balthazar

Pair of '64 Coupe deVilles, one coming out of retirement (fresh black paint, pieces recently missing) and a solid parts car.

I don't believe it. Chrysler said the same thing WRT DeSoto for '61, and 6 weeks later they pulled the plug. The signs were all there; no more top-line series, no more hi-po engines, they even couldn't bother with model names. None of the same people/business climate is the same now as then, but the signs are right there- Viper, Ram & now the Caravan being pulled.... Dodge's time is definitely limited. What's left over (fiat & AR) aren't very compelling alternatives, unfortunately.

Dealership costs for service is totally out of control. I related this before here- Chevy wanted $2200 to put new brakes lines on my 2500HD. Part of that cost was sitting on the floor with all 7 lines and hand-bending tubing to match. On a modern vehicle like this- there is really no room for an errant contour, esp if you intend to hit most of the factory retaining brackets. Meanwhile, I had CNC-bent stainless lines on my doorstep in 2 days for $299. These import vans beg the very pertinent questions of part supply time & cost- as commercial vehicles, they lose the company money when they are down.

GM has had an 'empty bag' AFA competitive small van for years now, so obviously they "can" be left that way. Now, I do not mean to say they SHOULD, just that they ARE. OEMs frequently have empty slots in their portfolios- this is nothing new. Look at GM's minivan segment- dead for years & years & years- they abandoned that market. The point was : GM has been 'front line' in truck development for 50-some years, if there is money to be made here, built the best ROI product you can. Slapping a $500-1000 profit on a vehicle that's going to be offered by 5 other manufacturers simply with different IMP bumpers does not make for a long-term plan of success. We've seen ENOUGH short-term planning from GM.

Except an obvious rebadge is at the bottom of effort among automotive programs. Unless you were thinking of some slip-shod Chinese knock-off, a rebadge, at best, can only be "enough" and never "more than enough". 1. Unique, groundbreaking product 2. 'in the pack' product 2. collaboration w/ another company 4. subpar product 5. well-done revamp of another's product 6. straight rebadge 7. horrific chinese knock-off

The eMPG numbers have been all over the place- some hybrid owners have reported, what; 450 MPG? Too many variables to compare hybrid MPG in a meaningful way. Doesn't matter at all in this case, of course; mercedees buyers only evaluate ONE thing.

I remember when rolls royce & bmw said the same thing RE a really good automatic trans. They're still using the same source for their auto...... Oh yeah. If margins are slim & the segment is slight, its one thing. If the picture is otherwise (ask Ford), investment can have its returns (yep, I realize the Connect already was). 10 years ago, there were hardly any small commercial vans available. Leaders lead, the rest follow ( or rebadge).

At least when the slightly revised, multiple versions of the same thing came from the same corporation, there were arguments for it, but this is just utter madness. Ninety-Eight- I agree with your sentiments RE 'American thing lost'... unfortunately most noobs are told 'it's fine, don't worry about it'.

Al Gore is much more the S600 type.

Interesting footnote in automotive history, but this is priced like it can levitate. Note they show no pics of the interior (you can find them elsewhere on the net), because overall this car has all the physical appeal of a carnival ride. Still, it does command a good degree of mythicality. http://findyourclassiccar.com/2013/06/20/1959-opel-p1-experimental-best-mpg-ever/ http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/1959-opel-p1-experimental-prototype-gas-mileage-record-holder_100315433_m.jpg

All the sentiments are spot-on. However, note the drudgery of 'same old same old' shows the guy stuck in traffic, and the climactic scenes in the Holden show wide-open, empty rural roads. Truth is, other that sounding good, that same Holden will sit, mired in commuter traffic, slogging it out in the daily commute, and elbowing it's way thru crowded urban roads. In other words, that drudgery is inescapable, and the performance/exhaust note aside, there's still plenty of vanilla here. That, and it's dated IMO.

IF mercedes makes that much on the mainstream vehicles, the profit on the Maybach must've been at least 100,000/car. I mean- that certainly wasn't a 300,000 interior!! and the rest was an s-class. Don't try and tell me they cancelled a profit-making halo flagship car..... how the hell did they F that brand up so badly? Daimler has the same trucks badged as 'mercedes' and 'frieghtliner'. Gee, why does that sound familiar? Plug-in hybrid tech is not remotely new, that had better not be the trump card for the Pullman trim option....

Right, except... mercedees sells a million plus (mostly to low-margin fleets), contaminates their portfolio with garbage trucks & cargo vans, is supposedly massively profitable, is on an intergalactic quest for The Most Sales Possible..... yet even they could not make a case for a tarted-up s-class sedan -their ultimate & SO important flagship- that started stickering at $380,000 !!! So much for 'economies of scale'! lol

Very nice!

toyoyo's problem isn't a scion problem, it's an industry problem. In other words, merely saying the car is 'fun to drive', or 'for the young' doesn't make it so. Beyond that; here's really nothing special about scion whatsoever. And that recent commercial is bat$h! crazy. It will take a true break-away to cause a lasting stir; a breakaway and a strong dedication to that breakaway product, but frankly the rules have constrained things so tightly, I don't know if that's possible.

Why not; Maybach sued mercedes....

Possibly, but I wonder how much MB thinks it can tack on for a trim level, yet still claim they are competing with RR? They took a HUGE hit with the maybach failure. Agreed RE the Pullman name. Check it out tho : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_automobile

^ BECAUSE mercedees has the fleet market tied up and the retail market isn't worth much! You think the EUR fleet sales don't hurt, but mercedes is only circa 35% retail- you don't see any possible connection??? What would their profit/revenue be if the numbers were switched around?? Maybe daimler wouldn't have to badge a cargo van as a mercedees to bolster profits and maybe they wouldn't have to build soo many SUVs. Imports don't sell well in EUR because there are too many automotive bigots in that market. BTW- I wasn't talking about the chassis, but the DESIGN of the CLS. Really weird to have the slinkiest, more futuristic sedan not be your flagship. But like I said; the livery market... What I want to know is, IF this 'pullman' comes to pass under the mercedes logo, does that mean the s-class gets demoted from it's flagship position?

^ Good point. Trying to recall the number for Germany, I believe it was 65% non-retail (overall for the brand). So in some countries I imagine the numbers might reach... who know; 90% fleet or more?

>>"private consumers<<" That's a strict minority, as fleet sales in Germany at least far outstrip retail sales. They're just not sought by private consumers much- maybe it's a budgetary thing. I imagine elsewhere in EUR it is much the same story. We here in NA are left with the smoke & mirrors facade of 'uber lux' to the point we can't imagine what the rest of the world sees. I really would like to learn the average option addition dollar amount is on the s-class in the U.S., since the average transaction price is what- 8K below base MSRP? You look at the option list in the s-class and there are numerous options in the multi-thousand dollar range. This would be an eyeopening auto factoid & should be relatively easy to get hold of... Back to mercedes.... seems the top of their portfolio is a bit of a mess. They have the ubitquitous, generic s-class, then the futuristic CLS (which should have been the last s-class, tho obviously the more truck-like current S is better suited to fleet taxi use), then the debacle of the failed maybach, now maybach 2.0- the pullman. That's 3 cars based on the same platform in the span of a few years. In the recent wings are the freakshow of the F700 (boy, does mercedes like old Ford truck monikers), and the chunky throwback of the 'Ocean'. That's a lot of wild gesturing & numerous design languages. Tho the s-class never raised the design bar for anyone, at least it shambled forward gen-to-gen, but that shambling has slowed to a crawl with the 2014. Smart managers at Daimler would realize the s- is all they have a business case for, and there is no demand for a higher sedan to the point of making it self-sustaining. Instead, the management at Daimler has but one goal- whore, whore, whore the brand out for ultimate sales.

no way, it's the BESSTESTEST! Still, everyone knows those 'orders' don't all pan out. smk makes it look like MB is going to move 144K s-classes (vs. even 2012's 5000-some units). It's just sad that the supposed measure of the 'best lux sedan' is sheer volume...

Yet they only moved 841 of the current s-class last month (and at heavy discounts).

DeLorenzo missed a big, huge piece of the PR tho, didn't he?

^ "1954 & next 10 years" equals 1964- still different. Too many like to brush off Divisional engineering with an offhanded 'they've always been the same damn thing'. I've watched this with a focused eye occur on the internet over the last 15 years, but it needs to be corrected before we get to the point that 'the Cadillac V-12 was just 2 Chevy straight sixes welded together.' Slippery slope and all that.

mercedes is also no where near ready to go after rolls/bentley- they tried & failed. mercedes cannot even get sticker on the s-class. 5-series/e-class 'challenge' has already been met & matched with the 3rd gen CTS; 3-series has been eclipsed by the ATS. Volume should follow, but the german twins have already reached mainstream volume levels- they have whored out exclusivity for profits. Cadillac should keep their volume contained, avoid the gab-ass minivans/ econoboxes/ cargo trucks and build on exclusivity. Lower volume, higher profit should be the goal. While Pontiac did many things to change them they still started with the same damn platform Chevy was given as well as Buick and Olds in most of their cars. They learned to get the look down, how to market it and used performance and racing to present it. If you are referring to the period I mentioned, they certainly were not "the same damn 'platforms'" (no 'platforms'; BOF cars). Each Division in this era (thru the early '60s) designed their own. Buick's was totally unique out of the five '59s. Only thing Pontiac & Chevy started out with was the same damned body shell mounting points & the same greenhouses... the rest was proprietary.