surreal1272

 

 

A Lexus NX or Lincoln MKC is cheaper and a much better deal than the Envision.  And the Lexus NX is a Lexus, it has a real luxury badge on it.  And if people are shopping reliability, sadly Lexus is the best in that regard.   $45k for an Envision Premium 2?  You can get a Lexus RX for that money, and have a larger, roomier vehicle, with a V6, etc.

. There you go again. Let me tell you something about the Lexus NX. It is a Fancy Toyota RAV4. Funny how you don't say anything about that but when it involves Cadillac, it is somehow a different story.

 

 

Normally I'd agree, but the Lexus NX beat the venerable BMW X3 in MT's recent comparison.

 

It may be a fancy RAV4 but it has the substance, and the Buick being a Chinese car - I'm okay with it, but no way hell would I consider it.

 

That really isn't saying much to me as the X3 has always been unremarkable.

You also missed the bigger point of why I said it in the first place. 

Just another day in the "Thanks for screwing it up Fiat" department. Pathetic what they are doing at this point.

A Lexus NX or Lincoln MKC is cheaper and a much better deal than the Envision.  And the Lexus NX is a Lexus, it has a real luxury badge on it.  And if people are shopping reliability, sadly Lexus is the best in that regard.   $45k for an Envision Premium 2?  You can get a Lexus RX for that money, and have a larger, roomier vehicle, with a V6, etc.

After pricing out a new Jaguar F Pace on line for like 45k, I scratch my head to figure who is gonna pony up for this, especially with its already past due styling, and Chinese build.

The people who don't have Jag dealers near them...

Not the mention the people who don't want Jaguar maintenance after the warranty runs out.

it will be sold by the Vans division...

There is no other, so-called "Vans Division".

 

The nameplate you are searching for is "mercedes-benz".

That will be on the exact same dealership lots.

"Van division". LMAO!

Mercedes is larger than just the luxury products it sells.

Therefore I think it is still unfair to both Cadillac and Mercedes to compare them to each other head to head for different things.

In terms of small, really small luxury vehicles, a Alpha sub-Ats model would be much better than a CLA. And that has been denounced, even by SMK as Mercedes-Pretendz. But the C-Class is not just a bit more cash. It starts about $9000 more on the CLA. In a lease deal that will be reflected in the down payment at first, and then the payment. It is interesting though how it's kind of a simple case of a strong brand can allow you to sell the "optimized" product for the buyer.

I don't see a problem with Mercedes using a Nissan pickup truck as a base. Largely because, well, I don't particularly consider them to be much of anything of a disruptor to anyone. I don't think Mercedes even wants to make a luxo-pickup version of it. It's going to be commercial vehicle only, I think. Also, like a GMC Canyon Denali is coming out, and most people have railed on Denalis for being pure-profiteering on the part of GM, because guess what?! GMC is a strong brand.

I think it is only fair to compare both companies on products that match up well for intended mission. And in that case the XT5 matches right up on the GLE 350 without any sacrifices when configured with AWD.

Cadillac has to increase the purchase funnel diameter. And it has to increase brand awareness. Product, they need product, which they are getting. I don't think RWD is as important anymore, as long as the intended mission is not aligned to superior driving dynamics or handling or lap times.

And I will agree to disagree with the RWD vs FWD and it not being a big deal. On certain types of cars it isn't but the luxury market is not one of them for the most part.

Regarding the Nissan statement I made, I do not know how you can continue to misread what was being said here.

If you would have actually read what I said and not what you think I said, you would know that I personally don't care about their partnership with Nissan but when homer starts in with his trolling and referring to Cadillacs as "fancy Chevys" then I will return the criticism in kind.

.

 

 

I find Mercedes and Cadillac to be somewhat competitors in select markets and everywhere else completely different from another.

 

I don't particularly see a problem with the Nissan Frontier based pickup, because I don't think it'll be positioned as a luxury midsize in as much as it will just have a higher price tag because of the badge on the nose.

 

Nissan trucks have a decent reputation around the world for off-road prowess. 

 

Also, again....basing vehicles on common platforms these days works just fine for many car makers, as long as you have a decent base to word off of.

 

If the CLA had more sound-deadening, and better ride tuning it would be a much more substantial car, but perhaps less efficient. Maybe giving it active noise cancellation standard. But I think Mercedes is purely profit driven, which I think is serving them alright.

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong.

 

Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash?

 

Daimler and Nissan-Renault are joint developing the 2017 Frontier chassis, so yes it is corporate platform share product, but the Mercedes will get a Mercedes engine and transmission and interior.  This is also developed for Europe, Middle East and South America, if sold in the USA it will be sold by the Vans division and marketed as a commercial vehicle.  For a work truck I am sure the Frontier chassis will be serviceable.    They aren't selling the Mercedes pickup as a luxury or performance product, it is the pick up equivalent of the Metris, a work vehicle.  

 

Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, and Lexus, build luxury cars/crossovers of front drive platforms that are inferior to rear drive platforms that you can put more power into, longer wheelbases with better ride, better interior room, etc.  That is the difference.  These front drive products hit a performance ceiling that the rear drive product can far exceed.

 

And many people would rather have a C-class, it outsold the CLA 86,000 to 29,000 in the USA last year.  C-class racked up over 443,000 sales last year world wide.

 

Like I said, fancy Nissan. What's funny here is that you think selling it as a "work truck" is acceptably for a LUXURY auto maker while you would completely dog Cadillac if they were to do anything even remotely similar. Sorry, but I'll take a "fancy Chevy" over a fancy Nissan any day of the week.

 

Audi is weaker in the USA, probably because VW is so weak.  Audi has had slow, steady growth though over 50 consecutive months of sales gains.  15 years ago Audi was like Jaguar level volume, but not they are a player, so I think that is why they get less criticism.  Cadillac was on top of the mountain and now a 5th or 6th place brand, thus they get criticized.

 

Audi sold 1,803,250 cars last year world wide.  Hard to say they don't know how to convince people to buy them, the American market is only 10% of their total sales though.  Cadillac needs the American market, it is their #1 market.

I upvoted you on that....because its actually closer to the truth than some of us want to admit...

 

Except that while the American market is important, China will be more important in the future than America as far as Cadillac goes and that is the real truth of the matter.

I find Mercedes and Cadillac to be somewhat competitors in select markets and everywhere else completely different from another.

 

I don't particularly see a problem with the Nissan Frontier based pickup, because I don't think it'll be positioned as a luxury midsize in as much as it will just have a higher price tag because of the badge on the nose.

 

Nissan trucks have a decent reputation around the world for off-road prowess. 

 

Also, again....basing vehicles on common platforms these days works just fine for many car makers, as long as you have a decent base to word off of.

 

If the CLA had more sound-deadening, and better ride tuning it would be a much more substantial car, but perhaps less efficient. Maybe giving it active noise cancellation standard. But I think Mercedes is purely profit driven, which I think is serving them alright.

And you are missing the point of the entire conversation. SMK seems to find perfectly acceptable to criticize GM for putting out Cadillacs as nothing more than "fancy Chevys" while his own favorite is going to do the EXACT same damn thing with Nissan. Just look at the ton of excuses he has given for that being okay while GMs is not and you will where the last two pages here have gone horribly and laughably wrong.

Oh and after having sat in a CLA a couple of weeks ago, I can fully understand the level of criticism heaved its way by just about every major publication out there. Why have that mess when I could a RWD, and much more composed, C-Class for just a little bit more cash?

CLA outsold Regal and Volkswagen CC combined in 2015!

I never drove a CLA, I have only sat in them, as I posted I don't care for the interior. I have read the ride is hard and rough, that doesn't fit the rest of the Mercedes line. It gets good gas mileage, so that is a plus for the CLA. But despite the flaws, the people like the look or they like the badge so much they will buy it anyway. That is how strong the Mercedes brand image is.

Cadillac needs image work, they have needed image work for decades. When I suggest they make a 500 hp V8 crossover, or a sports car above Corvette, or that they should have a DOHC V8 for larger vehicles or V-series, people think I am nuts. Then the CAFE excuse or budget dollars excuse comes up as to why they can't develop a DOHC V8. When Cadillac should have the money to build what they need, and let Chevy worry about CAFE, take the V8 out of the Silverado and Express van and put in 2.7 liter turbo V6s like Ford did on the F150, there is your CAFE gain.

Oops.

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA" "it is cheap, it degrades the brand" Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them. The CLA outsold the ATS last year. True story, it happened. If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them. You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And you sure as hell can't use the sales argument here as an indicator of a car being better than it's competition because then you are just straight talking out of your ass. The CLA has been ridiculed in may reviews since it came out for it's lackluster characteristics. The ATS has had far more positive reviews than the CLA by a country mile so that kills your asinine argument yet again. To further trash your sales argument, I submit the Escalade. It has outsold the GLS every year. Now, using your "logic", is the Escalade better since it outsells the obviously superior Mercedes? Just think about that for more than a damn minute before moving that bar again.

I didn't say I think the CLA is better, I just said that more people rather buy it than an ATS. The CLA always gets crapped on for being such a horrible car, you want to say it is equal to a $20k Focus, but they sold more of them than Cadillac sold ATS. So the public must not think it is so bad. Personally, I don't like the CLA, the interior is sort of cheap, it feels sort of cramped inside too, could be the high belt line of it.

Here in lies Cadillac's problem, the ATS can't even outsell a CLA. Let alone outsell a Lexus IS or A4. Even if Cadillac makes a good car, they can't convince people to buy it. The ATS got good reviews for it's driving dynamics, the magazines love the chassis, but marketing hasn't figured out how to get people to buy it.

The Camaro is another good point by Oldshurst, you have a V8 and a supercharged V8 offered in the Camaro, yet no V8 in the ATS. Cadillac is better than Chevy, the Cadillac should have the better engines. If the ATS can't mop the floor with a Camaro (or Mustang), how can it beat the world's best?

The Mercedes GL outsold the Escalade in 2013, by 7,000 units. And Escalade had 3 body styles to the GL's 1. The Escalade has outsold the GL in 2014 and 2015, but it hasn't outsold it "every year." This is the only segment that Cadillac and Mercedes have a good battle going, but the Escalade and Navigator founded the segment. What is interesting is how the Navigator has tanked, and the BMW X7 is about to emerge. Escalade is still tough to beat.

And yes the Escalade has outsold it more often than not so your weak rebuttal really means nothing. And I am simply laughing my ass off at the "well the Escalade has more choices than the GL". Simply astounding the level of pure hypocrisy you have shown here.

BTW, while you are telling everyone that Cadillac should just relegate themselves to being a second tier luxury company, stew in the fact that the CLA can't beat a second luxury Buick.

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

Seriously. Try that weak and tired argument somewhere else.

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And you sure as hell can't use the sales argument here as an indicator of a car being better than it's competition because then you are just straight talking out of your ass. The CLA has been ridiculed in may reviews since it came out for it's lackluster characteristics. The ATS has had far more positive reviews than the CLA by a country mile so that kills your asinine argument yet again. To further trash your sales argument, I submit the Escalade. It has outsold the GLS every year. Now, using your "logic", is the Escalade better since it outsells the obviously superior Mercedes? Just think about that for more than a damn minute before moving that bar again. 

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

Moving the bar while making more excuses while you try to trash the domestic competition. How utterly typical when you have lost all other arguments here today. 

Oh and I want to see proof positive that someone would take that pile of FWD CLA over a RWD ATS. Otherwise, it's just more BS excuses and hyperbole spewing from your keyboard. Of course, the last time I checked no ATS was compared to a Focus but the CLA sure was and it was not complimentary in any way. 

 

Mercedes already has a small RWD car, building two small rwd cars wouldn't make sense.

 

I always love the anti-Mercedes argument of "but they make the CLA"  "it is cheap, it degrades the brand"  Yet the the brand keeps rolling along, and the followers can't catch them.   The CLA outsold the ATS last year.  True story, it happened.  If the ATS was so good, and the Cadillac brand so appealing, the bottom feeder of the Mercedes brand wouldn't be beating them.  You can get a CLA and an ATS for the same money, more people would rather have that CLA, and CLA has 1 body style, ATS has 2!

And hence my thought process with an ATS does not make me wanna belt out loud Sliiiiiiiiick Black Caaaaaadillac with solid gold hubcaps....making me feel like a king, and hence why I made this thread to see who else may have this doubt about Cadillac...if not the whole brand, at least for just that one model, the ATS.

 

It is quite sad, for a Cadillac enthusiast, to see an equivalent Mercedes Benz product....at least in price if not in quality, to outsell the ATS...

It is also quite sad to see a similar priced Chevrolet on the same lot as said Cadillac product. It wouldnt be so bad had Cadillac been stand alone....but to share the same dealership and to have a lesser brand within the same family compete with you on price defeats the purpose of being top tier 1 luxury.

 

The Buick dilemma is less with the Envision and XT5, because the price of entry is higher and Buick is premium as opposed to Chevy being....gulp....MAINSTREAM and CHEAP....when a Sonic costs $12 000  CDN or so....to have a Chevrolet Malibu Premium touch ATS price tag....to have a Chevrolet alpha platformed brother to cost AS MUCH as the ATS....

Like I said...Cadillac sells the ATS alone in its OWN dealership, not so bad....but to have Chevrolet there....

 

The ATS besides a Malibu....and the ATS just looks like yet another ho-hum compact car....

RWD? 

Big PHOQUING deal!!!!!

 

The CLA from M-B proves it to the ATS that RWD is NO BIG DEAL!!!

Besides....although I have a hard time accepting the Camaro....the Camaro is a stunner....

The Camaro V8 is actually a BETTER machine than the ATS no matter what engine resides in the ATS....and the kicker, other than the ATS-V TTV6, the Camaro enjoys the SAME engines...BUT....between "V" and "SS", the "SS" has the more prestigious engine....

Proof?

The bigger brother CTS-V has got it under its hood....

And the Camaro will gain better versions too....

 

Different target market you say?

 

I say PHOOEY!!!!

 

 

 

Cadillac, JDN better figure out what direction they need to steer Cadillac in, and yes he is only starting....but as of 2016.....I aint singing SLIIIIIIICK BLACK CAAAAAAADILLAC.....

 

I more in tune to singing....

 

 

And Lord knows I DONT WANT TO DO THAT!!!!!

 

I don't know about Canada, but Cadillac does not share dealerships with Chevrolet.

Cadillac needs product, obviously crossovers and V-series are the highest margin products, so I say introduce more of both. All the other luxury players have performance crossovers, Cadillac has squat. There was a time when the M5 and E55 were the only sport sedans, and then all of a sudden everyone had one. Same thing is happening with crossovers.

Cadillac can't do performance crossovers because they have front drive underpinnings on XT5 and probably XT3 and XT7 as well. This makes me think Cadillac should forget about trying to battle the Germans, and just focus on dominating the 2nd their luxury brands. The other option is make 3 front drive crossovers, and 2 rear drive crossovers, build a 5 crossover line up plus Escalade for a total of 6 utilities. Then they'd have blanket coverage of the crossover market, and GM has the size and scale to pump them full of products faster than someone like Jaguar could move into those segments.

And that "logic" right there is why you're not in charge of product planning. In one breath you say they need an XT5 with 600HP and then you say they can't because of it being FWD. Make up your mind on what you think Cadillac needs to do. I know one thing. They are better than second tier luxury and don't need to worry about second tier competition. Knowing that, why would they NOT keep aiming for the best? That is the whole problem with your "logic".

XT5 should have been built on the Alpha platform. There should be a 3-row XT7 on Omega. That is what they should do, either of those products could take a 600 hp V8, a 400 hp twin turbo V6, etc.

But they chose to make the XT5 a front driver so they could platform share with an Acadia, and that platform has a long wheel base option so there is your XT7. This is how to build a crossover on the cheap, not aiming for what is best. Lincoln and Acura build crossovers on the cheap, it got them no where.

If the XT5 and XT7 were rear drive on alpha and Omega, I wouldn't be opposed to an XT4 mid-size front drive crossover at $40k to compete with the Lexus RX. There should be an XT3, Alpha would be better, but the people buying a $35k base price crossover are clueless to drivetrain, so they could do anything. The ideal would be an Alpha XT3 and a D2XX XT2.

And the GLA and CLA should have been built on a RWD platform instead of going for the cheap market.

Good grief bar mover.

Cadillac needs product, obviously crossovers and V-series are the highest margin products, so I say introduce more of both. All the other luxury players have performance crossovers, Cadillac has squat. There was a time when the M5 and E55 were the only sport sedans, and then all of a sudden everyone had one. Same thing is happening with crossovers.

Cadillac can't do performance crossovers because they have front drive underpinnings on XT5 and probably XT3 and XT7 as well. This makes me think Cadillac should forget about trying to battle the Germans, and just focus on dominating the 2nd their luxury brands. The other option is make 3 front drive crossovers, and 2 rear drive crossovers, build a 5 crossover line up plus Escalade for a total of 6 utilities. Then they'd have blanket coverage of the crossover market, and GM has the size and scale to pump them full of products faster than someone like Jaguar could move into those segments.

And yes I down voted you for it SMK.

 

Sold next to Corvettes, and it isn't even "Fancy"

Again, you have a huge problem with comparing apples to apples.

Chevy-mainstream brand that also sells high performance cars

Mercedes-sells uber luxury cars right next to their cheap vans and soon to be fancy Nissan pick ups.

When Cadillac starts selling vans right next to their Escalades, then you have an argument. The fact is that you don't and you have to constantly move the bar to create all these phantom issues for GM while ignoring those very same issues with Mercedes.

Only you will not see the problem with you asinine comparison.

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon. I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume. But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.

Fancy Nissan. Thanks for playing. Also thanks for the laugh when you said that it will steal sales from the GM twins. Nissan sure hasn't done it but hey, a troll can dream right?

Again, fancy Nissan.

Oh and I don't know where you live but the biggest Mercedes dealership here in Phoenix sells their cars and vans on the same lot. That new Nissan will look great sitting near a $100k S Class </sarcasm>

I live in Pittsburgh, and the Chevy Dealerships have Corvette Z06's on the same lot as a Chevy City Express, which is a Nissan too.  I am guessing not many Corvette buyers leave the lot when they see a compact class commercial van on the lot.

 

The Mercedes truck won't have a Nissan engine or transmission, it will have Mercedes powertrain, but they haven't even said if they are selling it in the USA yet.  I still have a wait and see approach on that, they haven't even shown a concept vehicle of it yet.

 

And yes Mercedes is in business to make money, they aren't a non-profit.  GM is also in business to make money.  People here act like it is a good thing if Cadillac sells 200,000 cars a year globally at $50k per vehicle with slim margins because they lack the high profit crossovers and V-series products they need.

So after being busted on the dealership front, you are going to try and compare Checy lots with the supposed gold standard in luxury Mercedes lots? Seriously?

And you wonder why a serious discussion can't be had with you.

Oh and not one person said it was a good idea for Cadillac to operate on slim margins. That is just asinine to even assume.

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

To be honest, I think it looks pretty good.. Fancy? Doubt it. But I think it looks pretty good from that shot. I have a feeling the rear end will look a little out of place because that rear tire looks to be pretty close to the cab meaning short wheelbase..meaning frumpy proportions.. But the from proportions look decent so maybe not. 

If MB really wanted to flex their muscles in the segment and do something in-house then they could produce a pretty formidable machine. But it probably wouldn't be cost-competitive, and GM could always respond with Cadillac versions of their own stuff.

A Benz with Nissan innards is just Benz selling out for dollars, which in turn makes any claims to brand exclusivity impossible to justify anymore.

I think they sold out for dollars when they made the CLA and GLA.. This is a little more icing on the cake. 

 

..Mmmm..cake..

The term "fancy" is taken from SMK's claim of Escalades being "fancy Chevys" while his favorite make wants to put out a "fancy Nissan".

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

Glad to see you rooting for them to steal sales away from the Colorado and Canyon. I expect them to just make a work truck with a turbo 4 engine, lower volume. But if they wanted to make a luxury truck or a performance version, they could easily take over this segment.

Again, fancy Nissan.

Oh and I don't know where you live but the biggest Mercedes dealership here in Phoenix sells their cars and vans on the same lot. That new Nissan will look great sitting near a $100k S Class </sarcasm>

 

Don't do it Mazda. It will be the death of you. Why would one build a competitors vehicle that could eat into your own vehicle sales?

Stay as far away from FCA as possible.

 

If the original Fusion wasn't based on the Mazda 6 it wouldn't have been nearly as successful.   Food for thought.........

 

Exactly. Why do some Ford fans forget that Ford made their living just like that for twenty years with Mazda? Sales from both did not suffer as a result of them "selling against each other" so why would this? Answer? It doesn't.

Hey. Check out this "Fancy Nissan".

What does the CTS-V coming out in 2004 and the standard CTS coming out in 2003 have to do with Cadillac building a V-series CUV/SUV?

 

I am still missing why having a V-series CUV is a bad idea.

Then maybe you should pay particular attention to what I'm actually saying instead of commenting with blinders on. I'm not going to walk you through it anymore.

When you think about it, crossovers outsell sedans.  The SRX outsold ATS and CTS combined.  A performance crossover could outsells a CTS-V.

You are STILL stuck on 'SALES = EVERYTHING', despite being told a thousand times that's not Cadillac's goal.

Who cares how many of what sold, and vs. others sold? You just don't get it.

 

Sure; an XT5 V-Sport would be neat, it may happen, but it's no 'make or break' model.

Exactly. He can't seem to get that little fact through his head.

 

 

 

A $10K price advantage over the CT6 is quite significant.  Lincoln has the upper hand.

Not if the quality of materials, fit n finish is not there and it does not scream luxury.

 

 

In your opinion, have you detected anything through either picture or a journalist's remark (someone who has experienced it in person) that would suggest that this new Lincoln will not have quality materials, fit or finish? 

 

What I see, is continuous improvement in a brand that is delivering on product, but is a step or two behind in perception.  I bet this Continental will immensely help on the latter.

 

Hey Guest, How about sign up and make an account with us?? Officially become a member of the great community here at CnG! Good group of guys here. 

 

I agree with ccap. Don't be shy. Join us for civil discussions about all makes and models of cars from yesteryear to today.