smk4565

ATP has nothing to do with revenue when you have no volume. Cadillac doesn't have enough buyers willing to spend "MORE". People are willing to spend money on Escalades, not the rest of their stuff. If people were willing to spend more for a Cadillac, the CT5 would cost more than an E-class or 5-series and outsell them. Likewise with the CT4 vs the 3-series, or the XT5 vs the Lexus RX, or the XT6 vs the MDX.

20,000 is not enough, need to be able to produce 100,000 a year for the USA, probably same number for China. Lexus sells over 100k RX's just in the USA. I read Ford plans to produce 270,000 Mach-E's next year. But they have sold 17,000 in the first half of this year. Not sure how they get from 34k a year to 270k a year, but scale is what matters. Tesla is the only car maker producing EV's at scale right now, all the other guys keep advertising their EVs, but they don't have them on dealer lots. Tesla sales are up 46% this year while the market overall is down 18%. There is demand out there for cars and EV's especially, but no supply.

If Cadillac we such a cash cow to begin with GM would not have had to file bankruptcy. GM didn't get enough volume or profit margin out of Cadillac back then. They could have done a car like the Sixteen, I never expected a 13.6 liter V16 to hit production, that would be a CAFE and emissions nightmare, but they could have done a full size car with the supercharged Northstar to stay more cost effective and had a big luxury car that probably what they were doing for DT7 at the time. (could have put the supercharged Northstar in the Escalade 15 years ago also) But there are probably a lot of things Cadillac would have done different if they had a redo. Going forward, the Elmiraj is a good looking car, even though coupes/convertibles are practically sales proof, I would still bring back the Eldorado and use those 2 concepts and the Lyriq as a guide. If they can price the Lyriq at $62k, and they should be able to build a coupe for less than an SUV, I don't see why an Eldorado coupe can't also be $62k, maybe $65k if you dress up the interior a bit more or need a little money for suspension/handling. Then the dual motor Eldorado can be $70k, add $5-10k for the convertible, whatever that costs, probably would have to go soft top for weight given that it's an EV. And I'd size it similar to a CT5 or Lyric, somewhere in there, a full size coupe will never sell, keep it mid-size, then you can do a mid-size sedan that shares parts with it, plus you are sharing from the Lyriq too to keep cost in line. We also haven't seen the production version of the Celestiq yet, only a concept car with no stats. So we need to see the the actual proaction car to see if they did get the quality, materials, etc correct and if what they built is worth the price.

Because the point was brought up that Lucid is a threat to Mercedes. If Lucid is threatening to put Mercedes out of business they Honda, GM, Hyundai/Kia who are all smaller companies should be really worried. In reality, I don't see Lucid as a threat to any OEM because there is a limited number of people buying $100k and up cars, and if that is all you do, it is hard to make profit as an independent, which is whey Bentleys have VW parts under them and Rolls-Royce has BMW parts and why Aston Martin buys engines, transmissions, electronics and infotainment off Mercedes because these small companies can't develop that stuff, it costs way too much. Lucid only survives if they start selling $40-50,000 cars at volume.

Revenue, ATP has zero to do with Revenue. Mercedes had $136 billion in revenue in 2021, GM $127 million and Honda $124 Billion. My earlier point at Lucid not being a threat is because Mercedes is a huge company, Lucid is not. Lucid lost $4.7 billion last year, and has $5.4 billion cash on hand, they only have enough cash to get through 2023. You keep saying Mercedes is going down market, then post a graphic that their avg sales price is up 25% in a year, and then you complain that them killing their entry level mode in the US is a failure. So you don't want them to sell an A-class, but complain when they cancel it? Also keep in mind the CLA will become the entry level Mercedes and is priced higher than the CT4, CT5 and XT4. Cadillac has a high ATP as a brand because their lower end cars had terrible sales volume and the Escalade does high volume. I have also said for over 10 years Cadillac needs to go up market. But it was Cadillac who priced the CT6 $30k under rivals, Cadillac who killed the CTS and replaced it with a CT5 that was $10k cheaper, Cadillac killed off the rear drive SRX for a cheaper front drive SRX at a lower price point. Cadillac killed the XLR after 1 generation instead of doubling down and making better car to justify the price tag. Even when the last CTS was around, it was like $8k cheaper than a 5-series or E-class. I have also said for years that they should go above the Escalade and most Cadillac fans are like "you can't do that, the Escalade is the top of the brand." Not only should Cadillac be doing the Celestiq, they should do an SUV above Escalade and a sports car above the Corvette. I just don't like the body style they went with for the Celestiq.

That's all fantasyland. Mercedes-Benz had higher revenue than GM or Honda in 2021. Mercedes-Benz is not a small car company like Lucid, Aston Martin, Lotus, or even Mazda. They don't need a partner, don't have to worry about being too small or not being able to scale volume like Rivian or Lucid will have to worry about. Mercedes is scrapping the A-class in the USA. The S-class outsells all competitors combined, the G-wagen is going for like $200k on the used market, in the up market they are the most in demand brand. The AMG GT starts over $100k, goes over $300k (the Nurburgring record holder), GT 4-door is $100-200k (the 4-door vehicle Nurburgring record holder), a $3 million hyper car that will become the Nurburgring record holder. They have Maybach SL, Maybach EQS, Maybach EQS SUV coming, and a Mythos sub-brand that will be above Maybach and build custom made and one-off cars. Chevrolet sells more vehicles over $50k than Cadillac does, so does Ford. Meaningless statistic. Cadillac quality better than Lexus? XT5 more reliable and with better resale than a Lexus RX350? 10-15 years ago people made the argument that Cadillac is back because they had a 556 hp CTS-V, a 469 hp STS-V, the XLR, an Escalade doing well, then 5 years ago it was a 640 hp CTS-V, another new Escalade, the CT6 "flagship" and people said Cadillac is back and Cadillac sales are worse now than they were then, and pretty much all those products aside from the Escalade are gone. 10 years from now, the Lyriq, Celestiq and Formulayiq small crossover will all be dead, the Escalade will still be there (in EV form) and there will be a new GM at Cadillac and another renaissance 5 year turn around plan bing announced.

G90 I meant.

I don't see Lucid as a big threat, they have no dealers, no charger network like Tesla, no real support system. And they have 1 car selling at low volume. Low volume car companies don't work, look at how often companies like Lotus and Aston Martin, are constantly in financial trouble, Jaguar gets passed around to new ownership ever 15-20 years. Brands like Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini, could never make it on their own, they have to be owned and developed by a big conglomerate or else they wouldn't exist. Lucid will eventually not have the money to develop cars, develop infotainment, self driving tech, etc. Even Tesla who has money, has a 10 year old Model S still out there because they don't have the time or money to make an all new version.

This generation S-class is outselling the Lexus LS, 7-series, A8, GV90 and Panamera combined this year. I don't see any other car outselling the rest of its segment. And I think the Rolls Phantom looks quite good, better than the Ghost or the Bentleys.

The EQS isn't the top Mercedes, the S-class, G-wagen, AMG GT, Maybach GLS all cost more, the SL isn't priced yet, but it will cost more. EQS is like 5th in the pecking order at Mercedes. And it is going fine, they sold 4,048 YTD in the USA, which is more than the Lexus LS or BMW 7-Series and 8-series, or Audi A8 or Porsche Panamera. Porsche Taycan sold 4,449 thus far. And the S-class is still the #1 selling large luxury car (outsells 7-series, LS, A8 and Panamera combined). So EQS isn't doing too bad considering it is the #3 selling full size luxury car, with #1 in the same showroom stealing sales from it. Although the Taycan is actually a mid-size, the EQE is the same size as the Taycan, but Taycan is EQS price.

Both exist though. If I were buying a car now, I'd prefer and EV since I think that's the future and I'll for sticking a middle at foreign oil. But I'd buy an E-class or S-class over an EQE or EQS because the EQE and EQS don't look good, and the E-class and S-class do look good. Also aren't enough EV's out there yet, not many body styles to pick from, most brands have 1 or none to pick from. So that Celestiq still has to compete with the Rolls and Bentleys that are out there now, they aren't only competing against Lucid or the EQS, and really they don't compete against Lucid, the Lucid Air is .4 inches longer than the last Cadillac CTS. The Celestiq I assume is way larger than a Lucid or Model S.

I am not an EQS fan, but I think the EQS looks better than the Celistiq. The Celistiq looks more like Cadillac's take on an Audi RS6 Avant (which the Audi looks better too) and not their take on a Bentley or Rolls. Also the EQS isn't the flagship Mercedes, this is: And it's the only certified Level 3 self driving car available.

Looks too much like a station wagon, it doesn’t look expensive on the outside. The inside is tacky but it’s a concept car and they’ll change that and make it more normal on the production version. I guess they don’t want to talk power or performance until the production version is shown.

I get that the vehicle is all new, but it looks similar to the current Blazer, just a little lower and longer and more wagon like. Aside from the fact that the Blazer should be a Wrangler/Bronco competitor (which would instantly double sales), I think GM went with a similar formula for the EV that they use now. And GM crossovers aren't really class leading or top sellers in any segment. The switch to EV is their chance to do something different and try to recapture market share. A lot of EV's have long wheelbase, the Hyundai Ionic 5 overall length is less than an Equinox, but the wheelbase is just 2 inches shorter than a Tahoe. The Blazer EV wheelbase is longer than the Tahoe's.

This vehicle inside or out isn't too far off the gasoline Blazer, but the EV is $10k more. The Blazer as it is, isn't very popular sales down 17% YTD, 33,104 units sold YTD. Venza is down 48% this year and still sold 35k units, but Toyota sold 70k 4Runners, Hyundai sold 58k Santa Fe, Jeep sold 134k Grand Cherokees, 99k Wranglers, Ford Edge 51k, Kia Sorrento 39k. The Blazer is kind of a back of the pack seller in the mid-size SUV $35-50k segment. I think they either needed a bigger departure from the current model or lower price. The Hyundai Ionic 5 starts at $39,950, that's probably where the Blazer should have been.

I read the LT trims are fwd, and the RS is rear drive and awd is optional but I think you have to get the bigger battery for the awd.

My initial thought is I prefer the Mach-E, EV6 and Ionic 5 to this. Essentially Chevy next summer is offering price, performance, and range that the other guys have now and I think the Kia and Hyundai look better than this.

If Genesis, Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, or Volvo came out with a $250,000 sedan they would get laughed at and criticized. Cadillac is in the same league as that group. I get that the dealer is who is cashing in, but that is because the manufacturers can't get their production up. The G-wagen has over a 2 year wait right now, I don't know how much of that is supply chain or how much is Magna Styer can't produce enough. But if people are paying $250,000 for used G-wagens, you'd think other luxury brands might think it's a good idea to make a luxury off roader.

The electric SUVs are coming like 6 months after the sedans, they do have an electric GLB that will be on sale before the EQE here too. Plus China and Europe where Mercedes does most of their business aren't as SUV crazy as the USA is. And Mercedes isn't in Rolls-Royce's range either. The Maybach cars are clearly above all of what Mercedes competitors offer, but still not Rolls level.

But Cadillac isn't Rolls-Royce, they are closer to VW's price point. The Volkswagen Arteon has a higher base price than the CT5 and they are the same size car. Cadillac struck out on multiple attempts to tackle BMW and Lexus, now they are just going for Rolls-Royce? It's a big jump for the consumer, even if the car has the goods.

Let's say it is even $200k, and priced against a Maybach (sedan or SUV, gas or electric, and there is a Maybach SL coming). This car better be spectacular, because they are working with a badge deficit. And all these luxury brands seem to be coming out with $100k+, $200k+ EV sedans at a time when sedan sales are tanking. Personally I like sedans, but these people are fighting over a really small segment of buyer, and we just saw cars like the CT6, XJ, Continental, K900 all get gilled, because big luxury sedans don't sell, and those cars weren't even that expensive compared to this high end crowd.

Back in 2004 a VW Passat was about $22k base and near $40k for the W8 4-motion ($34k and $62k respectively in today's dollars) The Phaeton was $65,000 for the W8 and $95,000 for the W12 ($102k and $150k in today's dollars). The Phaeton was nearly triple the price of a Passat, a huge jump which is my point. The CT5 starts at $38k, $84k starting for a Blackwing, let's call $60k the middle, if the Celistiq is $300k that is 5 times the price of Cadillac's 2nd most expensive sedan. It is a bigger jump than VW tried with the Phaeton which was an obsessively engineered car. A luxury off roader may not be needed at Cadillac, but G-wagens and Range Rovers go for $50k+ over sticker right now, seems like good business to be in. GMC could do a Hummer Denali (and 100% should) but I there is room above that I think too. Not that GM needs to play in every segment. I'd rather put the R&D dollars into a Cadillac sports car/convertible (especially if it is priced more like the Lyric and less like the Celestiq) where you can build some image and get enough volume to justify the project.

I get that it’s low volume, but it isn’t a hyper car, it’s a full size sedan. This is like when VW brought out the Phaeton W12 and yeah it was a great car and no one bought it and the brand image went nowhere, because it didn’t fit the line up. Cadillac still needs a couple luxury sedans that can do volume, a convertible, an off roader, a sports car, to go with the lyriq and whatever electric crossovers slot below and above the Lyriq. And maybe all of that is coming. The Celestiq better be Rolls-Royce Phantom beating otherwise why not just get a Maybach, Bentley, or Rolls?

No way they can sell over 1,000 Celestiqs a year, at least not in the US, if they are exporting to China, maybe. The EV6 GT-line starts at $51k, that’s 320 hp. There is a 580 hp GT coming. The Mazda 6 is supposed to return as a premium rear drive sedan, Mazda developed a new twin turbo inline six for it and an inline 6 diesel. Also coming are CX-70 and CX-90 SUVs to go upmarket with those engines.

It will take more than one car, and this car has to be successful, not just expensive like the Allante was, but ultimately a flop. And Cadillac still has a bunch of mediocre front drive crossovers and a couple poor selling sedans making up the bulk of the line up. I know all that stuff is probably dead in 2025, but the whole brand needs an overhaul, and they overhauled it in 2003-2005, again in 2013-2015, now again in 2023-2025. They keep overhauling this brand and keep getting it wrong.