oldshurst442

Should electric vehicles follow the styling elements of internal combustion engined vehicles? In an EV, there is no huge block of iron (or aluminium) to HAVE to be accounted for in the first third of the vehicle and then to stylize and prepare for the cabin. I mean, designers and engineers, cant they have carte blanche to design an EV with a brand new way of thinking and engineering? Do they need to be shackled by old engineering and design standards? When the automobile was first concieved and the body of the vehicle that housed the passengers was directly lifted by the horse and buggy carriages. It took a couple of decades to get off of that idiotic way of engineering the 'horseless carriage'. I think, today's engineers and designers are smarter, wiser, keener than our forefathers when they done the first automobiles... I also think its wiser to design and engineer EVs like they are their own entity. Because they are... Stylistically. There is nothing wrong with it. And if EVs start plopping out looking like that, inherently, there is nothing wrong with that either. Smartly, they would be engineered this way to look exactly like that... I presume, inherently, because of the lack of a huge iron or aluminium block up front, lends itself for there to be more cabin space for the passengers... Something that was thought of 20 some odd years ago...I might add. From General Motors as it were... Those Italian car pictures mimicking the HYWIRE pictures...

1. We wont know the Ultium platform Bolt's msrp until it comes out. Whenever that will be. Nothing has been announced . At least Im not informed of anything. 2. The Equinox EV's starting msrp is said to be around $30 000. 3. But...GM is pulling an Elon Musk move and will not sell that 30 000 dollar version tout de suite. GM will sell the higher trimmed versions first. Not a bad move per se... But shytty none. the. less. 4. I have a sneaky suspicion that GM will further copycat Elon Musk and wont offer a 30 000 dollar Equinox EV. And this is where a 30 000 dollar Ultium Bolt comes in... Its starting msrp now is $27 000. So yeah, its possible that the starting price tag for the Ultium Bolt will be 30 000. And the Equinox will be bumped up to 35 000 or maybe even 38 000... But in a world where avg US transaction prices for new cars has hit 50 000 American smack-a-roonies... The American consumer is just as much to blame for this mess as is the car makers that sell cars in North America... American and Canadian car consumers dont seem to want cheap, stripped cars... We want all option boxes ticked even in the most cheapest cars available to us to buy. Its like going to Micky Dees. We NEEEEEEEED to supersize everything. We need just about all the shytty phoquing tech in our most basic of transportational cars. Maybe with inflation being sky high as it is, maybe we could live life a little bit more humble? But nah! That will never happen as we American and Canadian consumers are spoiled phoquing little brats!!! But we sure like to whine a lot, dont we???!!! PS: Canuck rock RULES!!!

The adjustability is quite understanding. I got hairy arms myself. Not too hairy though. I guess that is why I prefer my watches to be loose fitting. I cant stand them being tight on my wrist. The customization that these straps lends themselves to is fantastic. Fairly inexpensive to buy several different styles and colours its like you have a different watch with each different strap. And easy to fit on. I definitely see the upsides and the popularity for them.

I am trying to figure out what Tag Heuer watch I wanted in 1996. The same year I opened up the restaurant. It would have been my gift for a succesfull opening. I cant for the life of me remember what it was. It was two tone. Silver and Gold and had a white face. Its was kinda like a chrono. I cant find it. It was something like this. It was more silver than gold. The gold accents, like the watch above, were just that, accents. Except the face was white. Or it could have been silver. And yes, the band had that gold accent in the middle as well. This one is a Professional 2000 200 meters. It looks to be that model going by memory. This one is too gold-y Swap the bezels in which the bezel is silver and the gold is just an accent and it would appear to be the Tag I saw and wanted at a Downtown Montreal jewelery front store. Dont remember what jewelery store it was either...

I dont want to discuss the reasons of me selling. Too painful, still. My ex-partner is no longer with us. By choice... Im on vacation. I took about a month off. Ive got another couple of weeks. I got another job lined up. It wont be paying me as much...obviously. Its still income. I dont want to discuss where just yet as the job aint secure yet. Ive got to prove my worth... Its in management. So its a decent paying job. I wont get my hands dirty anymore. More slowpaced. Im still a boss. But not THE boss. My wife also has gone back to work. She started today. We have to compensate in the income. (cash flow). She, the last 3 years, she wasnt totally a stay at home wife. She needed and wanted to get out of the house. She has a bachelor's degree in finance and in special education. Before we met, she was quite the intelligent young lady. I made her drop of few IQ points. LOL. Anyway, 3-4 years ago, she started working at a primary school nearby our home helping out teachers with special needs children. A few hours a day. Well, with the advent of me selling the restaurant so fast, she asked if she could have a more fulltime position and the school agreed. She is very much needed. Actually, they kept on asking her for more availability...

As cars get faster, and as transmissions get more gears in them and as electric motors have an almost endless amounts of RPMs and almost no need for transmissions...the 1/4 mile speed metric does seem to be too short of a distance metric. Automobiles today seem to have more pull after the 1/4 mile mark than ever before. During the musclecar era ('60s)...doing the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds @ 95 or 100 MPH was fast. 20 years before that time, cars werent even able to do 100MPH let alone to do it in a racing fashion to determine performance domination. 0-60 was a good metric. That metric today is not as relevent. Passing times in a specific speed range is much more indicative of what a fast car can do today. 1/4 mile times are becoming what 0-60 became 10-15 years ago. Also. liek @ccap41 stated, tire ratings seem to be the obstacle. Limiting speed is important though as tires are not engineered to be going that fast in heavy heavy EV vehicles like that. Especially Raptor like trucks that are buiklt for offroading and the tires offered are of the offraoding kind. Yeah I know. The Raptor aint an EV. OK...substitute Raptor for GMC Hummer then.

Like how @ccap41 said. Not weird at all. Im not a huge jewelery guy. Just a watch, wedding ring and my dad's pinky ring is what Ill wear. His pinky ring has his initials on it and his initials are my intitials as well. But Ill wear that only on special occasions. So for me, Im the opposite of you. But I love wearing watches. I had ALWAYS worn watches. Except when working. In the restaurant biz, no jewelery allowed. That means I have never worn my wedding ring. Only on special occasions. OK...going to the grocery store sometimes Id wear it. I recently found out though, since I dont have the restaurant anymore, that my wedding ring does not fit my finger... Watches however, if Im going out anywhere, Im going to put on a watch. Im wearing shorts and a t-shirt on a short jaunt somewheres, Im putting on a watch. Im going to a wedding, Im wearing a watch. another beautiful watch. Im feeling jealousy... When I opened up my restaurant in the mid to late '90s, I was at a cross roads. I wanted to start a collection. It was between a watch collection or scale 1/18 die cast automobiles. The cars won. And its a good thing. Diecast cars are less expensive. And because watches are smaller, I would be able to buy more because watches dont require as much display realestate so potentially, I could have bankrupted myself buying all kinds of watches... Id probably start with Tags. Since that brand was the one to own back then and especially with my entourage and all the people I was hanging around with mingling.

Answer: However: Not proof...but there maybe an elephant in the room that nobody may want to discuss fully...because of this push ton all EVs... Its a long article. I copy/pasted a good chunk of it. The article concludes that there simply isnt enough data to conclude anything. There simply isnt enough EVs on the road to suggest safer or more dangerous in fire hazard than ICE. HOWEVER...thermal events will occur more frequent as EVs become more abundant on the roads. The article states that EVs and lithium batteries ARE safe...BUT...fires will occur at a more frequent rate as EVs are bought more and more. So...let us NOT say with a rapid response that ICE cars are more prone for fire than EVs. EVs are just as inherent to be a fire hazard as gasoline powered cars. BOTH are flammable. And engineers NEED to be more vigilant to make sure that lithium battery cells arent as fickle as they are now and start combustin'. PS: ITS NOT FUD TO QUESTION IT!!! TO QUESTION THE FIRE HAZARDRY OF EVs. WHEN A FREAKIN' HUGE BOAT SANK BECAUSE OF A FIRE THAT STARTED FROM A LITHIUM BATTERY POWERED CAR WITH WHAT IT SEEMS TO BE A SPONTANEOUS FIRE. IF FICKLE STARTS A FIRE...IM NOT SO SURE IF A SIDE IMPACT TO AN EV IS THAT SAFE...IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN... https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2022/03/02/electric-car-fire-risks-look-exaggerated-but-more-data-required-for-definitive-verdict/?sh=4494af312327 The fire risk from electric cars appears to be less than for conventional vehicles, although Americans awaiting their new Volkswagens to be delivered from Europe could be forgiven for doubting that as their new cars were destroyed, apparently by a spontaneous lithium-ion battery fire on the Felicity Ace car transporter ship. The ship sank Tuesday. Any firm conclusions on fire risks generally are not yet possible because there is not enough data to decide that pure electric cars are more prone to spontaneous fire than internal combustion engine (ICE) ones, or more likely to burst into flames after an accident a report in Britain’s Daily Mail quoted the Felicity Ace’s captain Joao Mendes Cabecas saying lithium-ion batteries in the electric cars on board caught fire. VW warned against a rush to judgement. “At this time, any comments on the cause are speculative and of course will be subject to investigation,” VW said. As the battery electric vehicle (BEV) revolution gathers pace, spontaneous fires, or electric car fires after accidents, have attracted media attention. If you see a picture or video of a pricey TeslaTSLA +0.4% engulfed in a spectacular fire it’s easy to make the lazy assumption that this is somehow a problem with all electric cars. After all, a bog-standard internal combustion engine (ICE) car on fire would probably not be in the headlines. Graham Conway, principal engineer at the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, Texas, said there’s not enough information to decide if EVs are more prone to spontaneous fire than ICE ones. “It is still too early to make any conclusions about EVs and spontaneity of fires. I just don’t think we have the sample size of data or the reporting structure for fires to say with any certainty. What is clear is that the fire is more difficult to deal with, the energy release during the exotherm of the electrolyte takes a lot of cooling to extinguish,” Conway said Conway said the data didn’t allow for solid conclusions. “The NTSB data said that after 41 fatal collisions involving BEVs, 1 caught on fire (2.44%). The NTSB data said that after 20,315 fatal collisions involving gasoline vehicles, 644 caught on fire (3.17%). The NTSB data said that after 543 fatal collisions involving gasoline hybrid vehicles, 12 caught on fire (2.21%),” Conway said. “But 41 crashes vs 20,315 crashes vs 543 crashes make it statistically irresponsible to compare these numbers. For example, if there was a 42nd crash with an EV and it caught on fire then it would be 4.76% of EVs or double the rate of hybrids. Until the sample size is the same and significant we just can’t say which will be worse or not,” Conway said. Richard Billyeald, chief technical officer at Britain’s Thatcham Research, said EVs generally appear less likely fire risks, but the data is limited. “Our latest research indicates that the risk of a fire for all types of EV remains less likely than for ICE vehicles. It should be noted that the usable data only goes back five years and even now the number of EVs on the roads still represents a very small sample size. This is also reflected in the safety testing we conduct in the U.K. on behalf of Euro NCAP (European auto safety), where despite the robust impacts to the front and particularly the sides of the vehicle where the battery is most vulnerable, there have been no resultant thermal events,” Billyeald said. “I believe the likelihood of a vehicle’s battery failing is becoming ever more less likely. However the number of EVs on the road is increasing possibly at a higher rate so I believe thermal events for the foreseeable future are still likely,” Petschenyk said. In a frontal crash an EV is unlikely to cause thermal runaway. “Side impact or underside puncture I believe may pose a greater risk to EVs than ICE, anything that can cause cell damage or to short, but again assuming the battery has adequate fail safes, thermal runaway risk is minimized. There have been situations where EVs can ignite some time after an incident, this is typically due to coolant leaking into the battery and again causing cells to short, but similarly the risk of this happening is ever diminishing as technology and fail safes improve,” Petschenyk said.

You are not wrong about anything you said. However, because of FUD and mis/dis-information regarding range anxiety and all that nonsense with the biased anti-EV rhetoric, I understand why many (all) brands want to showcase range and sell their EVs with unnecessary amount of battery in their EVs. And let us not forget, this is a flagship EV for Cadillac. Sure, the Celestiq is the PRIMARY flagship, but the Escalade IQ is as well. Its a showcase for the big and badass SUV class. And its separate from the GMC Hummer. Ill repeat, and its kinda like how you put it. But not with less battery. Its with a breakthrough with lighter materials to counter with the unnecessary amount of battery. A breakthrough of new engineering techniques with new ways of packaging things that use less materials in the packaging. Also, the use of stronger yet lighter materials but a way to manufacture these lighter but stronger materials in a profitable way for mass production use. Example: Aluminium usage in mass production was prohibitive in the 1980s and expensive in the 1990s but in the 2000s it became feasible and today its almost a go-to metal for mass produced vehicles. Example: Find a way to mass produce carbonfibre cheaply and there you go. These kinds of breakthroughs are necessary and imagine the first automobile manufacturer to find a way to do these things feasibly, imagine the bragging rights???!!!

Yes... Admittedly, some shyte in my post is overdramatic. Not without some merit though. There are battery cut-off switches...yada yada yada. The juice to which the accelerator pedal is pressed is not out of control and maniacal... But the weight problem when North America will eventually switch to and when EVs will outnumber ICE, WILL be a problem and nobody wants to address it. And like how you said, light weigh, whether in ICE or EV, WILL improve efficiency. And the cycle is thus: Less weight -->greater effeciency -->better range -->longer range --> less KW/H battery needed --> cheaper EV.

Mug Shot Moe: 6'3" 215 lbs Oldshurst: " 215???!!! Yeah! In your bra!" Mug Shot Moe: "I OBJECT!" Oldshurst: "You would! BASTARD!!! HAG!!! AND....LIAR!!!"

Oldshurst: saying this under my breath in hush hush style in amazement, shock and with a twinkle in my eye "30 thousand big ones???!!!" Oldshurst to Robert: "Hey...come here!!!" Robert: Looking at my direction with a hand gesture of the index finger pointing at himself Oldshurst: "Yeah you! COME HERE!!!! "You look like an intelligent young man!!! I've got a proposition for you. A once in a lifetime business offer!!!"

Fast has nothing to do with it. EVs are fast. That is great. And... 80 000 lbs trailers do enough damage to Quebec streets and hiughways. But remember, Tesla Model X and Cadillac Lyriq both weigh just under 6000 lbs. Mustang Mach-E and Blazer EV weigh around 5000 lbs. All four combined weigh about a quarter of that 80 000 lbs trailer. But there are going to be many many many more of those EV SUVs on our roads than any 18 wheeler. And... 18 wheelers dont park in indoor parking lots or high rise ones. Those poor entry and exit ways... And I feel sorry for anybody that will be near those when they eventually fail. Or the cost to rebuild those. Before and/or ESPECIALLY AFTER failure. You know, downtown underground parking buidling lots or hospital parking lots, airports. Let us not forget the little bridges in and out of big cities, small towns, rural areas... Small streets.... Weight is one of the problems for potholes. In the snowbelt states and provinces at least. Now that everyday vehicles will be at LEAST 50% heavier than their ICE counterparts, we should expect 50% faster timeline wear and tear on our roads. Lets go to the fast argument again though. What carnage will it be when two 5000-6000 lbs SUVs are going to collide? Let alone a Cadillac Escalade @ 8500 lbs. UNLIKE the Hummer, the Escalade WILL be in abundance on our roads. Plus batteries have a slightly edge as a fire hazard than gasoline does in an accident... And not that easy to put out. Let us not NOT calculate the fire damage on the roads and surroundings when battery fire starts... Its not FUD what Im saying. Its a legit concern. But why the fast argument angle. Most folk cant control a measly 180HP 4 cylinder that accelerates to 60 in and around 8 seconds. In ANY EV, 0-60 is done at sports car levels. They attain illegal speed limits in a blink of an eye. And controlling said speed with all that heft is challenging with the pros let alone moronic first worlders...

Mega bloated is such an understatement. You were not wrong. 8500 lbs. A shame. Its nice as a Cadillac and an Escalade. Worthy of both titles as the interior looks to be as rich and tight with quality worthy of a REAL Cadillac when America was great... (sarcastic jab on that wonderful The Good, the Bad and the Ugly mug shot and the EV haterz) A shame that automakers are not innovating fast enough, (not battery tech), lighter cheaper materials to counter the heavy battery weight. @smk4565 You are absolutley right When talking about this... But... Its a Cadillac in a realm of high end cars. Battery range HAS to be on the upper side of the echelon for bragging rights. More battery than necessary but that means weight and lots of it. What would be MOST imppressive and compelling IF General Motors or Mercedes or Rolls Royce or Bentley actually boast about how NOT heavy their luxo barges are. ALL like to keep the EV weight numbers on the hush hush... What a shame that we all know, politicians know, automotive execs know, engineers know, that EVs are super heavy but NOBODY wants to do ANYTHING about that. Including anti-EV folk. Anti-EV folk still banter on stupid range anxiety fears and false emissions claims that EV are somehow dirtier than ICE. What they SHOULD be bitchin' about is the weight problem. And how our existing infrastructure will be decimated very quickly if the weight problem is not addressed. PS: Lee Van Cleef. ole Angel eyes, dies in the movie... Keep our fingers crossed that the same fate might happen to the fat dude on trial.

@ccap41 ABSOLUTELY about everything you said with your last post! And how could I forget about Tag???!!! Hey!!! We could discuss Tag anytime we want, right???!!! That is a very nice Seiko you got. (Please dont hate me for saying this though) That is the type of strap that I (personally) do not like. I would prefer a metal band for it. I am NOT a watch snob so I do not say that with malice or ill intentions. Watch wearing is such a personal thing and if that is what you like...GREAT!!! I just felt the need to say that a strap like that does not work for me. And I only recently got into leather straps. In fact, when my wife bough me the black faced Bulova 3-4 years ago, I soooooo wanted to change the strap. (to a metal one). I still do because its a very cheap Bulova strap. But now Im thinking I want a nicer, better looking black leather strap for it. My dad's Waltham was an old fashioned band like this Very similar. But not as gold-y and matched the colour of the case itself. I dont have it anymore. I lost it with time. Probably in a box somewhere in the house. But when I fixed it, I wanted a metal band but the love of a leather strap had already begun and went with that instead. Ill say it again. Between all the watches that @Drew Dowdell, @David you and I posted of our personal watches, I like YOURS the best!!! Including those of MY collection!

Yeah!!! You are right about that. I dont know why I put Omega in the mid tier. I guess I was thinking Seiko when I wrote it and ommitted Omega with the high end. But yeah. Guilty as charged and correction accepted. I also wanted to include Tudor and Breitling with the high end stuff but I guess when all those brands were swirling in my mind, I got mixed up with all that info because I had a LOT more to say. Tongue tied and brain fart we will chalk that up to.

I like all kinds of watches. Pedigree is somewhat important, but not a factor. I DO want a watch from a legit watchmaker, not from these so called fashion watch corps such as Armani, Diesel, Guess, Hugo Boss, Gucci, Michael Kors... GaaAWD DO I HATE MICHAEL KOR WATCHES!!! I like simplistic watches. I like complicated watches with all kinds of complications on the dial. I wouldnt wear a too busy one, but I like 'em none the less. I like cheap legit watches like a Casio or Timex or even Swatch but nothing that you buy from a Walmart/Target/Dollar Store turn-a-rack display and the watch is made in China/Taiwan. I prefer the mid-level watches like an Omega, Seiko, Bulova, Citizen, Longines, Tissot... I like the horology engineering in the very high end watches like a Rolex, Piguet, IWC, A. Lange and Sohne, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Panerai, etc Noting that several brands have been bought by other brands and are part of a bigger umbrella now-a-days. I like military face style watches like a Hamilton. I like the naked face look. I like the really wierd styled high end stuff too. I like automatics and I like quartzes. I like digital. I even like smart watches although Id NEVER consider buying one. I like round and I like square and rectangle. Leather straps or metal. Gold too. But not plastic nor tissue. I like classic styled watches like the Longines watches classic original and reissue I posted in the car thread. I like a gaudy diamond encrusted 18k Gold Rolex Presidential. Id wear one too if I was a Russian Oligarch kissin' Putin's ass... Or a Wallstreet weenie boy bilking billions from like minded @$$h8le$... Or If I was a New York Yankee or Dallas Cowboys owner. Same style of shytty arrogance. Did I just paint the Steinbrenners and the Joneses like murderous, cantakerous theives? I guess I did... These are my personal watches. The far right one was my dad's. Its a Waltham. I have no information on it. I tried fixing it last year. Cost me 200 CDN bucks. Stopped working again 3 months later. I guess its too old. But I LOVE it. Its a 21 jewel self winding automatic. The other 2 are Bulova Quartzes. The one of the left is solar. Its titanium and its a 36mm I think. Cost me around 500 CDN at the time. The one in the middle is 40mm but not that expensive. My wife bought for me as a XMAs gift and it was on sale for 160 CDN. I would want to upgrade to the reissue of a Bulova Jetstar. I really really like Bulova's Precisionist mouvement. Its a less expensive Grand Seiko style quartz movement and even more precise. I like an automatic for its horology engineering, and I LOVE the sweeping second hand. But I love a battery powered watch in that I dont have to wind it up... I had LOTS of hand wounding watches as a kid. When I got my hands on a quartz watch in the 80s, and I had several digital ones at that as well, I never looked back. Kinda like a manual transmission versus an automatic one. I dont like a manual transmission either... Roughly $500 versus $5000. But yeah...the Grand Seiko is classy and awesome non-the less. This GS is simply gorgeous!

Its Dee-troy-it afterall. From their famous potholes and the crimes

It takes two to tango in the sense that automakers should also put effort in making autoshows work again. Maybe not in the same way that GM's Motorama once was and autoshows took that formula for the next 50/60 or so years. The pandemic accelerated the direction of car reveals, as how you stated in your timeline, in that internet reveals became that biiiiig event. The reveal of the Corvette C8 countdown comes to mind. And if my memory serves me right, Dodge revealed the Hellcats streaming it on the webs and it wasnt the traditional autoshow reveal. Another nail in that autoshow coffin, was how Acura was strongly awaiting for its NSX reveal and Ford comes along and literally blowing Acura and everybody away with their GT reveal negating any attention to Acura and the NSX. Sure it was great for Ford, but because there was another media way to showcase a surprise or long awaited reveal, automakers now had a very safe a nd legit way to monopolize ALL the attention: Live streamed internet reveals. I agree, journalists and fans MUST attend big car shows like Detroit, LA, Geneva etc. in order for them to continue, but the Genie has been let out of the internet streaming bottle. I am looking forward to your findings and journalism surrounding the show, I have to admit.

This one belongs in here...

You and I both!!! Oh...BTW

Yes I am. But... although not as huge muscled as you, I did do weights back in the day. I still got my chest and leg muscles in full force. My calves are still well defined. Ive lost my quads definition but all the leg muscles are still rock hard. My biceps and triceps need work. I barely got my V around the shoulders where the biceps and tricpes begin. If I flex, the V and triceps are visible. Barely. But they are there. *SIGH* the bicep and tricep muscles are pathetically dormant though. Never had abs. I had a flat stomach then, not so much now, but at least Ive lost weight and the stomach is kinda flat again. Too much work to have abs so I never concentrated on them. Playing sports I figured, abs are not important. I trained for strength and speed. Not for bulk and definition. But I have small wrists. I have a small to medium body frame. Im only 5 foot 6 and a half to 3 quarters tall after all. (to be exact...LOL) Not quite 5'7'' but definetaly taller than shorty 5.6''

I dont want to pretend that Im a horology expert. I am not. I dibble dabble in information and history here and there. But Im passionate enough to at least talk about watches. I posted this watch. I know nothing about it. I came across it and was inspired when I was googling what kind of watch The Bandit was wearing. Its a personalized Timex. The band is an indigenous motif band. Love the band. And I had seen the movie American Made with Tom Cruise and remembered a thick leather band watch he wore in the movie. Its a Nemesis. And I know nothing about it either. So I continued googling to find other watches with thick and big bands similar to either . I didnt want to post the Timex Bandit watch because I had already posted tons of Trans Ams ad nauseum so I wanted to do something different. Although I LOVE that band and I might just post it in homage to Burt Reynolds anyway. I didnt like the Nemesis watch. I eventually came across that Citizen. LOVED it IMMEDIATELY. I thought it was the best looking of all of them.

Ah yes. The good ole days of car shows. Especially the ones from Deee-troy-it. The car of tomorrow today when the future was full of hope. Ahhhhh.... the irony. The parallels of living life then and living life today almost mirror each other. Threat of ww3 and nuclear fallout. The West against the East is in full swing. But. We actually HAVE the cars of tomorrow...today. A little glimpse of how fun cars used to be. But none of that humour is tolerated today. Agree with it or not, find it funny or offensive, ya'll got to agree, the mother-n-law ALWAYS needs to get the shaft...