guionM

I wrote that. It's based on the apparent fact that while everything else made at Oshawa has a future there of some duration during & after the plant is revamped, Lacrosse apparently does not. Impala, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, and Regal names all have a long standing exclusive agreement with the local CAW to produce those cars at Oshawa. Allure (the Lacrosse's name in Canada) also is part of that agreement. I kept speculation, unsubstantiated rumors and sensitive items out of that post. However, I'll say on here that the Lacrosse name most likely won't continue when or if a replacement is made. I can easily take a wild guess at one of the reasons, but still the Lacrosse seems to have been a transitional car for Buick, and was scheduled for a comparatively short life anyway. Lacrosse Super is unaffected. The investment into making the Super was very small... the setup is already in the Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, and Grand Prix GXP... and can easily be a 1 or 2 year car (remember the supercharged SS?). The G6 is going nowhere, it's doing very well now. The Grand Prix is eventially going to move to the rwd chassis (my guess is a year or 2 after Chevy has their RWD sedan). Buick is getting a convertible. No idea as to when, or it's name, or even if it's going to be on Zeta, no ones offering details. But they will say that they are working on one and it's going to be made in North America..

Well.... lets see: 1. I said the car Looks like it was based on the Lucerne, which judging by the roofline, it did. 2. I said IF this was the new Impala, which indicated my doubts. 3. I speculated on what it meant IF it was the new Impala. 4. I addressed another item brought up that speculated that it was a Chevy for a foreign market. I know that we're at loggerheads since I stated (pretty forcefully) that Pontiac would be getting a RWD sedan before your stated 2011 date (which I believe you set because you were unaware of what was going on outside Detroit). Now it surfaced that this exact thing is in the cards & that Pontiac will be displaying a Zeta based model at the next Detroit show, that the next GTO is a go for 2008 (which you stated wasn't going to happen multiple times) and suddenly here you are ripping apart a speculative post of mine (because you suddenly can't tell the difference between it and my informative posts?). I freely admit I get it wrong sometimes. Plans change, every automaker's future car plans are in flux until the final approval where the money is comitted. Things also are sped up. But most importantly, there are frequently counter plans, and small groups who are working on alternatives apart from the main body. I have a little bit of a handle on what's passing through Holden, which often isn't on the radar screen of alot of people who aren't directly involved in a project. You have your strong points as well. I think the big difference between us is I don't feign infallibility. I have no intentions in getting into a flame war with you because I still have respect for you as an industry insider (and time will tell who's right or wrong...and I have a long memory :AH-HA_wink: ). If you want to wear that respect down over something trivial, that's up to you. If you want to respond to this you you can do it publically on this thread or privately by e-mail. Your choice. It will say alot about you. .....NOW..... about that Buick convertible...... Yes, Buick will have a convertible. No it won't be a Statesman, nor will it be imported from Australia.

Not sure where you come up with that hypothesis. Car sales are seasonal to begin with, so it really doesn't matter when a car comes out. The newMustang came out in the fall (and the 1994 SN95 Mustang a couple of days before Christmas) & did exceedingly well. Chrysler's LXs came out succesive summers and did very well. Solstice hit the showrooms late fall-early winter. Still have a waiting list for 'em. Yes..... yes, you are. Camaro isn't a "Global" car. The BMW buyer is going to buy a BMW. Ricers are overrated. Do you know what the #1 and #2 selling sports coupes in America were in 2002? Mustang was 1. Number 2 was........CAMARO! Currently, Mustang is selling more coupes than all other competitors combined. Think about that while you are pushing for a G35 or BMW 3 series Camaro.

Not quite. Re-read what I wrote. I based that on the photographer's report that the car was "much larger" than the current Malibu, and that the roofline very closely resembled the Lucerne. Even the writer of the article was fooled (...but Pontiac Lucerne?... Come on!) BUT, I also.... in capital letters.....in bold print......and, in the color RED.... printed the word "IF" followed by "this is the new Impala....." because I wasn't completely convinced it was. I finished the sentence with it "...means a few astounding things", which I listed. I could see the logic behind the idea of a Lucerne based Impala as a steping stone to the RWD 2010 Impala. The RWD Impala will be a large car, and this idea would be a interim vehicle. Also, there wouldn't be an overlap between the bigger 2008 Malibu and the current Impala (which will be similar in size and sold side by side for awhile). However, GM's going straight for the prize, no steping stone. Malibu & Impala replacements are going to be drastically different from the current offerings. You win today's prize...... whatever it is. Epsilon 2 is over rated. It's simply a wider Espilon structure that's AWD capable. Seems GM simply decided to use the current (and still relatively new) structure with some upgrades for the new Malibu. The Espilon 2 offers no advantage to a car like the Malibu, at least in the immediate future. Ep2 is likely going to another division first where AWD is a better fit. This really isn't something that would be fit in with a volume and value divison like Chevrolet, but would be ideal at Pontiac for the next G6 or some future Saab or Opel/Saturn. Ep2 ISN'T some ultra-modern uber-structure. Basically it's an AWD capable Espilon. I agree!

Whadda ya mean? Dumb GM has nothing planned for Pontiac! The earliest GM can get anything going for Pontiac is 2025 or 2030. Then again, whadda I know. :AH-HA_wink:

I agree 100% that styling is the key to coupe revival. There is no longer a point (or a market IMO) for the old method of creating 2 door versions of sedans and expecting them to sell. At the same time, these new coupes need to be able to be redesigned at..say... 3 year intervals. 4 with a refresh halfway through. I do have to disagree with the final paragraph to a degree. The market can handle various coupes from manufacturers if: 1. There are no more than one entry in each class of coupe from a manufacturer. 2. If the structure they are based on is as flexible as the Chevy version of Zeta is. 3. Styling of these coupes are very different... ie: No "common language" with other vehicles in the showroom. Camaro and Monte Carlo wouldn't overlap any more today than it did in 2002. Demographics were different, and the sales of one didn't impact the other. It seems the only reason anyone has issue with this is because it involves 2 cars with rear drive and V8s as the top powerplant. That's a very narrow view, and isn't supported by anything other than fear based speculation. There can't be 2 Camaros at GM, and there can't be 2 Monte Carlos/Chevelles. But if the next Pontiac GTO is going to be once again a single model, modest production car, then we are no doubt talking about a GTO that's going to be pulled off of a high volume large coupe. Much like how the new Escalade is a Tahoe with a new nose and interior. Since Chevrolet is going to be GM's volume division, it's Monte Carlo/Chevelle would seem to be the donor car. There wouldn't be a large market for the GTO, but then again, it wouldn't need to be. As for other car makers, it might be difficult for Ford to produce RWD Thunderbird coupe for their showroom, but it would be easy for them to produce a bigger RWD Mercury coupe. Chrysler could easily create a totally different car by grafting a Chrysler front end and a luxurious 2007 Sebring-like interior to the Dodge Challenger, soften the ride a bit, and market it as a modern luxury coupe. The G35 coupe created it's own sales. So did the Solara. Thunderbird's 70,000 annual sales evaporated into thin air when they killed it. So did the 30,000 solid or so Buick Regal coupe sales. Ditto the same number of Grand Prix coupe sales when it was pulled. There are plenty of people who had to move out of Camaros and into sedans when they got married and had to buy something a bit more responsible. These are people who went to Grand Prix sedans & Buick Regal sedans (just as late 90s GM management planned), Ford Taurus, or Japanese coupes and sports sedans. This is a group that simply can't be all coralled into a Chevrolet Camaro anymore than attempting to coral them all into a Cobalt coupe.

Evok and a few others have made the valid point that the coupe market isn't what it used to be. For some time the couple market has remained static, and it's a point I've brought up in the past. However, there's something else to consider. As coupes were killed off, there were no spikes in the sales of the remaining coupes... something I'll call the pontiac syndrome: kill of models without replacements, then make an issue of how your sales have dropped." Consider these examples: * When Ford killed off the Ford Probe, Mustang sales didn't spike. * The death of the Thunderbird had zilch effect of the Monte Carlo. * The Camaro's death did not send Monte Carlo's sales upwards. Ditto Cavalier coupe. * Killing off the Grand Prix coupe, & the Regal coupe didn't send Monte Carlo's sales skywards. * Ford killed the T-bird in order to help Lincoln Mk VIII sales. Didn't work. * Killing Toronado didn't help Eldorado. In ALL these instances, we have coupes whose sales dropped to a point where it was no longer feasible to redesign them, or they didn't sell enough to fit into factory plans, or the manufacturer believed that the sales of one would roll into the other if it was killed off. In every example, that isn't the case. The point is that there could very well be a large number of potential coupe sales. Far larger than we think.

Shouldn't be. The majority.... yes, majority... of F-body owners are NOT firebreathing, V8, wannabe profesional racers of varing degrees, but simply people who want a good looking, sporty car. Especially true with convertible owners. The best selling convertible in the country the past few years has been (sit down for this) the Chrysler Sebring with the Mustang V6 right up there with it. The Pontiac G6 convertible is new, great looking, well made, and is in a market that isn't exactly overpopulated with affordable, "right sized" compacts. I'm not the least surprised that the G6 convertible is a success. Certainly not shocked that former F-car owners are buying them.... or that there are alot of people who might have otherwise bought imports springing for the G6 as well.

Actually look at the front overhang & the distance between the front door and the wheels. It's FWD. It's the Malibu that's moving up in size to fill in for the Impala.

Are you planning to buy a Buick? Are you in Buick's demographics? The LWB model is perfect for Buick. It's easy to apply a single standard to all cars, regardless to what market it's planned for. Buick is for people in their 50s who want a comfortable, good looking, non dramatic ride. The Lecerne is doing very well. The Statesman in the pictures is going to be positioned as the "aspirational" sedan. It's not going to sell in huge numbers, but it's going to be the ultimate Buick sedan. It certainly looks the part. If you want more dramatic styling in a luxury car, that's why Cadillac exists. More money, more power, more style. If you want stylishness in a cheaper package, that's going to be Chevrolet. If you aren't quite at Buick's age level yet, and appriciate German car's restrained styling and emphasis on chassis, performance, and interior comfort, then you're going to want a Pontiac. If you like imports, you'll love Saturn (even though most models will be made here, they are copies of what Opel is selling). BTW: for those of you who think the regular wheelbase car looks bland, keep in mind it's painted white, and the pics are at a distance. You can't see the details of the sheetmetal.

By all accounts, the Impala is going to have a bigger impact on the market than Camaro, yet very little is being talked about here. Camaro is a downright stunning looking car. However, the Camaro is actually rediscovering a market segment that has always relyed on stunning looks to survive. The sporty coupe market, despite the ramblings of some, is heavily based on looks, not 0-60 performance. This is an extremely style conscious market in which cars typically have a life span of 3-5 years with a distinctive life cycle that goes from hot to mainstream to yesterday's news, then a new style comes out. However..... The family sedan market is completely different. People buy family sedans because of value, safety, quality, & dependability. NO ONE buys a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord rates styling as one of the top reasons they bought the car. It's the car's image and reputation that's sold the car. That's why GM (and other makers) have failed to steal back buyers despite the fact that current Malibus and Impalas are actually on par (and in many ways better) than competing foreign cars. The way GM is going to compensate is by putting traffic stopping design on their upcoming bread & butter cars. 2 cars that are known to be stunning are the next "Impala" and the next "Malibu" (in quote because names might be repositioned). The Impala is described by everyone I've talked to as beautiful. Unlike the non descript character lines on the current Impala and the swishes that look like afterthought on the Malibu, the next Impala has sculptured sides that resemble Impalas of the mid 60s. Circular lights (perhaps even "squished" like Camaro's) adorn the rear. The front end has what's being described as the "NEW" Chevrolet front end. The next Impala is a full-size car. Although there's no released or postable numbers, the Chevrolet "Zeta" had it's debut on the Camaro. The car's 76" width can be expected. About 3" wider than the current Impala and 2 wider than the Chrysler LX cars. Length isn't likely to be much longer than the current Impala's (and Chrysler 300's) 196". Wheels are pushed to the ends of the car. Some call it extreme. Also, the interior to front wheel distance can be altered in the Zeta. Chrysler's LX cars have a long 120" wheelbase (110 on the current Impala). I'd expect Impala to have something similar, with Camaro concept-like front & rear overhang. Interestingly, simply adding a 10" longer mid-floorpan section between the wheebase of the 186" long, 110" wheelbase Chevrolet Camaro concept makes a car that is 196" long with a 120" wheelbase keeping Camaro concept's short overhangs... of course, keeping the 77" width (the 79" width in the press release was a misprint). While the Camaro is visual candy, Impala is really the groundbreaker. It's going to be RWD, it's going to be on a somewhat revolutionary (and adaptable) chassis, it's not only going to be well made, but it's going to be drop-dead goregous by all accounts, it's going to be very quick (.....perhaps very very quick), and it's going to probally have a manual (that new automatic based RWD one that's described in another thread). I don't know much about the next LX cars (due about the same time as the next Impala). But GM is SERIOUS about the Impala, and it seems that while Camaro is getting all the press, it's Impala that going to have the big impact. BTW: speaking of Chrysler, they aren't sitting still. The LX cars will get a new interior for 2007 that is both better styled and supposedly closes any gap between imported cars.

Actually, if I were doing the setup, it'd be: Sedans: G6 Grand Prix (restyle) G8 (Commodore SS) Coupes: G5 (Cobalt) G6 GTO No overlap with showroom mates from Buick. As for the rest of your post, a thought: Cadillac > Pontiac > Chevrolet in price and position. Sigma > Zeta > Zeta-lite (Zigma) in both price and position.

Throwing this out for discussion. The linchpin of GM's restructuring is incorperating it's worldwide engineering and design to avoid overlap and to save alot of money. Saturn is essentially becoming a US distributer of Opel. There will be unique models such as the Outlook that won't be sold over in Opel dealers in Europe, but the rest of the line will pretty much be identical, right down to the grilles. Saab is now made everywhere except Sweden (Cadillac's BLS is made at GM's Sweeded plant). What if you have a passenger car division (like, say....Pontiac). You have a successful model (the G6) and a car that's an established FWD volume car (say the Grand Prix), that's going to sell 120K plus per year as long as you keep it relevent. You want a GTO that you only expect to sell 15-20K per year. This division is going to be rolled in with another (Buick) that has a pricey flagship sedan (Lecerne) that represents what that name is about. You also need a sedan that defines this division (Pontiac) as an excitement division, and RWD is what you need, perhaps only about 30-40K of 'em annually. Now recently (within the past few years) you have just spent a vault full of money expanding a plant (say in Australia) to make a bewildering variety of models off of the same chassis. You then decided to cancel this because it was too much to demand, and layed off a number of people. But you still had all this extra capacity that was made to produce SUVs, small trucks, etc.. But you decided instead to use small SUVs and trucks, etc... from what you already will produce in the United States. This plant will begin manufacturing sedans for it's traditional markets (Australia, New Zealand, and the Middle East), but still has excess capacity of perhaps 40K or so annually. Add to this: a) This brand (Pontiac) isn't going to be phased out. b) This plant (in Australia) is expected to ramp up to full capacity within a year or so of it's new model (the VE), even though just sedans are scheduled) c) This new model (the VE) will probally have a life span of about 4 years before it's replaced by the US version of this chassis. d) The US version of this chassis's sedan is comitted to 1 division (say Chevrolet) for at least 1 and maybe 2 years before it goes to other divisions. Noteworthy items: 1. 2 knowledgeable people taking 2 opposite sides on if a particular car (Pontiac RWD sedan & GTO) is being made. 2. A General Motors product Chairman confirming that a certain car (a GTO for 2008) is a "Go" (as well as mentioning a "Statesman" sedan), but says of Camaro: "There's no reason it wouldn't be approved" ..... at the same news conference! (worth noting that GTO and Statesman are Holden Australia cars) 3. "Zeta 2" (as it's coined around here) is 1 to 2 years behind the VE based Zeta. While Zeta turned out to be moderately expensive, Zeta 2 was designed to be low cost, high volume, and predominately Chevrolet's. Now the "What If" questions: 1. What if you had a car that was created in a country (Australia) with exports to a particular country in mind (the United States), being made in a plant that has more capacity than it needs, at a time you are reducing the number of factories you have in the United States (you have only 1 in Australia), and you need a couple of high powered halo cars for a division (Pontiac)? 2. What if this chassis was too pricey to be sold as a $22K sedan (mid-level Chevy), but was just fine as a $32-35K one (Pontiac or Buick)? 3. If GM can turn Saab into a distributer of GM's global products, and turn Saturn into a US Opel distributor, wouldn't it seem logical that GM use 1 of it's US nameplates (or combined brand showroom like Pontiac-Buick) as a distributor of Holden sedans including a coupe? Zeta based cars that were originally planned as exports to & production in the US, then were sidelined while GM restructured their entire RWD program, then approved in much smaller scope than originally planned. No one has said we wouldn't get a version of the VE. Infact, it seems certain that we will.

Yep. Just a matter of time before I stumbled on it. 1. Meebee. 2. Don't forget the Corvette that's being screwed together as we speak. I think we'll see Camaro & maybe GTO quicker than expected. Everything else needs plant space which I don't see till no earlier than 2009. And what if the next Pontiac (including GTO) wasn't made in North America? .... afterall, Saturn is becoming Opel with certain models made overseas. The right hand of GM doesn't know what the left is doing (remember this analogy in the future, I promise you'll see a glaring example of this), so it's best to take a composite of what we say, and draw your own conclusions. GM today isn't the same as it was last year, let alone a few years ago. There are so many fragment teams, skunkworks, side decisions, and back doors being used that it's impossible for anyone of us to say definitively what is or isn't happening without help from someone high up in product. Then there's that issue of GM's dwindling funds and that pesky Delphi situation that can screw things up even worse. Bob Lutz is actually a dead on source of information as to what's happening at the moment, and can be used as a very vivid window into what the different development arms are doing. Lutz is prone to confuse figures, and when he 1st got to GM, he regularly misjudged how GM operated and ate crow alot. He may confuse 160K Camaros with 160K RWD coupes, but if he says the GTO is "on", it's safe to take it to the bank. All of us (from me to fbodfather, and everyone in between) has struck out on some information or another. Best thing to do is take it all in, and watch what happens.

A few things to add. 1. GM refused to sell the Caprice tooling partly because they planned to move 1998 Caprice (actually B-body tooling) to a plant in Mexico. GM had already certified the LS1 engine in the body, but at the last moment decided not to continue the B-body. 2. The '84 Monte Carlo SS' engine had a Corvette based cat, slightly different timing, and a dual snorkel intake. It was otherwise the same engine you could buy on other MCs. 3. GM discontinued the "SS" name on Chevrolets in the mid 70s due to insurence companies laying surcharges on the name. Nova SS became Nova Rallye, Chevelle SS became Laguna S-3, Camaro SS was replaced by a repositioned Camaro LT, & the planned Monza SS became the Monza Spyder. 4. Speaking of the Monza, it was initially going to replace the Camaro, which was due to be phased out over the 1975 to 77 timeframe. Firebirds would have continued till at least the end of the decade. The original Pontiac Grand Am of 1973 was initially concieved as the new GTO.... as a sedan! It was changed at the last second, and that's why the '73 Lemans GTO looks like a base LeMans with stripes and didn't even have Trans Am's SD455 5. The mid 90s Impala SS got it's start when Jon Moss passed a customized Caprice on his way home from work, and he followed it. He talked the owner into coming to GM the next day and had a number of people there take a look at it. The production Impala SS had police brakes on a passenger car chassis (police versions were slightly heavier) & Buick Roadmaster seats. Rims I believe came from 'American Racing'... just like the car Moss followed. I'm actually putting together a book on automotive trivia.

Their RWD replacements will come on line, as well as this $100K Cadillac if BL is ever able to get GM's PPC to approve it. You're probally right (you aren't the 1st one to say this), but I'm still keeping my money on Camaro going to Wilmington for now. Yep. That was part of the original early "Zeta" planning, when the car was initially supposed to replace the Bonneville and Park Avenue.

Both of you are mostly right. Monaro was designed to be profitable st 4-5,000 cars per year over a 36 month lifespan from 2001-2003 model years. Monaro was done on a budget of about $65 million (by comparason, the redesigned nose on the '98 Camaro cost about $200 million). GTO was set up to sell a maximum of 18,000 tops per year over 3 years from 2004-2006 model years. This also extended Monaro's production an extra 2 years. The money GM-NA gave Holden to create the GTO was pretty much used for the fuel tank move, the Pontiac grille, the exhaust tuning, US certification, and doing it all in just 17 months. The rest of the car was essentially a middle-east spec (left hand drive) Holden Monaro/Chevrolet Lumina. So, instead of the Monaro being profitable selling 15,000 cars, it wound up set to sell 82,000 cars. Even with GTO falling short of projections (15K instead of 18) the car still sold over 75,000 copies, 15 times what it was slated to. The only thing that shot GM's profit projections on the car was the falling US dollar and the stronger Aussie dollar. Shipping costs have nothing to do with expensives, since it's simply added in (roughly $6-800 per car). GM didn't quite make as much as they had hoped on the GTO, but don't shed a tear. They still made a tidy profit, and are very comfortable selling the 15K GTOs annually they did for 2005 and will likely do for 2006. BTW, FWIW, GM would extend GTO's production till the next one is ready if it wasn't for the new airbag and interior passenger impact standards that take place in September. GM (rightfully) doesn't want to spend the money redoing airbags and the dash for a car that's only going to be around 1 to 1 1/2 years.

The NYPD car is for the NYIAS.

Rear windows have "BMW"-like dog legs. Dual exhaust tips stick out the back. Front end has a far better grille. The proportions of the drawing-photoshop are wrong and goofy. Nose isn't that short and bulky looking (though it is a little taller to pass Euro pedestrian standards I think). It's actually proportioned closer to the current Holden V-cars if memory serves. Otherwise, looks pretty close methinks. Especially the tail.

Should have been clearer earlier. GM intends the Zeta plant to be extremely advanced, and whatever the successor of C-flex, GM intends to use it. 361 was postponed because GM felt the money needed would be better used for the Zeta program (not Camaro exclusively, as you pointed mention). GM is prioritizing projects, and using refreshinings where they feel they can. I'm aware you are attempting to ridicule me here, so I'll be more specific in the future. Again, I'm quite comfortable in waiting to see how things will play out.

No, not a replicator. C-Flex, combined with other programable systems GM intends to use. http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=4441101

Completely dead implies that the truck will be killed without a replacement. Thios isn't true. It will eventually be replaced. It's just that this carline based on Zeta is the most important thing in GM's pipeline right now, and everything else is on hold because of it. Yep, look for reskinning and interiors soon. Hardly leaving the truck for dead. "Computer math" = design adapted top a vehicles hardpoints = design done. Most certainly won't be 2007MY! We are already in MY2007! 2008 would be a big rush, but definately not inpossible. 2008MY ends in 21 months. Word is interiors take only a year, and with this new machine that doesn't need tooled stampings, only....... "Computer Math" programed into it ........ to create a body panel, almost anything's possible.

On a side note, for what it's worth, the GTO design was done before Camaro's & though most of the VE Commodore is based on the VZ, the floorpan of NA Zeta & Holden's is pretty much if not exactly the same.

Seems I'm missing a good thread here. I'm going to say some things (hopefully nothing I shouldn't), and I'll leave it to everyone to ponder. Sorry no dates, model names, or blueprints. Things are moving way too fast and often with Zeta to jepordize connections now. 1st, Holden is supplying the suspension. The IRS and the front strut suspension design is on the VE. All the durability testing is done & the car will be in production in about 6 months or so. That's an area that GM-NA doesn't have to do. Saves time. 2nd, the Camaro, Impala, and the other Zetas aren't going into styling clinics. They'll be shown at autoshows, or at limited showings to members of the press, insiders, some stockholders, and various outside VIPs. This saves time in design evolution. The cars don't have to go back for styling revisions, and the cars aren't "Designed by Comittee". 3. The VE Zeta will share alot of structural stampings (or mildly revised ones) with the current VZ which was what our Zeta was initially based on. These cars were at the 18-24 month timeframe when GM-NA cancelled them early last year. Evidently, these were transitional cars since there was yet another Zeta (the "volume" version destined for Chevy, including Camaro) that was due in the 2010/2011 timeframe, and would have likely been expanded beyond Chevy. What has essentially been done is that GM-NA skipped over a transition Zeta and accelerated the next Zeta (or you can also say GM-NA created their own version using Holden's parts, which Holden will probally adopt early next decade). When GM picked up their pens again on Zeta mid last year, it was to develop the "Chevy" Zeta. GM has cancelled the new Trailblazer to fund this program, and postponed the next Malibu, and made alot of other changes. What's being missed by those who say there's no GTO being worked on is that the GTO (and certain other Zetas) are done (remember...18 to 24 months from production when shelved early last year?). The GTO (and other Zeta cars) will have their design transfered to the "Chevy Zeta" structure. That's why the only thing that's noticed is the Impala & Camaro, because that's where all the construction work is. The other cars are for all purposes nothing more than a different skin. Something Cobalt has shown can be done in UNDER 18 months. So has the Saturn Sky. That's what's going on this time. Moving on to timeframe. Anything that reaches GM's final approval is 18-24 months away from production, depending on how much money is being thrown into the program. It's easy to look at GM's losses today and declare that GM's going to cancel or delay programs, but you need to look at what GM's PRIORITY PROGRAMS are and why. Oshawa #2 is scheduled to end Grand Prix & Lecrosse production in 2008, and Oshawa #1 is scheduled to end Monte Carlo and Impala in 2009. No product is scheduled for these plants beyond these years. That has to be settled very, very soon.... as in THIS summer. GM also realizes that it is missing alot of potential sales by not having a RWD sedan that's capable of being used as a "aspirational" performance sedan, & suitable for law enforcement and taxi use. Pontiac has a glairing hole in it's sedan lineup that's almost as bad as Chevy's. GM has known it needed a RWD performance coupe in the mold of the Mustang. GM also wants to have a vehicle line that showcases the dramatic shift in styling and the types of cars they produce. This RWD structure is THE top priority at GM now that GMT900 is done. Don't fool yourself that it isn't. When judging how quickly things can be done, it's a mistake to use timelines from a few years ago. Of course, there's no way in hell you're going to see a Camaro in time for it's 40th anniversary. The current target date makes it (and a few other Zetas) solidly 2009 models. I've posted that if I wer betting my home and property, I'd say 2009. The reason I'd say 2009 (that's model year, not calander year) is because there is being time allowed for last minute goofs (like happened with Solstice) and a fairly conservative gestation time for OEM manufacturers. GM has monthly meetings regarding the progress of certain projects, including the Zeta. By the time they reach the internet (or traditional sources) it's usually at least a month or 2 old (and obsolete) already. I've posted quite a few times that unless you are talking with someone with their hands directly in the pot, the info isn't going to be up to date. Also, GM talks about things after it happens. Whether it's Mark Reuss talking about what would have to be done to create a Camaro chassis, or Bob Lutz saying the GTO is definately on. These are old news that typically is cleared or is given parameters by GM's legal department (believe it or not, talking about future models in many cases is cause for a lawsuit by GM stockholders!) before it is mentioned. So when I talk about a Pontiac sedan drawn up, or a GTO for 2008 (which I started mentioning back in January), or Camaro's seemingly shortening projected production date, it's not just pie in the sky optimism. Zeta is GM's most important project right now. They are pulling out all stops in getting these cars to market, taking what they've learned through other recently developed vehicles, and even essentially bringing alot of other projects to a near or total standstill. I've laid everything out on the table as to what's going on (hopefully without burning any bridges), and hope this either provides clairification, or at least gives a bit of perspective of what's going on outside the view of what us info getters (including myself) normally get. But in the end, it's still going to take a press release from GM or a car in the showroom before the facts are known. I'm comfortable waiting till then.