CARBIZ

Clearly, he has no idea what he is talking about. Britain has a thriving car industry...employs thousands of people! Vauxhall is a British company, not American. Couldn't have written the article better myself. Japan seems to have no troubles spending millions for 'Toyota's' Synergy drive system, so why shouldn't Washington pitch in for Ford and GM to come up with a fuel cell? notgonnahappen.com

I have seen old timers lament the rise of PCMs and fuel injection because they can't do their own tuning and adjustments, like the old days. There are some people who are just automatically suspicious of electronic enhancements. Perhaps people have not been arguing over electronics since the very first automobiles, but I'll bet there were those who protested automatic spark advance and other improvements at one time. GM seems to get their programming done right the first time, for the most part. (Notable exception: the Epica, but I wonder how much of that was GM and not Daewoo.) Even with their trannies: why do GM's 4 spds still seem smoother than Toyota's 'newer' 5 spd: its in the programming. I thing DBW is one of those technologies that just slipped through undetected. Most people wouldn't even be aware that their vehicle has no throttle cable. There are probably a hundred major improvements on vehicles in the past several years that buyers don't have a clue about, like coil on plug designs, etc.

From post # 172: "Actually, when I was refreshing my mind about the '92 Accord, I came across that website and chortled at the low score of 53 (out of 100) for that generation Accord. I never bothered checking the site for the Lumina because a) I know the car well and b) I never put much crediblity in those type of results, even if they support my theory. Let's not get into a war of words. I don't like battling with the handicapped. :AH-HA_wink:

........ 2 years from production and you can tell all that? Wow. Perhaps you should rush out and buy some lottery tickets today.

No, as of '07 they are standard on all models. In '06 they were upgrades.

This is getting a lot of press around here. The CAW is having a hissy fit. What is GM supposed to do? Wave a magic wand and make people buy crew cab Silverados? The posers are the first to bail out of the truck market when things get tough! Even if GM has plans to put something else in the plant, that won't happen over night. In the meantime, it gives GM a chance to kick Hargrove in the balls while he retires!

If you can afford it. Chevrolet is supposed to be for the 'common man.' Otherwise, buy a Cadillac. Of course we all strive for excellence, but at what COST? The Lumina may not be the best example, it only came up because I brought in an ancient Regal the other day that had a ton of mileage on it, had not cost the owner much in the 15 years they'd been driving it and I just wondered WTF is the big deal about driving an Accord?

But that's like saying we should only buy Sony because they make the 'best' plasma TVs. Choice, choice, choice. GM could not possibly hold onto 45% market share, not once other manufacturers started making attractive vehicles. Who the hell can tell the difference between a Panasonic Viera or a Hitachi or a Sony screen these days? I'm sure on some technical level one of them is 'superior,' but who really cares? Why did Lincoln and Cadillac 'own' the luxury market for decades? Partly because they built what the American consumer 'wanted,' but also partly because there was no competition, other than maybe Imperial, which was always 'also-ran.' Have you see a '69 Mercedes or BMW? Compare that to a '69 Eldorado or Lincoln Mark III. But by the early '80s, Mercedes and BMW finally started making good looking vehicles, around the time (coincidentally) that Lincoln and Cadillac started building a lot of crap. Too much consumer choice out there.

If anyone needs a reading test, it would be you. Try re-reading my post in response to Shadowdog, where I acknowledge I had originally ignored the Consumersguide ratings and acknowledged that I don't put much credence in those (or any) surveys. sheesh, we're touchy today. You just gotta get personal, don't you?

Actually, Dodgefan, the Z24 interiors weren't so bad: they didn't have the potato sack material. It was truly the seats that were ghastly, more than anything. Buyacargetacheck, I worked for an auto parts dealership from June '80 to June '81 (the reason I remember that is because I graduated highschool in June '80 and it was my first full time job), so the incident would have been somewhere in that time period. I remember it was a warm day. I'm from Toronto, so Salt Capital of the Known Universe. I am not beating up on Datsun or Honda's bodies. Everyone had a rust problem in the late '70s, early '80s. It's just that the Japanese seemed to have recovered from their reputations, but Ford is still living theirs down. Iaccoca refers to Honda as the Teflon Car Company because bad news doesn't stick. I've been in and out of the car business most of my adult life, and HarleyEarl has a point: everybody built crap in the '80s, but only Detroit's is remembered. I have a number of theories as to why that is true, but there is no point arguing with an 80 year old, who drives a '00 Accord and will never drive a domestic again, based on his experiences with an '83 Ford of a model whose name he cannot even remember. When you are up against that kind of stubborness, there is no point in arguing: a '00 Elantra would be 'better' than a '83 Lincoln, in most respects - that's called progress.

And don't forget, if the 'educated' consumer willingly spends $3-5k more for their choice, over a similar GM product, they are more apt to have it washed, waxed, babied ("don't even THINK about eating in my Lexus!") over the course of its life, thus providing a self-fulfilling prophecy: the import is better because it was looked after better.

That was a common problem with early '80s Japanese vehicles. At one point Datsun was actually using a kind of corrugated steel for their suspension mounts. I witnessed a 240Z lifted onto a hoist at a garage and the wheels stayed on the ground. My ex BF had a '81 Tercel in '91 when we met. He parked it one winter and when I went to have it 'certified' the next Spring, the mechanic pointed out the rear wheel mounts were about to bust right through the trunk. As Iaccoca attests in his first book, Japanese cars had a horrid rust problem in the '80s, but all anyone talks about is the rust problems Ford use to have.

But damn that extension cord...................

Are you saying that is a BAD thing? Lots of people don't give a crap about their cars. They never wash them. They barely have the oil changed. All they expect is the damned thing to start in the morning and not cost them much to fix. Why do self-appointed experts look down on that? It should not be the aspiration of every damned vehicle to do 1.2 G on the skid pad, 0-60 in 4 seconds and have 22" wheels. That sort of thinking is just warped. 90% of the Lumina buyers were quite happy with their purchase, until the 'experts' started telling them their car was mediocre.

And yet even when confronted with 'evidence,' the naysayers still read from the same prayer book, or did you even bother to read Shadowdog's post from ConsumersGuide? Consumer's Guide ranked the Lumina and Accord exactly even. WHAT'S THAT DEAFENING SILENCE I HEAR? At a GM meeting we were at a few weeks ago, (while comparing the new Accord with the new Malibu, BTW), it was pointed out by GM bigwigs that nobody really builds 'bad' cars anymore, and that the differences are so minute as to be almost indestinguishable. Unless, of course, CR, MT, etc. whip their pet peeve into the End of the World. GM has a perception problem, largely perpetuated by those with agendas of their own. Just wait until the Toyota War Machine ramps up against the Volt.

Automobiles are merely an extension of fashion. Odds are the same woman who will spend $800 on a pair of shoes won't be caught dead in a minivan. Same goes for her BF. It has always been thus. Anybody who bought a Studebaker was pretty much considered a loser, which is one of the main reasons Studebaker went under: they could not shake their stodgy image. Chrysler would have gone the way of the dodo, too, if not for the '55 Chrysler 300 and the revolutionary '57 finned chariots. The likes of Audi, BMW and Mercedes would not even exist if this were not true, for how can anyone seriously justify $100k for a BMW, over a loaded Acura, Buick, or Mazda?

'power reach around?' Where can I get me one of those?

If the eco-freaks have their way, you may some day not have a choice either, my friend. I just read about one of the last remaining farms within the boundaries of Greater Toronto that has been in the same family for 175 years and the farmer is being forced to plant trees on some of his cropland because it falls within the watershed of some stupid river. I can see the day when we will be banished from National Forests because people hiking is bad for the undebrush and the Eastern Prairie Wetland Arborial Snow Beetle. There are already so many friggin' rules in most parks that they aren't worth visiting any more.

It's interesting to note that GM is also simultaneously testing the fuel cell vehicles (Equinox mules) and the Volt electrical technologies. There is bound to be some convergence of research with these two systems, plus GM must be sitting on a mountain of data for the mothballed EV1 program. Also, let's not forget all the hybrid buses GM has had out there for years. GM may be further along in this project than they are letting on, and now Toyota is getting nervous.

I already had that experience once, about 17 years ago when my 3 week old '91 Caprice had 3 holes punched in the hood around the hood ornament and a beer bottle smashed across the hood, causing $1,500 damage. A brand new Accord and a brand new Escort were on either side and they were untouched. It made no sense to me at the time why two other new cars were unscathed, while my big American boat was vandalized. Frankly, living in any urban area these days you are bound to have your car broken into, stolen or vandalized. In the 11 1/2 years I've lived in downtown Toronto (supposedly Toronto the Good) my cars have been broken into 3 times - the last time only 10 days ago. The police just shrug it off as the cost of living in the big city! There will always be those who are jealous and vengeful out there, but have no fear about personal transportation - in whatever form, going away. The eco-loonies will grandstand and have their say, but the silent majority is still a significant majority. What we are seeing now is just hysteria. Undoubtedly, gas prices will stay high, but I am not worried about being a Mad Max scenario where vehicles are abandoned in the streets and street wars break out over fuel.

That reads just like a Toyota press release, printed exactly as released. Isn't that the same Panasonic that had all the recalls on their laptop batteries last year? I guess Toyota is already an expert in electolysis - just look at the success they've had with ionizing their Tacoma frames!

Yeah, if you drive like my Great Aunt. If you drive like a normal person, a small engine is going to croak (or have to be wound up to 5,500 rpm to get any juice). This is why Civics, etc. look great on paper. They perform wonderfully on a dyno.

Which leaders? Define 'leader.' Would the Impala compete against a BMW 3? Clearly, not. Then again, I'd keep the extra 10 grand in the bank, plus those famous service visits and enjoy my 40 mpg Impala, thanks. That is the trouble, though: the media won't judge a vehicle for what it is and what it proposes to do. Did the last generation Lumina provide a comfortable, reliable, safe driving environment for a family of 5 for under $20k? Yes. Would it appease the weekend warrior who thinks he is Mario Andretti's bitch? No. Should it? No. Why does the media in general look down its nose at vehicles like the Lumina? Sure, we can laugh at the car NOW, but judged against its peers of the day (the Taures, Intrepids, Accords, etc.), it was not horrid or awful, just merely average. Instead, the media chooses to badger and cajole your average, everyday American who just wants cheap, reliable transport that they should somehow go out and blow their brains out on an Audi or BMW because it is 'better.' In whose estimation?

Considering the J-cars outsold the Corollas 2-1 right up until their last year, I would hope you would see more of those in the 'junkyard,' as you put it. The trouble with counting junkers is that the stats are meaningless without original registrations to compare against. Desrosiers Marketing (Canada's JD Powers) did just that in 2000, and were confounded to explain why far more pre-1987 GM's and Fords were still on the road as compared to the imports from the same years, as adjusted by the numbers sold basis. Those were real, hard numbers: far fewer 'imports' were still on the road 13-5 years after being sold than were the 'domestics.' Of course, those were Canadian numbers, but since our winter's are generally harsher and we use proportionately more salt, I would say that our weather would tend to mercilessly weed out the junkers.

Well, at least there is no throttle cable to rust with the frame of the truck. Zero media coverage of this around here. Millions of GM trucks use drive by wire and have had no problems.