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longtooth

Toyota 'Sees' GM and Raises...

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Toyota will announce a new strategy and a new 'plug in' today. Hint: It has nothing to do with Glade or air fresheners, but it'll roil the atmosphere somewhat.

GM's been beating the Volt drum for some time now, and along comes Toyota in an attempt to grab themselves a share of the 'glory' attached to the debate.

the link: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...1/80611032/1014

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:rolleyes:

Who didn't see this coming.

Still, nice to see Toyota chasing GM for a change.

True. Yet they are possessed of a unique singularity of purpose, not to mention 'possibly' being funded by their home Government. An unalloyed sin here, but everywhere else, the norm.

It'd be great to see GM embrace cunning and stealth too.

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That reads just like a Toyota press release, printed exactly as released. :rolleyes:

Isn't that the same Panasonic that had all the recalls on their laptop batteries last year? :unsure:

I guess Toyota is already an expert in electolysis - just look at the success they've had with ionizing their Tacoma frames!

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That article posted here yesterday from The Atlantic said that Toyota would have a fleet of these things on the road in 2010, but it would be a fleet of test cars. GM is being very agressive with its start date and testing procedures.

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It's interesting to note that GM is also simultaneously testing the fuel cell vehicles (Equinox mules) and the Volt electrical technologies. There is bound to be some convergence of research with these two systems, plus GM must be sitting on a mountain of data for the mothballed EV1 program. Also, let's not forget all the hybrid buses GM has had out there for years.

GM may be further along in this project than they are letting on, and now Toyota is getting nervous.

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It's interesting to note that GM is also simultaneously testing the fuel cell vehicles (Equinox mules) and the Volt electrical technologies. There is bound to be some convergence of research with these two systems, plus GM must be sitting on a mountain of data for the mothballed EV1 program. Also, let's not forget all the hybrid buses GM has had out there for years.

GM may be further along in this project than they are letting on, and now Toyota is getting nervous.

Been hoping the same thing. The programs are highly secretive and proprietary. We 'see' the tip of the 'berg. I'm sure GM'll not strike it.

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there's a prius driving around toronto these days (i think it has gov't of canada stickers on it)...but it has a big decal saying "PEV -- plug in electric vehicle" on the back

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there's a prius driving around toronto these days (i think it has gov't of canada stickers on it)...but it has a big decal saying "PEV -- plug in electric vehicle" on the back

But damn that extension cord...................

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On Tuesday, Toyota said it will start making the Camry hybrid in Australia and Thailand as part of its efforts to step up production of “green” cars around the world.

Toyota outsourcing jobs? Who'd a thunk it??

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I find it humorous that Toyota can get away with their strategy while the domestic-front, particularly GM gets slammed for eco-terrorism (yeah, I know that's over-emphasizing the extreme, but it's to the point). What do I mean? For years, and most recently, Toyota has been pushing development of bigger trucks to capture some of the market held by the domestics. Their marketing strategy of a rugged, cowboy-hat-wearing, wise-sage-advice-providing tough guy dolling out philosophical mumbo-jumbo to reach the inner Monk in everyone seems to escape the attention of people whom would otherwise use this as ammo against a company like GM if they were to have this same marketing strategy themselves. After all, it's capitalism, where the whole intent is to bring the masses through your doors to buy what you are making; however, Toyota will surely get applause for their efforts in 'going-green', when all GM ever got was. 'Wow, that EV1 program was beaten with an ugly stick and thrown off a bridge. Should we still give credit to them for trying?'

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I find it humorous that Toyota can get away with their strategy while the domestic-front, particularly GM gets slammed for eco-terrorism (yeah, I know that's over-emphasizing the extreme, but it's to the point). What do I mean? For years, and most recently, Toyota has been pushing development of bigger trucks to capture some of the market held by the domestics. Their marketing strategy of a rugged, cowboy-hat-wearing, wise-sage-advice-providing tough guy dolling out philosophical mumbo-jumbo to reach the inner Monk in everyone seems to escape the attention of people whom would otherwise use this as ammo against a company like GM if they were to have this same marketing strategy themselves. After all, it's capitalism, where the whole intent is to bring the masses through your doors to buy what you are making; however, Toyota will surely get applause for their efforts in 'going-green', when all GM ever got was. 'Wow, that EV1 program was beaten with an ugly stick and thrown off a bridge. Should we still give credit to them for trying?'

Food for some inconveniently unpleasant thoughts 'Dog. Thanks for bringing those up.

Edited by longtooth
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It's interesting to note that GM is also simultaneously testing the fuel cell vehicles (Equinox mules) and the Volt electrical technologies. There is bound to be some convergence of research with these two systems, plus GM must be sitting on a mountain of data for the mothballed EV1 program. Also, let's not forget all the hybrid buses GM has had out there for years.

GM may be further along in this project than they are letting on, and now Toyota is getting nervous.

GM should be sitting on a mountain of data from the EV1, but from what they have released about what they have learnt from some of the Volt challenges (e.g. a stereo uses a lot of power, weight vs aerodynamics effect on range) shows that whatever they learnt from the EV1 is extremely limited or didn't get passed on. I think the biggest lesson of the EV1 was not to push technology before its time, and I think the Volt shows that they haven't quite learnt that yet.

As for GM's hybrids:

1) Hybrid Buses. The GM hybrid bus fuel saving was hyped as "up to 60%". But as King County has shown even when they are compared to their relatively inefficient Bredas, < 30% is the best you can expect. As others have shown, 10% over a new non-hybrid bus is about what you can expect.

2) GM's BAS systems. In a recent comparative review, the VUE greenline got ~20MPG as compared to ~24MPG for a non-hybrid 4cyl RAV4. The Vue greenline actually got the worst fuel economy and the worst performance of the 5(?) small x-overs tested.

3) 2-mode. With BMW and Mercede's assistance GM has managed to produce a decently performing product. Unfortunately it is still too expensive.

All-in-all, not a great record. It looks like the Volt is continuing the tradition of too much hype and being too expensive to be a good solution.

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........ 2 years from production and you can tell all that? Wow. Perhaps you should rush out and buy some lottery tickets today. :rolleyes:

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GM should be sitting on a mountain of data from the EV1, but from what they have released about what they have learnt from some of the Volt challenges (e.g. a stereo uses a lot of power, weight vs aerodynamics effect on range) shows that whatever they learnt from the EV1 is extremely limited or didn't get passed on. I think the biggest lesson of the EV1 was not to push technology before its time, As for GM's hybrids:

1) Hybrid Buses. The GM hybrid bus fuel saving was hyped as "up to 60%". But as King County has shown even when they are compared to their relatively inefficient Bredas, < 30% is the best you can expect. As others have shown, 10% over a new non-hybrid bus is about what you can expect.

2) GM's BAS systems. In a recent comparative review, the VUE greenline got ~20MPG as compared to ~24MPG for a non-hybrid 4cyl RAV4. The Vue greenline actually got the worst fuel economy and the worst performance of the 5(?) small x-overs tested.

3) 2-mode. With BMW and Mercede's assistance GM has managed to produce a decently performing product. Unfortunately it is still too expensive.

All-in-all, not a great record. It looks like the Volt is continuing the tradition of too much hype and being too expensive to be a good solution.

1) & 2) How is this any different from people reporting 'only' 38mpg in their Pruis? As with any car: mileage will vary with how you drive it.

3) Mercedes and BMW did not contribute any engineering input to the 2-mode hybrid system. Their contribution was 'cash'.

As for the "and I think the Volt shows that they haven't quite learnt that yet.", how exactly is the Volt showing that? It isn't even on the street yet! Last note; the 2nd generation BAS system hits the road next year. It has a larger battery, and at low speeds, it assists acceleration (and all for a slim price tag). Heck, your tax credit almost *completely* pays for the mild hybrid system. How can you go wrong with that?!?

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Plug-in hybrids are cleaner than regular hybrids or gasoline cars.

Because they shift some of the pollution from the car to the electrical grid.

This can be good and bad, depending on how the electricity is generated. A lot of peak power demand is made using coal, so recharging during the day is out of the question. Most people will recharge overnight though, which is off-peak usage. These cars may indeed be cleaner overall than a regular hybrid.

The problem with plug-in hybrids is they are like a normal hybrid with hundreds of pounds of extra batteries/larger electric motor/more complexity added to them, reducing the efficiency of the vehicle. A lightweight hybrid with an efficient gas engine makes more sense to me, as it will require significantly fewer resources to create, put less strain on our electrical grid, and be more economical for the user.

Isn't the next Prius supposed to cost the same or slightly less than the current Prius? Will this be a plug-in hybrid or is the plug-in going to be more? I don't see how the Volt is going to even have a chance at competing with the Prius if the Prius plug-in ends up being about the same price as the current Pious.

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Plug-in hybrids are cleaner than regular hybrids or gasoline cars.

Because they shift some of the pollution from the car to the electrical grid.

This can be good and bad, depending on how the electricity is generated. A lot of peak power demand is made using coal, so recharging during the day is out of the question. Most people will recharge overnight though, which is off-peak usage. These cars may indeed be cleaner overall than a regular hybrid.

Shifting the pollution to the electrical grid is still good - a coal power plant should pollute significantly less to provide that energy than a small, comparatively inefficient, ICE. Off-peak is definitely waaaaay better, though. :)

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With the increased usage of 'smart meters' (ones that allow for discounting of power used in off-peak times and penalties for power used during peak times), many people will recharge their cars over night when they aren't using them and power is both cheaper and more plentiful. Smart consumers already do this with running their dishwashers and clothes dryers at night.

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GM should be sitting on a mountain of data from the EV1, but from what they have released about what they have learnt from some of the Volt challenges (e.g. a stereo uses a lot of power, weight vs aerodynamics effect on range) shows that whatever they learnt from the EV1 is extremely limited or didn't get passed on. I think the biggest lesson of the EV1 was not to push technology before its time, and I think the Volt shows that they haven't quite learnt that yet.

As for GM's hybrids:

1) Hybrid Buses. The GM hybrid bus fuel saving was hyped as "up to 60%". But as King County has shown even when they are compared to their relatively inefficient Bredas, < 30% is the best you can expect. As others have shown, 10% over a new non-hybrid bus is about what you can expect.

2) GM's BAS systems. In a recent comparative review, the VUE greenline got ~20MPG as compared to ~24MPG for a non-hybrid 4cyl RAV4. The Vue greenline actually got the worst fuel economy and the worst performance of the 5(?) small x-overs tested.

3) 2-mode. With BMW and Mercede's assistance GM has managed to produce a decently performing product. Unfortunately it is still too expensive.

All-in-all, not a great record. It looks like the Volt is continuing the tradition of too much hype and being too expensive to be a good solution.

A cynic till the end aren't you? I recall when teh first news of the Volt's production came out you went on and on about how it won't happen, and it is happening. Funny how you've been proven wronng at every turn. I hope you like crow.

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