FUTURE_OF_GM

Well, We all know it's not cool to make fun of imported brands or even state facts about their shortcomings. (Remember when Acura got mad at CR a few weeks ago?) Looks like the ONE generation that the Japanese captivated is getting older. :AH-HA_wink:

I've said it for years: Hydrogen is where it's at. Imagine going to your local gas station and fueling your V8 G8 GXP with the very same hydrogen that your neighbors Chevy Volt runs on. Both are zero emission vehicles and enthusiasts can still have their fun. But alas, I'm sure americans are too dumb to live with such a practicle solution.

I agree... And hopefully the leadership at GM isn't dumb enough to fall for this sort of thing. (I doubt they are; somehow I think what is said on a message board is FAR and away from the decisions that are actually made) Hope IS very much alive.

I think there is still a role for Pontiac. But the brand needs to be extremely focused and needs to know how to think outside of the box. If GM keeps trying to pass it off as just 'a chevy with a little more icing' then no, Pontiac has no reason to exist. But if they'd get off of their asses and give it the product it deserves, I'm willing to bet that we would all be pretty surprised. If I were Pontiac, I would strive for exportation. I think the division would have a much better chance if at least some of it's models were exported or utilized somewhere else. For example; the next Solstice could be used for Daewoo, Opel and Vauxhall as opposed to the Sky. Or, if GM really wanted to play role reversal, and did in fact bring Zeta to NA, they could use Pontiac to supply Holden as opposed to Holden supplying Pontiac with models. This would probably prove especially successful IF the dollar keeps sinking.

I don't think we will ever see Holden shut down. And it would really suck for us GM enthusiasts if we had the task of building Zetas but couldn't drive them. So this is where the race for Bob Lutz job comes in... The successor was probably going to be Reuss and he was being appointed to Holden because Zeta was so integral to GMNA. But now, that CAFE has essentially screwed all of us over, Forster has a leg up because GMNA is just like GME in many ways. (That could be a very sad thing) So, it'll be interesting to see if Reuss was dispatched to save Holden or essentially shut it down. (Like I said, I doubt Holden is going anywhere though)

Even better!

So put this in your pipe and smoke it: CORPORATE POLITICS 101: My educated guess is this: What does Cadillac want to do more than anything? Be taken seriously as a GLOBAL luxury division. What is required to do that? Success in Europe, on the home turf of the big boys. So, if you were Cadillac and the US Government just made Detroit swallow the death pill of CAFE what are you going to do? 1) Continue on with a portfolio planned on larger cars that probably will not advance your cause in Europe or 2) Tap Uncle Bob on the shoulder and say "Hey, you know what? Since Europe and America are roughly the same now, why don't we structure our line ups the same in both countries. Hence, why don't we take the lead on Alpha; smaller cars that will make an impact in Europe. I mean, after all, Cadillac has expressed interest in a smaller product or a long time (Remember the possible Cadillac Kappa when that platform was thought to be more flexible?) Not to mention, these cars will sit nicely beside the new BRX. And this isn't even factoring in the projected significance of global sales on the GM empire OR the possible huge amount of share that CAFE might cause GMNA to lose. Now, the only kink is the head of Cadillac (Can't remember his name) saying he doesn't want the division to go smaller than CTS-sized and tht could be reason for hope on a BROADER range of sizes on Alpha. GM Europe, already smelling the flesh burning from CAFE here, allies with Cadillac (The corporations crown jewel) and voila, they have MAJOR input on future product. All the more because a more successful Cadillac in Europe means a stronger GME as well. What about Zeta then? What about it? You do like our friend PCS says and sell the platform in Oz and China (Where big cars like that are allowed now, funny, the communists have more freedom of choice than us, lol) Or you can do like Forster wants and essentially structure Cadillac (Off fo Alpha) to be a serious threat in the US and Europe, then you use Buick (Already the top brand in China) along with Zeta to own the market there. Holden then becomes nothing more than the Vauxhall of Oz and will probably see Zetas and crappy little euro cars. Or Chevrolet will be introduced in addition to Holden OR Chevrolet just replaces Holden (Because THAT would go over well) As far as GM do Brasil; they see an increase for business for their home room now that CAFE sucks and will fight Holden the whole way with the Crewman and ST (Unless the models are limited to 3-4 years upon which new small trucks can materialize) My concern lies with Pontiac... More and more it seems like a 4 year old kid LOST in the catacombs of GM, wandering around, just waiting to either be adopted by a loving leader or eaten up by the trolls under the bridge. If indeed Pontiac did lose Alpha, it appears that it would be because Pontiac is the only NA division that does not sell anywhere else (Despite them basically being Holden now, which in itself looks to have reduced significance) Maybe GMPD should adopt Pontiac as it's official foster child.

That contradicts -or- confirms what we've been told. It contradicts what GMNA is traditionally home room for (Large trucks and SUVs/Cadillac and sports cars) It might however confirm that Cadillac now has the lead role on Alpha. Holden would be assumed to be the traditional home room for Alpha. Zeta has always been a schizophrenic program for some reason. It's almost as if EVERYONE wanted something from it or wanted it to be something different. And that did nothing but cause HUGE delays, waste money and fatten the thing up. Zeta most certainly should be used now and could even be kept around in the future for trucks, if GM chooses to do so. Camaro is vital for PR, Zeta is vital for Pontiac to build credibility again (another reason that I think we will see a G8 ST and GXP) I think, for now the Lucerne and big Cadillacs will also be based on Zeta. I think the big question is not now but where the future lies. Like someone said on cz28.com; the product planners need to begin thinking now about 5 years from now. So the question becomes: is Zeta viable in 5 years time? I fear that the answer is no for a few reasons: 1) Alpha, if engineered right, can eclipse Zeta. 2) Demand for Large cars such as the Lucerne might waiver (Allowing the platform to run out) 3) How much will it cost to update the platform with new technology to get the numbers up when we have Alpha anyway? My only wish is that Zeta comes for now and Alpha is engineered to be smaller and larger with an entire range of engines; including V8s.

You were saying that I4 and V6 should not be in these cars because they are flagships. (At least that's what I thought) If GM really wanted to GAIN SHARE and establish itself as a leader, it would strive to continue to let people have their cake and eat it too, while the other automakers downsize. But no, that's too practical of a solution for GM to ever understand, I guess.

Interesting... That's just what I had heard. Well then, there really is no excuse for Zeta not to come to market besides bull$h! within GM. PCS likes to announce his flights into america; maybe I need to meet him at the airport and give him a good redneck welcome.

CHRYSLER: Has been sold to the Chinese and is now being used to build the Chinese war machines that will take over our country... ON OUR OWN LAND. The government is too busy campaigning for it's collective re-election to notice. FORD: Went bankrupt a few years ago and Hillary Clinton, our president, declared it a victory for "anti-capitalist/anti-pollution liberals everywhere" and made the date a national holiday. TOYOTA: Is the number one automaker in the world with 50% of the market and an entire division devoted to big, FAT, payouts to the media and govenrment officials to "keep the lie alive" HONDA: Has become the second largest automaker in the world and just perfected the worlds first automotive line-up that is completely androgenous and devoid of passion, yet somehow every washed up middle management pencil pusher has to have one. They promote it as non-discriminant in their plight to expand homgeneous lifestyles. NISSAN: has become 3rd world and basically only sells in Russia after selling cars that are both ugly and $h!ty. GM: Is battling for 2% of the market under the leadership Europe and is the last bastion of remotely american automobiles. The government of California is currently working on it's yearly anti-GM legislation in hopes of finally bankrupting the automaker foor good.

I disagree.. Promote the flagship vehciles as GREEN and INNOVATIVE. Example: "Want to still drive a nice car AND save the environment? At GM, we have the solution for you!" But, of course, the V8s will still be optional.

That is the million dollar question... Which leads me to believe that all the talk of CAFE is just politics. Either GM sees the market shifting away from the cars or has a better plan up it's sleeve, or none of these cars were definite in the first place. The GTO/Monaro has been dead, so the only Zeta we've lost is the Impala. And it was common knowledge that 2 Impala programs (A FWD and A RWD one) were being developed simultaneously, so the RWD Impala was by no means a gurantee in the first place. The only thing I can figure is that either Zeta is so heavy that it just isn't do-able or something else like capacity or Alpha maybe being a better plan has gotten in the way. (READ: Not GME)

I think GM's whole problem is the number of trucks they sell in relation to Ford and Chrysler. GM is the biggest and best of the Detroit 3, so naturally Congress figured they'd f@#k GM over the most. Typical... When one of the Detroit 3 gets off the mat, all hell breaks lose to kick them right back down.

Ethanol is a much better fuel for high performance cars anyway. I'm really hoping that someday my fleet of cars can run on straight Ethanol, but my fear is that we'll all be stuck driving stupid assed electric cars. My only other hope is BMW and their Hydrogen program. They were quoted once about NEVER abandoning the ICE because their division is about performance. (Hence the hydrogen ICE program) Guess I might eventually be a BMW man. (Not entirely a bad thing :AH-HA_wink:)

LOL Funny the press never interviews Forster. I've seen a lot of Lutz and Wagoner and even HOLDEN PERSONNEL in the press as of late. Professional jealousy is never a good trait.

GM stated that they would not develop any NEW V8 programs. The LS line is alive and well (Which makes sense as no other automaker has more than one line of V8s)

Doesn't matter. GMNA runs GM and GMNA plans products for GMNA. This whole idea of different factions 'rising up and taking control of GMNA' is just stupid.

True that... V8s are still viable. Once again (I've said it a million times) the industry needs to lead instead of react.

Okay... So, lets consider a couple of points/recap: 1) Rumor has it that Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha. 2) Zeta seems to be too heavy, but not necessarily too big. 3) The Northstar replacement has been cancelled supposedly in favor of V6 power () What *IF* and that's still an *IF* GM does decide to abandon Zeta and it has a 5 year or so cycle. Maybe this is why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha. Instead of using Zeta as the architecture for their future portfolio, maybe they want to develop an entire line from Alpha. CTS and STS can soldier on using a modified Sigma until Alpha is up and running. But where does that leave the DTS and larger sedan? (If there is one) This could be good and bad. Good, if Alpha is engineered to accomodate different sizes of cars, because that means GM would have a much lighter (READ: better driving/performing) RWD platform that might be able to accomodate anything from a 4 cylinder to a V8. Bad, if Alpha is only engineered to be one series sized and can only accomodate 4 cylinder and V6 engines. The only problem is: Cadillac + light weight = expensive. 1 and 3 contradict each other because if, as Griffon says, the Northstar replacement was small enough to even fit in Epsilon, then it would be the only engine currently in development to even be close to fitting in what Alpha was originally supposed to be. So, that would explain why Cadillac wants the lead on Alpha and is banking on V6 power. If that scenario plays out, then Cadillac will be a shadow of it former self and it will be a sad day. I'm not sure how the LS engine line will fit into this. GM has said it will not develop any new V8s anytime soon (Sad) but that it will continue to build V8s indefinitely so, unless that's posturing, I'm assuming that the LS line of engines will be continuosly updated/reengineered. Can the LS engine be put into an Alpha car? Who knows... But I'll tell you this; there was a day when most thought it impossible to squeeze a V8 into a FWD W-Body and GM currently has 4 versions of that very set up for sale, so we'll see. So where does that leave everyone else? Holden would obviously have to be involved, unless Zeta soldiers on as an underpinning for trucks, or it won't be a good day in Oz. (I'm fearing this is what PCS is refering to) If Holden is not a part of Alpha development, does it really have a reason to exist? (Let me be clear that I am NOT supporting the idea of shedding Holden or stripping it) GM do Brasil can develop real trucks while Holden develops car based stuff (Which will probably become more popular if the sky really is falling) I'm willing to bet that the Alpha rumor for Chevrolet coincides with the Camaro moving to Alpha (because exportation was a part of the deal) and because originally (as far as I know) Zeta was a compromise anyway. The Camaro guys wanted something smaller and lighter I believe. We heard rumors that Camaro would be Kappa based, then we heard rumors that Chevrolet was getting a Kappa car in addition to the Camaro as well (So the support is there) I don't think you will ever see an Epsilon II Camaro and I don't think it'll ever be V6 only simply because the car will not sell that way. GM will pull the plug on the program before that happens. I'm assuming (big assumptions) the new Impala as well as the larger Buick (Lucerne replacement) might eventually be Eps II (Unfortunately) But at least maybe Alpha can spawn some smaller RWD models for them, or depending on how big the platform can grow, we'll see. (RWD Nova anyone?) So that leaves Pontiac... Rumor is that the Solstice is apparently being combined with the Corvette and XLR program. Now, this could be a good thing (Better, higher performance Solstice---finally a Pontiac flagship) or a bad thing ($h!ty, downsized Corvette and XLR with less performance and power) Torrent is going to GMC, Vibe has at least 5 years left and can hop on Delta II if need be. The G6 apparently has no replacement as of yet, besides the updated version of the current car. That update can live on until a new G6 is developed from Alpha or until GM assigns it to Eps II. The Zeta G8 can run for 4-5 years, then move to Alpha (Depending on how flexible the platform is and what the G6 does) G8 ST can remain on Zeta (If it's continued as a truck platform) since it fulfills it's mission as a truck fine. The G5 can be developed from Delta II. -OR- GM could be ignorant and phase out the division.

Funny... You're the only "source" with this information. It seems that if the plans were on the books or something was being talked about, other people (which I knwo would DEFINITELY be aware of the program) would be saying so. Is that why GME hates GMNA? Because we chose to tango with Holden instead of you guys? No worries... *If* Zeta is cancelled, I'm sure Holden will score the lead on Alpha and we'll just tango with them anyway.

Well... The reality of the situation is that we've only lost ONE Zeta vehicle. The GTO/Monaro project has been dead as a door nail for a long time, that wasn't even news. And the wagon, although nice, is volume that could probably be better utilized, I'm guessing for the Ute and Crewman which will no doubt sell better than the wagon. I don't really see what the big deal is thus far... We've had 4 confirmed Zetas from day one and we still have 4 confirmed Zetas until Lutz or Wagoner says so. The ST is icing on the cake, as was the wagon, but now instead of the wagon we have the crewman as icing on the cake. As for the Impala, it was in limbo and in trouble LONG before PCS gang supposedly 'took control' (or whatever) of GM.

Well, you know... They do sell that RWD/V8 conversion kits for the Focus... Buy a ZX3, spend a few weeks frankensteining it in that awesome shop of yours, paint it a loud color with 18 to 19 inch wheels and voila.... Personally, I would go with the CXT as well!

Same difference. The question is; do they have anything better than Zeta that can be implemented in a timeframe conducive to CAFE. The answer is no as far as I know. They might control the design of the trucks, but they're not GMNA product planners.

GM is ran from North America... It's ridiculous to even think otherwise. Even if other "factions" gained control (which I highly doubt) the stock is still american and the final decision still comes here.