hyperv6

There are no approved Alpha production programs at this point but that is not to say there are any programs in the works. But none are a Camaro as of yet. Also the 6th Gen will be around lonmg enough that a 6th can be develped. And base on the present car it may take 3-5 years min if they were working on it now. Scott Settlemire said already if the Camaro is pulled from the market again it will never come back this was the last shot. So if they are planning a 6th I would expect the 5th to be around long enough to fill in till the 6th was ready.

The same goes for Politics and Hollywood as the press only targets the ones on top. You never read any trash on Don Knotts did you?

Nobody over looked this as this is a different deal all together. Hell I can buy and build a complete 1969 big block Camaro and not use one 1969 part in it. Also I could build a complete 1957 Chevy too. I think all of us here are keeping to the topic of factory built cars. Todays engines are so advanced and well tuned that the cylinder count for a street driven cars is becoming more relitive. In the past you had to rely on Cubic Inches for power but today that is not always the case anymore. I am sure there was someone lamenting the passing of the use of Liberty Engines in Autos in the early 30's when the rather comparitive small flat head Ford came to the market. Change is never easy nor it is alway all bad. In the past we have had some great and better cars come from rules and restriction that we all thought would put us back on horses. There will no doubt be some pain here with some low powered cars and higher prices but we also will still see some performance cars that will give numbers you would not believe. And if all else fails and you just have to have a V8 build a kit car.

Well what I mean by plans is that the people developing the present Camaro have not even finished what they are working on and have no time for 6th Camaro yet. Fbodfather has pointed this out several times as has a few of the other key program people. As for platform planning I am sure the Camaro may listed under a new platform. But at this point the key cars for the Alpha have not been presented in a business case let alone approved. The future for the Camaro lies more in the hands of the Mustang and future RWD from Japan and Korea. If they continue plans GM will move the Camaro from just being considered for a platform to being a develped model. As Chis has smartly pointed out it is very early in this game and the present car will have a 5-6 year min run. And you had better now get used to the fact the new Camaro will be a V6 with a Turbo. The V8 wiull be a rarity reserved for a limited number of cars and trucks. Even most of the 1/2 ton trucks will be a 6 cylinder at best. With the V6 engines producing great amounts of power with much better fuel mileage there is less of a need for the V8 to put down some outstanding performance numbers. The future of performance is more Lotus like. It will be smaller and lighter. In some ways it will give us better braking and handling we could have ever imagined. Either way it is early in the game and with the speed and confidence GM and Ford is killing SUV and Truck sales everything is on the table and not fully planned out yet. Hell if the wrong people get into Washington the next election they can almost dictate what we get and for many of us they will give us what we want. You may be upset about losing the V8, you run a real risk of limits of power being the next target fromt he people who what to care for you from cradel to grave.

I feel a large number have lost some simple car control skills over the years of FWD. I too have driven since the late 70's in all types of RWD cars. These cars have had anything from a V6 to a BBC in them with HP far beyond what is in the G8. Also most of them had All season tires but no where as good as we have today. A good set of All season tires and a limit slip diff will go almost anyhwere you want it to go. Now is you put dedicated snow tires on there are no excuses other than poor driver skill. I today can take my present 2 wheel drive truck right through where my wife gets her stability/traction controled FWD gets stuck. Only traction aid in the truck is at times a 190 pound main landing gear tire from the space shuttle in the bed. No joke!, it fits under the cover and makes the truck ride better. Nothing like getting space age technology to do the work.

From the folks I hear from that are involved the Carmaro is alive and well at the present. There are no plans for a 6th gen at this point because they have not even finished the 5ht gen so we need to give them a chance! Secondly the Camaro was going to be pushed with a quality V6 program from the start and they have a V6 car that will get Highway MPG near 30 MPG andf over 20 MPG City while performing like a 4th Gen SS. The present Camaro also will be sold world wide as I stated long ago and just anounced this week IT will be in left and right hand drive so this car will be a world product and also support sales. THe simple fact is once a 6th gen program is looked at The Alpha or other new platform will take it's place. The V6 may grow a turbo as the performance line just as the Mustang GT will get a Turbo V6 in the future. Any new performance cars are going to be just as the truck in adapt or die mode. IF the Camaro is as well recieved as we hope it should live on. But as withg anything right now this all could change quickly. The MFG are expecting change too as the slow economy is not just a Bush problem but a world problem as prices are spiking elsewhere too. With companies struggling world wide the landscape can really be aultered in 5 years. So until you hear different from GM the Camaro is alive and well and if anything happens expect it to adapt to the market. The bottom line right now is to stop calling it a muscle car or a pony car as it is a performance car and will be competing on a world market in the future.

Buick is and has been the choice of China due to the royal family years ago rode in a Buick. Thatr would be my guess.. Buick is a status symbol there.

Folks untill GM anounces that the following has taken place do not freak out. Buick will not get a RWD. Pontiac is dead. Hummer will be killed or sold. How often have we seen one small snippet of news gets blown out of reason when we do not get the full story or plan. GM has moved ahead on the Cobalt replacment and the Volt is due in 2010. With the way they are moving a lot of things will change and come to market. Many of these cars were already on the books just they were not planning on them this soon. The fact is high gas is here and GM needs to get the small cars to maket to take advantage of them or lose sales to Toyota or Honda. So if GM does not spell out all the detail on a product move keep an open mind as they are not always showing you all the cards. The wording is carefully chosen so pay attention. Case in point when Zeta went on hold many people killed the car and it was a few people like Scott Settlemire of GM pointed out it was a hold and only a hold. Now if GM says no more RWD Buick you will have a good idea but just killing the Zeta is not to say RWD. Same goes for Pontiac as we have not been told of a Alpha. But that does not mean they do not have something better or a later Alpha planned. It is time for most of us to be smart and understand we are only seeing 15% of what GM has planned. I know we here may be better informed than most but even many with in GM do not get or know the whole picture. So pull up a chair get a cold beverage and just watch what happens and what is said. Then use a little common sense with what you learn. I feel in the end while thing are going to change it is not near as bad as some feel it is going to be. I have lived through 2 dooms days before. We will end up weith some cool cars and some practical cars. We will not be with out out toys but they will be different. Time to let the 50's and 60's go and move into the new era or get left behind.

Gee all that complaining in the other thread and it may have all been for nothing again. As I have said before lets let the General speak with their true plans before anyone goes off the deep end. Just because a Zeta is canceled it did nott cancel RWD. We have other options we know of and some we still have not seen.

The folks in Lordstown are celebrating today. They are a very happy group and are glad to be deep into GM's plans. The UAW in that area has learnd by watching what has happened to the steel industry and may end up being theone of the better UAW's to deal with. I hope they have finally learned they need to work together as the slogan goes. If I hear any leaks about what is going on I will pass it along. I have a few pwoplw that work there that will say what is going on from time to time.

Finally some one who noticed. They are killing some old vehicles, plants out of the country that are more expensive with the dollar low. Also He never siad Hummer would be killed or sold. He basically pointed out some options and they will make some changes. Don't be suprised if some Indian does not buy them that GM puts the focus on the new small Jeep like Hummer they already have in the works. With a V6 or Ecotech it would be a much higer volume vehicle and more economical not just in mileage but purchace price. Jeep is not what they once were and Hummer can take things more back to basics and do not have to deal with heritage Jeep has to deal with. Anyway none of thid is a shock to any of us and things will work out. At least GM is now waiting to make the changes as they have in the past.

It is amazing how fast this news hit once the UAW signed it deal. Too bad they did not sign it sooner. These are the cars that will pay the bills if gas remains high. At least they are giving us something to drive that is 90 Hp like the old Iron Duke Citations of the past. Not a car I would want but one GM needs. I expect the fuel will be premium but will run ok on regular with a loss of about 20 HP. This is how the other tubo and 3800 series III supercharged engines are running.

Let me clairify, let the ones do the talking that have the whole picture not just a few pixels.

Well I got the call two weeks ago and they said I had to be quiet. Then when I was visiting the plant to see it built I had my Camera phone out taking pictures and was disqualified. So not they have to start all over. Now back to reality....... I never heard a date and did read it was going to be some time before they would anounce the name. I know that they had to pick a list of names and then they had to be investigated only to survive GM legal. I know even when GM knows what name they want ahead of tiume it still takes a long time to find a name that passes approval. I do have the feeling that so many of the sames names were sent in it should help pare down the choices some what.

Here is one thing we have over looked in all of our over reactions. There was a note about SIgma and Zeta being merged. GM said no Zeta but they have not said anyting about a Hybrid of the two being its own platform. GM could have something that will used some of what they already have to reduce cost and weight to still give us something out of all of this. Lets let the people at GM talk first before we write anything off. How many times was the Zeta was thought to be gone before we did get the Camaro, Holdensm Vauxhaull, and G8?

So it is only a GM problem? Few of them can afford a new Civic and they are driving old one's Mom and Dad bought for them because that is what they drive. As for the older cars they can afford 4th Gen Camaro's but many do not want them and pass them and Mustangs up for Civic and used WRX Subie. Your dealing with a generation that has learn from Mom and Dad to buy a 4N car. THis is going to take time to change as even now as GM has cars as good many still will not bite. The bottom line is we got the two Zeta's that matter the most. the rest would be nice but are not make or break cars. If it was easy and cheaper to convert the Zeta to GM's future needs they would. I am sure the last thing they really want to do is drop all the work they have already done. The bottom line is the average new car buyers today do not buy out of emotion, they buy out of what they can offord pice wise and fuel economy wise. They also want a car that is not going in for service repairs as that is time and money wasted. The new Malibu shows GM understand the present day customer who buys the majority of the new cars. The Volume buyers are what pay the bills. You can be upset things did not work out but we hear this song and damce so often form some here it gets old. Real old. You don't have to agree with it, you just have to deal with it.

No one said chang but the fact is understand it is a buisness and not just a company to provide for you and you only. It is about making a buck and a dealer lot of large V8 car is not a wise buisness move at this time. It is your right to spit into the wind all you like but it is not going to change a thing accpet make you miserable. For the most part the rest of us like what you like and want what you want but we just get tired of the B@tching. We are the minority and just have to learn to deal with it.

Again you have a alternative avaiable now or in the near future other the meth? Hydrogen keeps staying 10 years out and LPG just has never taken off. It make sense but there are none out their people are willing to pay for as long as gas is cheaper.

After looking at sellections form Hyundia, Kia, Honda and Toyota who's to say they are already not? The average car buyer today buys a car from a Automall with many sellections. They come equipt with either Consumer Guides or a web recomendation under their arm. If you asked them what Pinifiarina was they would say it was a drink. The average buyer wants a Low Payment, Reliability and Good Mileage in a car that is easy to drive and is inoffensive in looks. The car enthusiast is a dying breed and along with them go the interesting cars. With schools preaching from the Book of Al and his coat of global warming it draws more out of each generation. Right now my heart say build more Camaro's, G8's and CTSv series cars but my brain said under prevailing market conditions GM needs the best dam Aveo they can build. As for lost times and years in the past, they are just that years in the past. If one remainds in the past he will never move forward and never improve the future. I lived through the 60's and they were not as good as some would like you to believe them to be. Every decade has it's ups and downs and even with some of the downs right not we are in a pretty good age for the moment so if you want that Camaro or G8 and can afford the fuel get it and enjoy. Live for today because it may be gone tomarrow.

Camino you know I agree with you 99% of the time but for once PCS is the one here speaking the reality of what GM has to do. GM got caught with their butt out in the wind back in 1973 and have been playing catch up with the cars from Japan since. GM has not shifted way from your wants the market as a whole has shifted away. The sad fact is cars today to most people are just appliances and a way to get to work. A cup holder, a low monthly payment, MPG and I pod plug is more important than larger sway bars and 8 cylinders. You often lament the lack of a manual geart box and GM does not offer it. Well GM would offer more of them if people would just buy them. Whey build cars that few want or buy. The fact is the market is passing the Auto Enthusiast by. We are now out of the norm and the less there of us the less things that will be offered to us. We will always have some form of performance but we will have a more limited low cost selection. The bottom line is it is not GM fault it is the public buying habits that are dictating it. I know your upset as GM may not offer the car you want but many share holders would be mad and selling their stock if GM did not build car suit for market conditions and the kind of cars the market is calling for. The best thing we all could do is get the young kits to put the game boy down and take them to a car show, go to a race or hand them a wrench...... If the younger generations wants do not change there will be even fewer car enthusiast. It is sad in most Walmarts most Hot Wheels displays are being sorted through by adults in their 30's or older. I have already taught my 7 year old how to change tires and next we will learn how to change oil. Even if he does not get into cars I figure this kind of thing will help him from being a Lub Shop Victim. Oh yes, I buy him a lot of Hot Wheels too.

A norrow mind is no way to grow older. I claimed I would never go to NYC and after I had to spend a week there I had one hell of a good time. Still would not want to live there but I would lover to back for a visit. Give them a chance and see what comes. If not your going to miss some things you will be sorry you missed. We had too many old men years ago driving Model T's when they could have had enjoyed the ride in a Cadillac. But they did not want to fool with theose new fangled cars. One of the coolest things I have seen in the last year was a V10 Diesel Audi prototype race car. Thst is something in the past I would have never expected.

The Alpha will be more expensive as all cars are going to increase in price by a good margin. Hybrid Tech and lighter weight materials will drive the price up on all models to uncomforable levels. The Alpha can and I expect will be expanded as it was to the point it could be changed and not a lot of work needed to be redone. As for those wanting V8 engines start looking at what other companies are offering. Audi just had a line up with V8 engines but less of them. They as many other companies are looking at Turbo V6 and L4 engines with some really going to diesel. My next thought is how long till GM lets out they will offer more diesels? Since Lutz down played them the rules have changed in the game. GM has em and it would not take much other than more money to get one. Vs the price of a Hybrid it may make a good option. Who knows the next genration may all want no cylinders. We are only one big Middle East crisies way form oil prices never imagined. and you don't think Hamas has not noticed what it would do to our economy. A terror attack on the oil fields would be unmatched as any as it would effect every one in this country not just a few thousand. At this point large platforms are not going to effect GM in a large way but great small fuel efficent cars are the life blood of GM's future. I am not crazy about it but that is the reality of it. Gas prices alon have killed the SUV and Truck market in just a couple of months. That is faster than the Goverment was doing it. The wallet will dictate what sells in the future. Not RWD, V8's, GPS, Etc unless the oil markets bottoms out soon.

If you note the Cobalt vs Camaro it puts the size in proportion. I have tried to like the Challenger but it just comes back to being a out of proportion 1970 Challenger. I know they save money by using the 300 platform but there was a price to pay for doing it. What killed the new Challenger for me was when they photographed a 1970 next to a 2009. It is important for the new car to move the design ahead and that is where Chrysler failed. Not badly but not as well as Ford or Chevy did.

Ok I see your wisdom. Let see the rules were changed and oil prices are off the chart [neither GM could have predicted] So GM decides not to put any more money into a over weight car thast would only sell for a few short years to a limited group of buyer? Zeta may have not completed it mission here but it has done well elsewhere and it has paid for itself. By putting more money into it here for a sort term deal it would never break even for all that they would sell. I agree the G8 will be phased out but it did not cost much to bring it here and the work was already done. Second the V6 proigram was in place long before the oil price hike and CASFE changes as if you knew so much you would understand the V6 Mustang has been the back bone of their sales. For once the plan and timing of pushing a V6 program in the Camaro is right on the money. They are not brain washing anyone they are just tring to reach more buyers as in the 4th gen they coulod not give away a V6 and not enough people would buy the V8. I knew 2 years ago that a 300+ HP Camaro was coming and stated so right here. This was long before any dark new to change GM's plans. In todays market to put out any more 2 ton plus cars of any kind that sell for less than $40K is nuts unless your a high line brand. If you can sell a Silverado or F150 the most popular brasnd what make you think you will sell tons [pun intended] of a large Buck. After an start up run on it it will fade quickly and sit on lots much longer than your cold Saturns. Few people will be spending more money for the next 1-2 years on large cars. The market is going to be soft and even lower gas prices will help in the short term. GM needs to make the best and most efficent lighter car they can right now as that is what most other compnies will hove or already have. I would love the Zeta to continue but this is a place to think with your head and not your heart. In the last yerar we had two major changes happen that are game changers that GM could not forsee or change. Adapt or die.

Buick is not dead... a little more delayed but not dead. As for the wisdom of not moving ahead with the Zetas it the end it will prove to be a wise move. Why put more money into a platform that will not live very long, is over weight and to make it right has to be more than a rebadged Holden. You can sell Truck and even the 300 Sales are not staggering. So it is time to take a step back and do this right the first time. Just because the Zeta is canceled it does not mean RWD is gone. A enlarged Alpha can be done easily at the point it is at right now or a sister to the CTS would also make a very good Buick. It takes litte imagination to understand the options they have. As PCS has pointed out the new Invicta will show how far a Delta II can be pushed so a Lighter and a little smaller Buick may just fit the bill very well. As for the G8 it got a pass just because it was a rebadged Holden. FOr what little cost to make it a Pontiac made it a no brainer to move ahead. Also the Camaro is in a Class of it's own. It will sell V8 engines no mattter the cost of Gas to the enthusiast while the V6 program is going to pretty much back this car. You will be shocked at the V6 program once it is anounced. It leaves off where the 4th Gen SS left off. At this point how many of the true Lutz cars have been very far off the mark? It is time for many to start trusting in what he is doing as he has now given proof he has got a clue to what people want. It is better for Buicks health now to build for 10 years ahead vs getting hit like they did with a lot of 2 ton Duce and Quarters back in 1973-76. Back then it took them 5 years to pull ahead and in the end ended up with much better cars than what they had. Time to trusting in Lutz and company. This is not the same group of Roger Smith idiots we had before. Would you ever had though anyone could have converted the Malibu back into a car people would demand just 2 years ago? Or offer Saturns people would really want and not just be the only car they could afford.