2QuickZ's

I think GM finally realized they were going to need to sacrifice volume to improve their reputation. The Ion was, dare I say, a horrible little car in it's final iteration. I think it had lost a lot of the good will built up with the previous iterations of the car. An "on the cheap" MCE, while probably maintaining sales volume, would have not done much to improve the reputation of the car. In that regard, I think trading volume for reputation, while in the short term will make the division looker weaker, in the long term will pay dividends. It's a case where GM dumped their "typical" short sighted thinking to plan for the long term. This 2 year import job should set up the next generation Astra for much better sales. I agree with this statement all the way around. Still, while a redline version would have almost certainly been a money losing proposition in this generation of the Astra, the money may, in the long term, have proven to be well spent. A redline version would have almost certainly drawn in a younger audience and the tuner crowd. I think that would have only helped the next generation Astra.

I wonder why GM even bothered? Even as basic as this "special" edition is, I'm sure it took more $$$$ to develop than they will ever get back out of it. While I see many signs GM really is changing, it's very discouraging to see the same old GM shine through on something like this "special" edition.

I like how you somehow know something about me from the 45 whole posts I've made on this message board. I also like how sensitive you seem to be to my "personal" attack which was really nothing more than a response to your post implying everybody but you is an idiot that is incapable of thinking clearly. Perhaps I misinterpreted what the intent of your post was and overreacted. I guess when the majority of those who post don't agree with your position, I can understand why it would get tiring and you would get sensitive. I'll keep that in mind in my future posts as it typically is not my intent to "personally" attack anyone. As for me, you really don't know anything about me or what I think. If you'd like to know a few things, here goes: - I think our current president is an idiot and always have. I'm also an independent voter capable of deciding who is the best candidate for me without a specific political party for whom I've pledge my allegiance to making my decision for me. - I agree that most of the problems that haunt GM today were there own doing - I don't apologize for bad product they currently make but I do believe credit should be given for improvements when that credit is warranted - I actually do agree with you on some of the points you make, but I also think that sometimes you are so blindly one sided (the same thing you've accused many others of?), you can't see the forest for the trees. Rome wasn't built in a day just like GM's reputation wasn't destroyed in a day and won't be turned around in a day. While I am very interested in the auto industry as a whole (it pays my bills much as it does yours), I'm mostly on this message board for entertainment. I hope that helps you understand me a little better, if you care! I'll let this thread get back on track now. If you'd like to further this conversation, I'd be happy to do it through PM.

Personally, I don't see the need to respond to every one of your points or posts. I apparently don't have as much free time as you do. Besides, I prefer to sit back and read your posts and be amused. They are always so insightful because they never contain opinion, only fact. You seem to be the only intelligent person on this board and you also don't seem to have any sort of agenda so that helps me trust everything you say. There is simply no way possible anybody else on this site (or in this world?) could have an intelligent thought other than you!

I'm not really surprised the CX-9 won over the Enclave but at the same time I am still surprised!?! I've read a lot of very good reviews of both but haven't driven either so who am I to say which is better. I just really had the feeling the Enclave was going to take it, though.

Is the $3k GM card discount on any vehicle (excl. Saab & Saturn of course)? I know typically most of them have a max discount amount that can be applied from the GM card.

Better than the Avalon?

How could it not be? Toyota makes it.

I've been trying to find out the EPA fuel economy numbers for the V6 version of the G8 but haven't been able to find any information yet. They have had the V8's numbers on fueleconomy.gov for a while now. Anyway, I've seen a few undisguised G8's cruising around (a benefit of living in metro Detroit) and I thought it looked pretty good in person. The last one I saw was a few months ago but it was a bright red GT. It looked hot! I can't wait to check it out up close at NAIAS.

I'm 36.5! Mid 30's must be the sweet spot for car geeks to be on message boards like C&G?

I agree that it looks like a dressed up Vue. I think it looks pretty sharp. Too bad it will also be 300 lbs over weight like the Vue is, too.

This is a long article so I'm not going to post all the text here. It was a pretty good read, though. The rest of the article can be found HERE

I guess that makes you a butch gay guy?!? The Miata part kind of throws me, though. There's nothing butch about that! :lol:

Where to start? Yes, the Vue is more feminine than the old Vue styling wise, but it is also a 10x better vehicle. I guess I'm just secure in my masculinity because I would drive one, no problem. I think it's pretty nice looking. Yes, it is way overweight. How did a "compact" SUV designed in Europe wind up in the 3900 -4150 pound range? I think GM has come a long way in the last few years but they are still seriously lagging when it comes to controlling the weight of their vehicles. This thing should be 3600-3750 lbs (FWD/AWD) max! On the subject of weight, I wonder how much this thing is going to weigh with all the hybrid gear. Lastly, I'll be very interested to see the price premium for the hybrid. I do like the Vue and was considering it for my next vehicle but it kills me that a so called "compact" SUV gets worse gas mileage than the Lamda's (16/23 vs 16/24). While I'm generally not a big fan of hybrids and would prefer to see GM introduce some clean diesels, if the cost/benefit ratio is there, I may wait until fall to pick one of these up as opposed to buying something else in the spring.

Maybe GM should just report combined sales of the HHR and Cobalt like Toyota does with the Crapola and Matrix so the numbers look inflated. Lets see, the Cobalt has sold 183,029 through November and HHR has sold 95,525. If I use this little thing called math that adds up to 278,554 plus you could throw in another 25K G5's (which is the car that really shouldn't be in production). Toyota sold a total of 342,808 Crapola/Matrix in the same time period. Seems pretty close to me. Plus, I highly doubt GM would have sold another 100K+ Cobalts per year just by spending the HHR development money on the Cobalt. If HHR was selling less than 50k per year, I'd agree with you. I know somewhere there is a fleet sales breakdown of all these vehicles but I couldn't find it quickly. I'm curious how the fleet percentages of the Cobalt/HHR stack up against that of the Crapola/Matrix. I'm sure they are higher for the GM products but you sure see a TON of Crapola's in daily rental fleets which is why their end of lifecycle numbers look so good..

GM sold what, 3000 of the new Malibu's in November? That's only 60 per state if you do a straight division by 50 or an alotment of less than two per dealership. Even if you assume certain states have received significantly more than others, I'd still guess no single state received more than a few hundred in the month of November. That could explain why some of you still haven't seen one on the road!

The cost penalty of which you speak would almost certainly NOT apply to any vehicle made in western Europe. Most western European countries have very militant unions and are therefore forced to pay their employees VERY well. If there is any advantage, it would be in currency exchange rates. In this case, both the euro and British pound are worth far more than the dollar, which should automatically handicap them.The labor disadvantage you refer to is primarily for Japanese transplants producing vehicles in the U.S. at non-union plants. Of course, any car imported from a low cost country would also benefit from a labor cost advantage.

My wife had a 2005 Saab 9-3 linear (w/ auto trans) that she leased for 2 years. In that time I can say it did have one minor squeak somewhere near the center speaker in the instrument panel and soft touch paint on the climate control knobs wore off. Lastly, one of the radio knobs (the little push-push ones) cracked. Other than that, it was a great car that got phenomenal gas mileage. It averaged 26 mpg in 50/50 driving over the 2 yrs she had it and averaged 34+ mpg on two trips from Michigan to Florida. I have heard other people say Saab's have a variety of issues so I don't doubt they are real but my 2005 Saab 9-2x (aka Subaru WRX) has far, far more squeaks and rattles than the 9-3 ever did. I guess I would say if you buy used, make sure it still has some factory warranty left. They have a 4 yr, 50k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty and I believe starting in 2007 (or maybe it was 2006) all GM vehicles got bumped to a 5 yr, 100k mile powertrain warranty.

I noticed that about the 4 cylinder/6 speed combo also when I first read the article. Obviously he was confused. I said the same thing in a different thread. They already have turbo ecotech's in the epsilon platform (via Saab). Rather than use a high pressure turbo 2.0L to get 210 hp, they could use a larger displacement engine with a lighter pressure turbo. Say 2.4L and keep the compression ratio a bit higher since it would be light pressure anyway? The turbo ecotech's get great gas milage in the Saab's. We had a 2005 9-3 linear with the light pressure, 175 hp engine and that car averaged 26 mpg in 50/50 mixed driving and got 32 - 36 mpg on two different trips we took from Michigan to Florida. Plus, it used regular unleaded.

The rest of the story can be read HERE

While I do think people won't take this car (or the Aura) 100% seriously until it has an available nav system, I think people who buy a factory nav system are crazy. Save your money and spend a fraction of the cost on an aftermarket Garmin or similar nav system that is portable if you need nav that bad. I'd have to believe you get very little return on your investment in any overpriced factory nav system when you sell the car.

I'm probably in the minority here but I really wish GM would have offered a turbo 4 cyl. in this car. They've already proven they can make a good unit with the 210 hp 2.0L in the Saab 9-3. Why not put a light pressure turbo 2.4L of around 200 hp in this application as a mid-level or even base engine? With that combination it seems they could easily eliminate most, if not all of the turbo lag. Fuel economy is a nice bragging point. To be more powerful than the competition with similar fuel economy would have been outstanding. I love this car, though. As nice as my wife's Saturn Aura is (and it is nice. This car takes way too much of a beating on this website.), this car should be at least an incremental improvement over it. I love the interior styling. I'll reserve judgment on the quality of that interior until i'm able to check out a couple different trim levels in person.

It still amazes me that they manage to sell 30K Crapolla's a month! They must be selling at least 50% of those to fleet. I've driven a lot of rental cars and the only ones I hated getting more than the Crapolla were the Sunfire and just about any Kia. The Sunfire is long dead and even the Kia's are probably better than the Crapolla now.

Anybody know when these things will start being delivered to the dealerships? I stopped at my local Chevy dealer last night to ask and I was told that they have been told they won't start arriving until first quarter 2008.

Agreed. I was just discussing that with my coworkers yesterday. I told them I thought the strike would likely last only 2-3 days with a week being the maximum.