CARBIZ

Actually, when I was refreshing my mind about the '92 Accord, I came across that website and chortled at the low score of 53 (out of 100) for that generation Accord. I never bothered checking the site for the Lumina because a) I know the car well and b) I never put much crediblity in those type of results, even if they support my theory. So, it would seem that supposedly credible sites like ConsumerGuide don't think the Lumina was any worse than the Accord. Doesn't matter, though. Those who continue buying imports because they are convinced they are 'superior' will continue to do so. Until the last job is shipped to Asia, that is.

Smarter people in what way? Like the widow of my former boss (whose son is now a big shot at one of Canada's biggest banks, thanks to his gold plated education, paid for by years of his father selling Cadillacs) who is now driving a BMW, because her son 'insisted?' Like a former client of mine who had 2 Aleros, and who told me that her boss told her that she could no longer drive a 'domestic,' yet the rail company she works for does a lot of hauling for GM? I drove a '98 Lumina for 2 weeks while my Blazer was in the shop after an accident. Again, the dash and plastics were somewhat lacking, but there was nothing over all wrong with the car. The ride and handling were probably mushy for some people's tastes, but I can remember test driving people in a Malibu at the time and people complaining that they prefered the Lumina's ride over the 'harsher' Malibu. GM's fault was spending the money on things buyers couldn't appreciate during a ten minute test drive: OnStar, automatic headlights, Oil Life Monitor, standard ABS, etc. while Honda provided better door handles. It's amazing how easily people can be fooled. Tyranny of the enthusiasts. 250 hp minivans, brought to you buy the a-holes at C&D, MT, CR et al. 18" wheels on family sedans, brought to you by C&D, MT, CR and their counterparts. We cannot get through the day without being barraged by 'lifestyle' ads and infomercials disguised as news editorials that tell us what to do. Many of the arguments seen right here on C&G illustrate my case. Kids who are pissed that the Malibu isn't available with a standard shift or nav screen becomes a 3 page thread! Supposedly learned people who will cut their own nose off because the Camaro has a B-pilar. People who spend hours on this site, yet miss the irony that they are driving an import - even a used one. Rome is burning, and we are arguing over who forgot to bring the marshmallows.

I still see a lot more J-cars from the '80s than I do Corollas around here, although truthfully they did sell quite a few more. There is one thing that GM (and Chrysler, for that matter) have learned to do well, and that is make solid bodies. I still see a lot of Hondas and Toyotas from the late '90s starting to dissolve to dust, proving that Japan still has some learning to do. Nobody does salt like Ontario does. Before anyone continues beating on the Cavalier too much, please realize that the '03-'05 last generation was set apart from the rest. Under Lutz's stewardship, they received the 2.2 ecotec, a revised suspension, brake upgrades and a new fascia. The biggest problem with the last generation Cavaliers (from '95 onward) was the woefully ugly interior, particularly the potato sack seats. I will give credit where credit is due: the material weathers the test of time very well, but probably because the owners are afraid of sitting on them. Although the final 3 years of the Cavalier lacked the quiet tuning of the Cobalt, the engine and suspension improvements changed the entire nature of the beast. For $h!s and giggles, I remember taking a '03 Cavalier and a '03 Corolla (borrowed from our sister store at the time) for a, ahem, shall we say 'spirited' test drive. No competition. The Corolla actually experienced 'cowl shake' on the horrible roads of eastern Toronto. (The dealer I used to work at was the envy of the nation because it was adjacent to Pharmacy Ave., which still ranks as one of the f'ing roughest roads on earth, thanks to the truck traffic and total lack of attention this city gives to anything to do with cars or roads.) Back on topic, the auto industry has always been very incestuous. Parts companies make parts for many competing makes. Ford and GM have cooperated on many projects (notably the current 6 spd auto), BMW has 'borrowed' GM trannies (as has Jaguar and others over the years), OnStar has made its way into other companies. With the way that higher up executives flit from company to company, there always has been a lot of DNA transfer. But I, too, have wondered why GM continues the relationship in this factory. Surely anything to be learned has been learned (or not) by now.

No, you'll be fine. It's your kids future you should be worried about.

My understanding of the Volt (if it meets its design criteria) is that it will be less complex to build than a Prius, have fewer moving parts, greater longevity and (eventually) be cheaper to build than a Prius. You have to understand that the Prius is overly complex because it is running two sets of drive systems. The Volt will not. The wildcard here is the Lithium ion batteries, but anyone who runs a modern cellphone, as opposed to one from 15 years ago, can appreciate the advantages of lithium ion over earlier batteries. The big question is whether GM can do all of this in time to make a difference. My own feeling is they have to try. They need something like the Volt to reassert beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Detroit can lead again. The time for baby steps is long past. Toyota has been hugely successful with baby steps, and has been unerringly running down GM for 25 years. GM needs a gamechanger, and the Volt could be that gamechanger. Besides, by the time the Volt arrives, GM will have probably 100k or more Silverado/Tahoe 2 mode hybrids on the road, plus all the 'mild' hybrids in the Malibu/Vue, etc.

Why is that Draconian? The rise of Detroit in the '20s and '30s either froze our or bankrupted the fledgling Canadian auto industry. It wasn't until the Auto Pact of '65 that manufacturers had a more stable environment for investing in Canada's auto industry. NAFTA superseded the Auto Pact and Canada benefited as long as our dollar was a .70. Now, Canada has lost more than 200k manufacturing jobs in the past couple years. Hyundai and Kia, to name two, are enjoying a free ride in Canada. They build nothing here, contribute nothing and are given free access to our market. At least Toyota and Honda are paying lip service to the Canadian auto industry.

It's too bad Congress didn't impost a $1 a gallon tax on gasoline 5 years ago and encouraged the type of change we seeing now. Instead, the extra billions are going to Saudi Arabia and Exxon, not Washington. Remember, we were paying $4 a gallon a year ago, and overall auto sales are up this year in Canada. We are seeing a bit of push-back at $5.25 which is what we are paying now. A lot of people are over reacting at this stage.

Don't forget the billions America spends 'defending' Taiwan, Phillipines and Japan: money that could have been spent on paying off the national debt or bailing out the current homeowners who are losing their homes. Japan gets a free ride on so many issues. I say, let Japan re-arm and fend for itself against the resurgent Chinese. There are so many countries who act duplitiously toward America, yet they are the first to come crying when they have an earthquake/volcano or someone else invades them! They are only too eager to let the U.S. foot the bill. We should not be mirroring what Europe is doing. Within 2 decades Europe is going to collapse under the weight of its own hand-wringing, self-hating political correctness. The riots in the suburbs of Paris are only the beginning. We in North America need to forge our own destiny.

It's the same snobby writers who aided and abetted the rise of SUVs that are complicit in the rise of 'cross-overs.' How many more times are we going to reinvent the station wagon? Minivans are the best of all worlds for a family. Hopefully, GM will soon start offering their better offerings from Europe.

The CAW is putting the Oshawa headquarters under an embargo; literally surrounding the main building with their own vehicles to block personnel from entering. This is in response to GM's announcement they are closing the truck plant next year. This is attracting a lot of bad press, which is what the CAW wants. The total irony is lost on those idiots. Bring more pressure on GM, and they have more reason to shut the rest of the plant down, too. Gad, these guys just don't get it. The $C has been at par for a year now. Canada has lost its productivity edge over American plants, let alone those in Mexico. Meanwhile, over in Oakville on the west side of Toronto, Ford has quietly gone about expanding its hiring there to build a new cross-over. The way the media is spinning this, of course, is that GM is collapsing, not adjusting to the new market. Any dolt can see that GM has no choice but to close the Oshawa plant now that the total truck market (not just GM's) is in free-fall.

That's better than my new neighbor's puppy barking until 1 a.m. this morning! Ontario has the WORST weather in the known Universe. (I hear parts of Mars are considered by some to be a little worse.) We hit over 100 yesteday and Friday with the humidex. Where else on the planet do you get 110 in the summer and - 10 in the winter? Spring doesn't exist any more. It was 60 degrees on Thursday, over 100 on Friday. The Great Lakes are one huge heat sink, pumping humidity right over southern Ontario. Although, Buffalo seems to get worse storms than we do and we don't get hurricanes or tornadoes to speak of................

That's a good point. GM is getting a lot of bad press around here because of 'closing' the Oshawa truck plant next year. Any idiot can figure out that the crewcab luxo pickups will be among the first to crash when gas prices go nuts. The media is just heaping more BS on GM and their 'gas guzzlers.' No mention of the fact that the Silverados actually get better gas mileage than the Turdra, or that the hybrid Tahoes will do more for the environment than the Prius! Part of that is GM's fault. The only car ads I see around here on TV are for the Malibu and Astra. There are a lot of print ads for the Uplander/SV6 and the Cobalt/G5, but mostly just talking price points. We've had a lot of interest in the 'hybrid' Malibus, but naturally we can't get them. As I have repeatedly said, it will be a rough year, but once the new Aveo is out (about 2 months), the 'new' small car, the new minivan (all slated for mid-year next year), things will look up. But GM has to get the message out that it builds more than gas guzzlers.

Yuck. I remember the summer of '93. I drove to Vancouver, via Chicago, Minneapolis and South Dakota. My ex-BF and I planned to sleep in the back of my '91 Caprice wagon, except when in major cities. It was raining so hard one afternoon that we had to pit stop in Gilette (who could forget a name like that?) and stay in a hotel. That was one water-logged cross continent trip.

Yes, Japan certainly understands this. I read an article today in the National Post that Japan is actually feeding rice to livestock because they have so much stockpiled. Apparently, under a round of GAAT that they lost a few years back, the Japanese market was forced open to 'cheap' imports, so the Japanese government buys their 'quota' of imported rice, and warehouses it. Now they don't know what to do with it, so they are feeding it to livestock. On an unrelated note, I am becoming extremely suspicous about this sudden world-wide food 'shortage.' Perhaps the powers that be are getting nervous about biofuels cutting into their profit and are now whipping up a panic on food prices.

The public doesn't know what the hell it wants. It does what it is told. Ever follow the fashion industry? Once a new level of equilibrium has been reached, the dust will settle and GM's stock will rise. GM's fortunes have fallen before, just not under the glaring immediacy of the internet. Toyota and Honda both are realizing it is a lot harder to play in the big leagues.

And what's so memorable about a '92 Accord? Will folks be fighting over them on Barrett-Jackson in another 15 years? I doubt that very much. There was nothing exciting about a '65 Chevy II either. It's only nostalgia that paints a pretty picture of them. We harangue GM for 'cheap plastics,' but who really cares if the car still lasts 16 years? With the mid-sized sedans in particular, they've always been 'vanilla.' I just don't understand why self-appointed critics crap all over mid-90s GM vehicles when they really weren't any better or worse than anyone else's mid-90s bland junk. Could GM have built better? Maybe. But we are only looking back from today's perspective and saying that we now know better. GM's market share slide is due to so many complex issues that I doubt better plastics on a mid-90s Lumina would have changed things. Rather, it is the fact that the likes of Hyundai and Nissan went from building pure, ugly crap to true competitors. Today's consumer is faced with so many choices that by pure statistical chance a significant portion of them are going to fall into a Nissan, Mazda, BMW or whatever. Why wouldn't GM fall to 20%? Not only do I contend it was inevitable, I dare say it was unavoidable. I used to eat only Mars bars, but I got bored of that and switched to Crunchie. Should Hershey's be ashamed because they once 'owned' most of the American market? Should the Board of Mars be fired because they don't have more than 20% of the market? Has anyone out there looked at the confection rack in your local 7-11 these days? I guess fortunately for 7-11, though, they sell more than just Mars bars.

You're missing the point: either there will be NO factories left in North America to build the tanks/ships and guns that will be needed to fight the next Big One, or what is left will be foreign owned/controlled. Even if some capacity is left in the U.S., it the 'ramp up' period from, say, dishwashers to guns is long enough; but if Washington has to haggle/badger foreign companies/powers first to get permission to convert to wartime production - well, let's just say the barbarians will be at the gate while Congress is debating the merits. PS. Where is the Pentagon getting their flat screens for the F-15? Zenith was the last supplier and they're gone.

Sigh. I don't know why people keep trashing GM for building "mediocre FWD generics." I just took in a '92 Regal that has nearly 200k miles on it. The customer picked up their new HHR. We chatted about their 16 year old (Ontario salt!) car and they both said it has served them well and had no major issues. They admit that the 3.8 was getting too thirsty (gas just hit $5.25 today) and they looked forward to the more economy of the 2.2. As I parked the vehicle in our back lot, I thought to myself how much I miss the linear look of those dashes and the two levels of the dash. Everything today is so generic: 3 round bezels with a hood over top. Boring. I remembered a '91 Lumina that I brought in a few months ago, also with a ton of mileage on it. There was nothing generic about those vehicles. So just for $h!s and giggles, I did some internet searches for the '92 Accord to see what the fuss was all about. Ah, I remember those cars. Yes, I remember seeing lots of them on the road at one time. Nothing particularly offensive about them. I like the clean styling of that generation of Accords. But what is there about that car that makes it automatically superior to the Regals and Luminas of their day? Personal taste? An affronted, disgruntled CR writer? Those 4 bangers were woefully underpowered. The 3.8 was a smooth, powerful beast and well renowned for longevity. Truthfully, some GM models hung around too long without being updated (notably the '95-'05 Cavaliers), but when one judges most of the vehicles against their competitors OF THE DAY, GM has little to be ashamed of. It could be argued that Honda, Toyota, Acura and others only got 'serious' about mid-size and large cars in the past few years. Look at the last generation Lexus ES for proof: a blatant rip off of the Camry. For every 3.4 intake gasket story, I can raise you a Honda electrical nightmare, so the truth is in the PERCEPTION. Just because Honda invested in luxury Simmons Beautyrest dashboard material only made from the finest AAA Saudi crude a few years before GM did, does not make it a better car than a Regal of the same era.

In the meantime, I have some great Bre-X stock to sell, if anyone out there is interested.....

You can also thank Washington for the demise of BOF cars in favor of trucks: trucks were not part of the CAFE ratings, so selling a Caprice could cost GM, but selling a Tahoe did not. Detroit saw an opportunity to circument Washington's meddlings and took it. Frankly, it was brilliant on Detroit's part. Unfortunately, as we can now see, reliance on these high profit vehicles masked a lot of underlying rot in the system. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. Although it would seem prudent from a financial standpoint to sell your unused factory to a competitor, wouldn't that be akin to selling a burglar your gun so you can buy a better lock for your door? I would think it would be smarter for GM to mothball the plants, take the financial write downs now, and hope for the day when the plant can be reopened when fortunes improve.

Agreed. Based on the more 'mature' markets in Asia, Europe and South America, I figured GM would slide to 20%. Remember, 20% of a 17 million vehicle market (well, maybe in a year or two ) is a lot of vehicles. Plus, don't forget to throw in another 350k sales in Canada. Long term, though, it will be interesting to see where Detroit's influence on GM global fits in. After all, less than half GM's business comes from North America, and pretty soon that could be 30% of its world-wide sales. When GM starts selling 4+ million in South America and another 3 or 4 million in Europe, Detroit's crown may start to dim.

Excellent points, and that is something I was wondering, too. Like I said in another thread: Ottawa is already rushing to shower GM with cash NOT to close the Oshawa truck plant. GM dumped GMAC and now Cerebrus looks pretty foolish, don't they? It seems to me that there has been a few shrewd chess moves made in the last year or so and I can't wait for the next move. I checked out the credentials of the Board and there are some pretty top notch people there - and from quite a variety of different business/professional backgrounds. Either they are all idiots, Wagoner is an amazing salesman, or there are a few aces up their sleeves to play out yet. Remember, GM brought their top negotiator from Asia last year to tackle the labor cost issue. From what I've heard, this guy is no fool. It seems to me that if the CAW/UAW is beingn so intractible, then GM can always get them through a side door.

You do realize, of course, that what you are looking at is the deletable dividing tray racks, right? Plus, the vehicle in quesiton has the 10" Pioneer sub built into the back, which takes more space. For those who wish 'more' room, you can order it without the squared off housing that accomodates the multi-level tray. Plus, for those who aren't using the back seat, it can be pushed all the way forward (it slides on rails) or it folds down, like everyone else's does. Look, with the rear wheels pushed into the back (like the Maxx did) to make for class leading rear seat leg room, obviously the wheel wells will intrude into the cargo area. It's just a neat idea that suits some people and not others. If you have a couple of 14 year old boys who are over 6' and don't have the money for a Tahoe, then nobody can touch the leg room in the back of the 'Nox. It works for a lot of people, that's all. If a couple inches of width is that important, then buy something else. There is nothing inherently wrong with the design, it just suits a different purpose.

Do you have any concept of the absolute immensity of the populations in those two countries? With their birth rates, they are never EVER going to get a handle on their labor crisis (oversupply.) Look at Mexico: NAFTA was supposed to raise them up to our level of standards, but still the babies keep on popping out. Why are GM dealerships all over Toronto adding 'Spanish Teams' to their show room? In Canada! The Middle Class in Mexico does not want to live in Mexico. Yet Mexico's population is 1/10 of India's. I would wish you are right, but unless their is a paradigm shift in the CULTURAL attitudes in India in particular, and also in China, those two countries simply will not be able to catch up to their own sprialing birth rate. The Tower of Babel Syndrome. Have you read up on what happened when Washington comandeered Detroit's production capacity? What if all that production capacity was foreign-owned. Impossible? Try buying an American built TV. Better yet, trying buying a TV built by an American company, period. Where do you think the innovations and technical upgrades come from? Government labs? Not likely. If Ford, GM and Chrysler go down (not totally unlikely, given our penchant for cultural suicide these days), how would a future Pentagon handle the next big war? If Ford gets 'bought out' by, say, Nissan (I am just making this up), all it's patents and proprietary systems then belong to Nissan.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...suddenly it's 2005 again? Everyone knew about gas prices (maybe not THIS high, but nonetheless, everyone knew.) Everyone also knew 2008 was going to be rough. So what. Maybe the U.S. should bomb Iran so the press has something else to fuss about..