the Plaid, so is the Panamera. 3 sedans faster than the Plaid and the Plaid has 400 hp more. Proving my point that it doesn’t have the handling or braking.

Per the Tesla website, the base rear drive standard range Model 3 is 3,862 lbs, 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and 272 mile range. The 2022 Mercedes C300 is also around 3800 lbs, does 0-60 on 5.3 seconds per Car and Driver test. I wouldn’t really call the C300 a sports car either. I don’t see how Tesla takes 400 lbs out of a Model 3 without shrinking the battery and sacrificing range.

I'll pass on the carpeted dash and 90's bus fabric seats. Also not of fan of the center only screen with no instrument panel behind the steering wheel, wasn't a good idea on the Toyota Echo, I don't like it on the Tesla, don't like it here.

I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too. And I think you can compare EV to ICE. My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only. You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower. Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens. And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up. A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there. I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid. I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45 and that was set in 2017. GT63S has the 4-door record still, and that's basically an E63. And these are cars that the Tesla has 400 hp on which further proves my point that it sucks in the corners. The Corvette has 50% the horsepower of a Model S Plaid and is quicker around the Nurburgring by a few seconds. There is no electric car that can handle as well as a good ICE car, it's just pure fact. I hope they fix that in the future. But until they do, you aren't going to see the "fun to drive" $40k (or less) EV. Maybe Hyundai will figure it out.

Well the Taycan had the record. The AMG GT63S is 7:23 though, beats the Plaid by 12 seconds. The Black Series is 6:43, over 52 seconds a lap faster. The Hummer might handle well for a 9,000 lb vehicle, but that's because it weighs double of a normal size SUV, so what do you compare it too. I am saying where is the EV that can handle with a Miata, BRZ, Corvette, Boxster/Cayman, etc. Car and Driver compared the AMG EQS to the Model S Plaid, stated the AMG is better but it isn't enough AMG. These EV's can blitz a quarter mile, but it is one trick pony performance, so I'd like to see the handling, breaking, weight cutting come into play, which over time with battery tech will eventually happen. I hope Hyundai makes the 74, but it's a $75k car or more if they put 577 hp in it, the Ioniq 6 N is probably a $75k car, that's getting to low end Corvette money. That's too much money for those. Right now $40k is the base Ioniq 5 with 168 hp that weighs 4,000 lbs, not exactly a Golf GTI or Civic Type R competitor for fun factor.