guionM

GNX was the quickest, not the fastest in '87.

Yes, they are getting warmer.

Actually, he wasn't refering to Buick-Saturn-Pontiac-etc. He was refering to Holden, Opel, Saab, and GM-NA as separate entities worldwide acting as fifedoms. Holden was actually extremely profitable till the past year or so as GM integrated them with everyone else. Lutz had to go over and personally take over GM-Europe in order to bring them around. Now Opel is now Saturn (Saturn as you know it is dead), Holden has been all but reduced to a volume RWD engineering studio for General Motors, and only North America is seeing the benefit as far as I can tell (though I'll freely admit, I may be wrong in the end).

You're right. Bob Lutz is ONLY the Vice Chairman of Product Development of the General Motors Corperation, and THE final hurdle before the entire General Motors Product Planning Comittee votes to release funds that that order machinary, remodel plants & set up assembly lines, awards bids to suppliers, sets up final deadlines, sends reports to the Feds on EPA, CAFE, and Safety Complience. No. Bob Lutz, doesn't know what he's talking about. It's all just Bob Lutz's "wants". You're right. Better to wait and believe when the rumors start. It's more accurate than the official word. Guess that means Camaro isn't really definite, does it??? BTW, FWIW, The cars DO have program codes. Camaro, GTO, and the sedans have different program codes. You aren't going to see them posted because they're classified. :AH-HA_wink:

This is the market share as of March 1st 2006. In the intrest of convience, I'm including only makers who have a market share of 1% or more. (If they aren't listed here, they have less than a 1% market share.... yes, this includes Mitsubishi) GM-------------24.4 Ford------------17.4 Chrysler---------14.4 Toyota----------13.6 Honda------------8.5 Nissan------------6.7 Hyundai-----------2.7 Mazda------------1.7 Kia & BMW(tied)---1.6 VW---------------1.4 Mercedes Benz-----1.2 Subaru-------------1.1 Of this group, the company with the biggest sales increase is VW (over 24% increase in sales over last year) followed by Mercedes Benz (over 16%) and Honda (over 14%). Biggest losers: Subaru (-3.4%), Ford (-0.8%), and Nissan (managed a 0.7% gain). Mitsubishi lost 21% of it's sales over last year, enough to give it a mere 0.6% of the US market. GM gained 1.3% in sales (and about 1 point gain in market share). The most mind numbing drop in sales over last year? Jaguar. Down 40%. The most stunning climb? Maserati. Up 115%. Intresting facts: *The single model BMW Mini owns 0.2% of the US market. Identical to GM's ENTIRE Saab line.... and nearly half of Audis. *Pontiac's GTO owns a far bigger share of the US market than the Isuzu division. *For the month of February, Chrysler increased it's gap with Toyota. 15.1% to Toyota's 13.2. *Not mentioned in the press, Chrysler is within 3% market share of Ford and, has a real possibility of overtaking Ford within the next 18-24 months if little changes at Ford and Chrysler keeps expanding their lineup. *The Chevrolet Impala alone could be the 8th biggest selling brand manufacturer in the US, right between the entire line of Mazda and Kia. *Saturn's within 700 cars of outselling Mitsubishi this year so far. Corvette's within 300 of all Porsche models combined. *Pontiac still sold 210 Bonnevilles last month, though the car's been discontinued for 2 years. That's nothing. They still sold 64 Olds Aleros. *Grand Prix fans, sales of your car are up...64.5% over last year! *There were 194 Ford GTs sold last month. An sales increase of 4,750% over last year. Also at Ford, almost across the board their cars are doing very well, only 2 cars seeing sales declines: the soon to be discontinued Taurus (-8%) and the "should-have-brought-over-the-new-Euro-model-instead-of-this-lame-restyling" Focus (-10%). However, Ford's SUVs almost across the board are seeing drops in excess of 20%! The only time you can use "Ford & Mercury trucks and SUVs" and "increase sales" in the same sentence are: Freestyle, F-series, & Heavy trucks. Year to date Lincoln sales are up (Zephyr) while Mercury sales are down (exclusively because of the discontinued Sable). Chrysler 300 was the 11th best selling car in the US last month, and it's sales are still climbing. Chrysler 300 is now the best selling car in the Luxury Large Car segment, outselling it's nearest competitor 2 to 1. Charger is catching on, sales up 26%. Dodge Ram is selling at 50% of what Ford is selling, and 2/3s of Chevrolet's Silverado. Chrysler's minivan is in it's 22nd year as the US' best selling. For those of you who still are locked in the mindset that retro design has short legs, the retouched PT Cruser saw a sales jump of 45%. Sold over 11,000 to Chevy's 8,000 HHRs. About twice as many Chevy dealers than Chrysler, so dealers are making bank selling more PTs through fewer dealers. http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs...603020340/1148 Chrysler http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060201/dew021.html?.v=42 GM http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...=6&docid=23788 Ford http://media.ford.com/article_displa...&make_id=trust

Just wanted to a a few cents to this entire thread. First, Camaro is coming alot quicker than is the norm. *The chassis is already done. The "Zeta" that was killed last year is the VZ based structure. The suspension components are the same, as is the construction method (modular). Once the VE hits the streets, items like the IRS assembly and the front strut assembly are in production. *The car isn't going to go to any clinics. This means that there isn't going to be time spent on restyling or tweaking. *The car isn't going to have to wait for an existing product to complete it's production cycle. Lutz ruled out producing the next Camaro in Canada, leaving one assembly plant: Wilmington. This plant has the capacity for 200,000 annually, but to date is slated for a mere 35,000 Kappas. To top this off, the machinary from the Saturn L is still intact. As soon as the word (and money) is given, we're looking at not much more than 12 months in pulling out the old line and redoing the plant for a Camaro and it's variations. Not saying by any means it could come out in 12 months, but 18 to 24 isn't out the question. Ed Welburn has said the car would be done quicker than usual if approved, and even Scott has hinted that Camaro isn't going to play by conventional timelines. Second, about the GTO: *Pontiac has comitted themselves publically to the GTO... name. *GTO simply won't be a rebodied and reskined Camaro. *If made, GTO is going to be a larger car than the Camaro. *GTO is going to have something unique about it. GTO has a different code name than Camaro does, and it's also been designed by Holden, while Camaro was done here in North America. In the end, it's possible it will be made here, possibly even in the same plant as the Camaro (the whole idea of Zeta is multiple configurations on the same assembly line). But it won't be a Camaro. Finally, about Zeta sedans and Cadillac's coupe: *Cadillac's coupe has been a very long time coming. There's a Business Week article on Rick Wagoner from a few years ago that brushes on it. *It was held up to be part of the next CTS. *It's almost certainly going to be alot more than $35,000 starting. *Nothing is certain as far as the Zeta sedan beyond Chevrolet at this point. The original idea apparently was that Buick & Pontiac wre to get the Zeta shared with Holden, while Chevrolet was to get this cheaper version with struts up front instead of SLA. Seems GM instead will be moving everything but Cadillac to the Chevy version of Zeta, making the upcoming VZ based Holden Zeta a car that's likely to be short lived. The change has left Pontiac flatfooted, and Buick with 2 models replacing 4 (instead of 3), and still no convertible coupe. Pontiac seems to be rushing a design based on Chevy's through, and may actually be out the same time as Chevy's. Lastly, it seems Holden may be scheduled to export a VE Statesman or Caprice as a Buick. Final decision on this hasn't been made yet, but it's on the table.

Don't put alot of faith in MT's future cars section. No car mag gets it right all the time (a few months ago, Automobile magazine said the Camaro was dead but that GTO was very much alive), but the average person who follows this or other sites devoted to future vehicles knows more than the guy(s) running MT's "future" section.

FBI isn't involved. There isn't going to be a "push car" at LA. The pictures weren't released to a toy company.

That is so funny...... and so true! :lol: Good points all around.

I haven't read through the entire 7 pages, and I'm not patient enough tonight to rebut each and every point Buickman makes in these pages, and I don't need to since Evok is holding his own. But I WILL point out that Buickman has a personal vendetta against Rick Wagoner. His rants, repetitive insults, and the silly anti-Wagoner rhetoric that pops up almost daily on his newsletters (which prompted me to remove myself from his mailing lists after awhile) is simply ridiculous. I don't work for GM, I'm not on GM's payroll, and I have a reputation for taking any maker to task (especially GM) when I feel they are doing something stupid or at least questionable. However, GM knows what it's problem is, Wagnoer knows what the problem is, and I'm convinced they are well underway to fixing it. 1st of all, it typically takes 5 years for a new car to work through the development system. Most all new cars arriving in showrooms today were started in 2000. GM CEO at the time was Ron Zarella. This is the guy who said in an interview after he was demoted and returned to Boush & Loumb (he had no experience in the car industry, mind you) that his biggest regret was not putting even more resources into trucks and SUVs. This is despite the fact he cancelled Holden based RWD Buicks, the 5th gen F-body, and alot of money that would typically be used to update existing cars! Wagoner took over in 2001, brought in Lutz and additional talent in 2002 & 2003 (including Brian Nesbitt from Chrysler, who went to Chevrolet & is now heading GM Europe design). He has been putting the best people in the right spots (like Ed Welburn who replaced Wayne Cherry at design), and created a chairmainship level world product position and moved Bob Lutz into it. GM is eliminating overlap. The Solstice was more of a tool to find ways to streamline development than to create a new entry (plus, it's ALOT cheaper than advertising (it cost about the same as 1 month's advertising for Pontiac). Wagoner, with a background in finance, is doing the opposite of what GM did when it was in trouble in the early 90s. It's cutting to invest MORE into product development (GM in the early 90s cut product to shore up finance, and was stuck with old cars that melted any perception that might have existed of GM cars being new or up to date). Cars that were developed completely under Wagoner start poping up next year, and because of streamlining that's gone on at GM over the past few years, the 1st "no excuse" cars will show up in 2007, just as Evok said. Buickman should know this, but for some reason he ignores these facts. Instead, you are beaten to death about how Wagoner (even back to 1990, if you want to believe that) has been destroying GM piece by piece. All the other GM CEOs had nothing to do with anything bad, but now that Wagoner is CEO, he's even more at fault? Buickman has actually come out and said on another site (and likely this one as well) that "Product is NOT the problem". To hear him tell it, GM is wasting billions of dollars developing new cars instead of using HIS plan which not only would cost GM nothing, but would magically fix ALL GM's problems. All he asks for is "fair" compensation. Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, a magicial, a nuclear engineer or even a room tempreature IQ to see what's going on here. He even on a early page of this thread comes out and says it! The guy went to GM to sell his plan as the best thing since bretheable oxygen and Rick Wagoner blew him off, and instead of compromising he's retaliating! Being the lifelong salesman he is, Buickman honestly believes in what he's selling and that he can sell anything to anybody. The issue is never WHAT you are selling, if it's right for what's needed, or the other person's point of view or shortcomings people see... because it's all about the "sale". Like alot of people here, I saw alot of merit in his plans. I wrote and told him that some of his ideas are good. Tt's no where near something that's going to "SAVE" GM, but it's something that combined with GM's upcoming new products, could improve the buying experience and salespeople's knowledge and enthusiasm for the brands they are selling. Other people offered input. However, instead of a constructive give and take, there was a constant stream of anti-Wagoner nonsense and a constant stream of "My plan is the ONLY way GM is going to recover". Finally, those who supported him over at CZ28 started getting sick of him, and turned against him. Even people who DIDN'T like Wagoner started feeling sorry for him because of Buickman's constant barrage. It got so bad that if someone posted a story about a Hummer running over a speedbump, it was morphed into a "It's Wagoner's fault because GM's been bleeding red ink for 15 years"[i] tirade (I recall GM having some pretty fat years along the way, too). Want to disagree with him? You're blind. You're a GM fool. You've been brainwashed. Hell, he even called Evok "[i]closed minded" of all things! He managed to finally get himself banished from CZ28.com's, not a easy feat since I can name only 6 people who succeded in doing that over the past 4 years out of the 100 or so who post on the future vehicles community. Bottom line is this. Rick Wagoner inherited a sh*tstorm. There was very little money for cars, and the people the board brought in to run GM in the 90s all came from Proctor & Gamble, and other industries that were heavy in marketing and the bottom line, and light on product. What you got was spending on high profit vehicles (like Cadillac, trucks, and SUVs) and very little on cars (the "W" chassis would have been replaced years ago). Things are starting to happen now, and Wagoner is making all the cuts needed to finance this. He's also put his neck on the line by assuming responsibility for GM-North America, effectively eliminating the ability for "gatekeepers" & "the finance guys" to thwart new product & quality. A company as big and bureacratic as GM, where the Board of Directors and the Product Planning Comittee holds far more power than any one individual isn't going to change in 1, 2, or even 4 years. Quality vehicles are the key at least as much as the sales side. Proof? Saturn has the best sales experience of any carmaker, foreign or domestic. Honda and Toyota tend to have the worse. Which one is in the crapper in sales and which 2 are doing extremely well? Thanks for reading.

Of course there is! Monte Carlo is a big car. Camaro isn't. Monte Carlo is a personal car. Camaro is a sports coupe. Chevrolet is making a large sedan. A coupe version of that large sedan would be very little to produce and, like the current FWD Monte, would still be profitable in small numbers due to being essentially the same thing as the sedan. The Camaro coupe needs to have volume (since it's essentially a unique chassis... a modified version of the big RWD) or it's dead. Monte Carlo sales have been far more steady than other sporty coupes, at around 5K per month average since the begining of the 90s, although the coupe market imploded around '98 (save the Mustang) and never really rebounded. In short, it's easier, cheaper, and a better business case to make a RWD Monte Carlo than a Camaro.... yet GM is making a Camaro. Should tell you that a big RWD coupe is also coming. ;)

You can tell a good design when it polarizes people. If people are strongly divided on a vehicle's design, then you have a great design. Seems Dodge has a winner here. Alot of you talk about retro as if it's a bad thing. All I can say is I'm glad you aren't running any company that I'd own. The only thing that matters is what the general public wants. If the public didn't want retro, there wouldn't be and "retro" designs. The PT Cruiser is still selling at numbers that defy sales curves. So is the Mini. Retro is just like any other design. If it's done well, and there is something behind the looks that make it worthwhile, it's going to continue to do well. If there isn't, then regardless as to it's design, it's going to taper off. Thunderbird never got any serious juice (despite many concepts that did) and the Beetle doesn't have the utility of a Focus. As far as the gripe about not being able to "restyle" a retro design, I suppose you think we simply leapfroged into modern design. There is always ways to create a new design. Shapes, character lines, changes in grilles and lighting designs. To say a "retro" design can't be restyled (while asserting a modern one can) is pretty narrow minded. The average age of Camaro buyers was around 42. Ditto Mustang GT buyers. Mustang Cobra buyers were near 50. If Challenger is going to aim itself at "muscle car-like" performance, this is the age group that has the money and the low insurance rates to buy thes cars. These cars are not aimed at young drivers (I'm talking new...off the showroom floor). The design is influenced by this. That's why the new Mustang is a much bigger hit than Ford expected... people get paid to study this stuff. As for my own view of the new Challenger (expect it in 2007 as a 2008 model), I really like it overall. I'm not fond of the quad headlights, but I think the rear design is fantastic. I think the "C" pillars are a bit too thick, but the "SRT" rims fill the wheelwells very nicely. I like the Mustang & GTO's greenhouse better, but overall I think Dodge has a hit.

Dynasties?! When was the last time you were in Frisco? 1990?? There are quite a few 300C taxis running around, but it's not an exclusive model. DeSoto seems to be running a little bit of everything. The 300 is by no means the only intresting taxi you'll see up there. There are a few "British" cabs, probally half a dozen each Toyota Camaries, Impalas,& Chrysler minivans. Of course, the work horse is the Crown Victoria. If you go to Vegas, they also have 300C taxis rolling around. Sorry, I haven't seen a Charger taxi yet.

Fusion. My gaffe. :lol: I don't see anyone else (U.S. auto makers) even attempting to compete with Aveo's position in the marketplace because the profit margin would be non-existant unless it was made in Korea or China. At $12,000 list price there's no way on earth you could make any type of profit otherwise, and the market for a car at this price is extremely thin. If GM didn't have Daewoo, Aveo wouldn't exist. Think about this. Chevrolet sells about 70,000 Aveos per year, but sells 220,000 Cobalts. Ford sells about 200,000 Focus. GM barely makes money on the Aveo, but makes a pretty penny on the Cobalt as Chrysler does on the PT over the Neon. It's all about getting the most money from their resources, especially now. GM just happened to have bailed Daewoo out, and they are getting some use form them. Ford & Chrysler have no presence in Korea, so it isn't worth the money to try to compete there, and they aren't. On the other hand, next decade when it becomes somewhat acceptible to import Chinese cars over here, all bets are off since both Ford and Daimler will have operations there.

Zeta is just a name... or better yet, a process. Zeta is more the ability to build a variety of RWD models off of a set of components, than it is a particular car line. Holden's Zeta is based off the VE, ours will be based off the Sigma. Suspension will be pretty much common to both (ours and Holden's).... remember, it's ALL being done by Holden. It's cheaper to modify our Sigma for these "lower cost" components than it is to create all new engineering to produce VE structrual parts here. Besides, the Sigma structure is "newer". The VE based Zeta is likely going to be shortlived. As Holden comes into GM-North America's "system", it's likely thier "Zeta" will be replaced with ours. Hope that clears things up. ;)

It's going to be a sedan that's going to fit between the Futura and the Focus. Essentially, Ford's "Cobalt". Due by "decade's end". To me that sounds suspiciously like it's being timed with a redone or replaced Focus.

Everyone in the US is getting out of the entry level market. Chevrolet imported the Korean Aveo, just so the Cobalt could be moved upmarket from where Cavalier was. Ford's also working on a car that's going to be above the Focus, which will probally be discontinued by decade's end, or imported from someplace else. The costs of production here in the US makes any entry level car below say $17K a money losing proposition. Also, nobody is really buying strippers anymore. PTs outsold same chassis Neons for example. As for Chrysler swimming upstream, consider these: Dodge Ram is setting sales records right now (even at $3 per gallon gas). Jeep Grand Cherokee, also is a massive hit. The ugly (IMHO) Durango... again, blazing the charts. The PT Cruiser is still selling at about a steady 90K per year rate. Magnum is the best selling vehicle of it's type (what we used to call station wagons). Pacifica is also selling well above plans. Chrysler's Minivan line still dominates the market in this vehicle class. Chrysler Sebring is America's best selling convertible (at least till the 1st 12 month tallies of the new Mustang's comes in at the end of April). The Charger has a stronger sales start than the 300 did, and has been stead ever since. The 300 isn't the only thing doing well at Chrysler. And there are 2 cars coming that you probally aren't aware of that is likely to do very well also. :)

1. Canada and Mexico are domestic (North America). 2. Canada does have a labor advantage as far as health care costs. 3. CAFE is unaffected if Camaro is made in Canada, the US, or Mexico. National Health Care is strongly supported by manufacturers, business, and unions (odd combination, huh?) because it moves health care off their backs to the government, and frees up money to compete. Health care organizations oppose it because cheaper health care means the savings has to come out of someone's pocket... theirs or those who depend on them.

And the world is flat because I've never seen it from space, and the sun revolves around the earth, and the moon landing was fake. There's this thing called "Probable Cause". There's enough probale cause here to drown you. This is November 7th. How many times have you heard any automaker giving advanced "official" or "definitive" proof of a car they are going to unveil at an auto show? Especially this far in advance! Saturn Sky and Aura were complete surprises. So was the Shelby Cobra. Buick Velite was as well. Every single car that comes out at an autoshow that isn't production immenent isn't going to have advance press or official statements. Even if you don't believe me and the souces I have, Fbodfather is about as far inside "Camaro" as you can get without being a structral stamping of the thing. He has all but written things in blood. My God, man! He and GM has combed Camaro enthusiast websites to pick 250 people to travel to Detroit for a "special presentation". Z28.com, a site that has been oversensitive to any mention of any rwd Chevrolet coupe has had it on their front page for weeks. There's plenty of other things that indicates a Camaro in the works. Let's play a game. Let's see who'd put money against a Camaro being unveiled. :lol:

I am completely flabbergasted by some of the things I've read here. Just dumbfounded. It seems there are people hellbent on making sure the next Camaro ends up deader than a doornail..... PERMANENTLY! Camaro ISN'T a niche vehicle. Never was, and never will be. There are some people who just simply go off the deep end, and think Camaro is some musclebound street terror. Hate to bust your bubble, but that's not quite what it is... is alot more. Though it's probally enough to make some of you guys go into cardiac arrest with denial, Camaro came about because of Mustang. Camaro has always been an alternative to Mustang. That means Camaro matches Mustang model for model... including V6s. There is zero to gain turning Camaro into a "niche" car. Anyone who thinks a $30K V8 Camaro is enough to keep it going, simply doesn't understand the business, or doesn't want to. Niche vehicles are throwaway vehicles. It's a low cost, limited run vehicle whose development and production costs are cheaper than an advertizing campaign. The company typically expects to lose money on a niche vehicle. However, a nich vehicle has to be so far removed from the norm in the showroom that it in itself attracts traffic. Look at the Pontiac Solstice, Plymouth Prowler, Ford GT, or even the original Dodge Viper. Halo vehicles serve the same purpose, but serve as something an entire car division centers around, ot is the top model in the showroom. Corvette is a halo car. So is Viper, GTO, and years ago, Thunderbird. Camaro doesn't fit into any of these catagories. Camaro, like Mustang is a historic name. It's a sporty, great looking car that anyone from secretaries... excuse me, "executive assistants".... to pilots, to teachers, to weekend racers buy and enjoy. I had a loaded '97 Z28, now I have a '02 B4C. I remember the owner and webmaster of GMI owned a 4th gen loaded V6 Camaro RS. My sister owns a V6 Camaro 5 speed that looks meaner than my car. A guy where I used to work at had a '02 V6 stick as his daily driver (and also owned a pretty impressive '72 Z28). Nearly 60% of all Mustang sales are V6. Of that, about 55% are to men. The base Mustang price of $19K brings attention and massive numbers of buyers. They sit down and often sign up for $5Kor more in options. In short: they make as much or more money selling V6s than V8s! V6s also serve as bridges, bringing in business for the V8 models (a well equpted V6 costs nearly as much as a GT). A V8 only (or niche) Camaro will doom the car. It will restrict it's appeal, limit it's market, cut it's profit potential by a minimum of 50% hurt corperate CAFE numbers, hurt it's image as an affordable sporty car, and will represent Camaro leaving it's heritage & history to appeal to a group of buyers who would have bought the car anyways. Not smart, and not an idea that makes alot of sense. To top it all off, Chevrolet already has a "halo" car..... the Corvette. Camaro will have a standard V6. It will sell alot of 'em. Get over it. :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

They seem pretty certain about that 18 month from approval timeframe. They point to this time last year being the decision point for 2008MY cars, so it seems they think it can be done quicker. They also seem pretty certain about that 2009MY. nzr, that schedule is obsolete. The entire "zeta" line is delayed for a minimum of 1 1/2 years, so Grand Prix and GTO scheduled are toast. XTS has been moved back again, and doesn't seem likely to happen, at least before 2010MY. blackviper8891, not 761.

Yahoos, huh? :angry:

Change of plans. Velite won't be on Zeta.