Cmicasa the Great

I don't know where to go with this casa. You seem to be continuing a lot of previous discussions from other sites I think. All I have said here regarding Lincoln, is repeated what everyone knows, that they are building the brand and that they are moving upscale a bit in coming years, while also straddling higher volume, entry level segments and everything in between. I did not compare them to anyone, other than to state they are hardly in a hard place as some keep repeating, with continued sales gains that can soon be counted in years, not months. Small gains, but nonetheless. And my other remark, was that Ford's premium trim strategy, which they continue to grow with Platinum spreading across segments, in addition to Vignale in Europe, is to offer choice and compete with lessor luxury brands, like Buick. You can disagree with that, and dissect the strategies 10 ways to Sunday, but customers don't and won't. A $50K sedan or $60K CUV is what they see. Anyway, back to the topic, Cadillac's struggles. Vignale is Mercury is Titanium. Lincoln better hope Vignale name doesn't come to NA, because unless Lincoln radically changes.. Vignale will drop Lincoln sales down to 1,000 per month.. until DEAD. Ford really will be ONE Ford We are now debating whether Lincoln is a Buick competitor. I'm not the only one think this either as per the thread responses. Top Tier- Super Luxury Rolls Bentley Aston (are they even still making cars?) Maybach (Dead tho) Benz Pullman Tier 2- Luxury (no particular order) Benz Porsche Maserati BMW Audi Cadillac Jag/LR Lexus Tier 3- Premium (no particular order) Lincoln Buick/GMC Corvette (I kno I kno) Volvo Infiniti Acura

Your points are valid to a point. 1) Absolutely. I am seeing effin Mustang ads every freaking day. Had the same momentum of the ATS ads, in the beginning, kept up, then their sales would be double. Speculation yes... but I saw a great deal of excitement seeing the ATS racing down the mountain side in Italy(?) a few years back.. "Robot Arms" would have been fine had a celebration actually been in order. The CTS, on the other hand started off with one commercial that I remember and haven't seen since... the "Moon Shot." 2) I don't agree with this at all. The ATS is necessary and should be fleshed out. A beautiful car left bland in anything not incorporating full fascia. The LED vertical front lights should be across the board at Cadillac. The ATS should have had a convertible ready for Summer. A Wagon. A Hybrid. It is possibly the most important car at Cadillac in convincing the masses that Cadillac is no longer "snooty and old luxury." In view of sales the proportion of sales is on point with the CTS tho. Eclass sells almost 45 of what the C-Class does. Same for the two Cadillacs. ATS sales need to go up though, but they could do this by advertising it and offering more desirable options.

The Lacrosse was marketed and designed to be an alternative to the Lexus ES350. At the time of its release.. the ES350 featured Cloth seats. It made the move to "Nuluxe" imitation leather for the 2012 model year. Frankly.. I think cloth seats SHOULD be an option in ANY class. I think that limiting choices is not luxury. Yes.. that means that if a person wants.. WANTS cloth seats in their Mercedes S-Class they should be able to order them. Perhaps to keep it premium.. they should all return to having Velour on the menu Let me tell U.. this $h! was COMFY.. and U never slid down. I once took a girl out in my uncle's 75 Fleetwood... This was in 1988.. and she let me do things to her that a 16 year shouldn't even kno existed all because she sat back there and said "wow.. these seats are so soft..."

I don't often say this, but there are a lot of good points above. Go back and look at a lot more of my stuff since returning.. and U will say it more often than not

Your commentary doesn't include the reason for the Regal and Lacrosse starting lower.. due to more trims and engines. It is there where part of their success story lay because of them being able to legitimately and unapologetically share engines with the Chevy brand. Lincoln needs to do this to increase their sales. I will add that Lincoln doesn't currently have China to increase its viability to the mother-ship the way Buick has with its. Buick outsells FORD. not just Lincoln.. all of Ford as of 2014 by over 200K units

You know what? I was going to say something to that extent. He makes a point but when you break it down, it all falls apart. Comparing today's Buick with yesterdays Mercury to try to make Ford equal to Buick, illustrates Ford problem. They tried to make Ford like Mercury, and Lincoln then and are trying to be Ford be like Lincoln now with their Platinum and titanium trims. Lincoln and Buick compete with each other more so that Lincoln and Cadillac. Given that, Ford is stepping on their own toes when they offer "Platinum" models that mirror most features of their supposed premium brand in Lincoln. Even after all that, he still hasn't shown how Ford's upper lines match, much less exceed, Buick's offerings. Has nothing to do with what is SUPPOSEDLY known industry wide. The only thing that seems to be known in the industry is that Ford still has a massive product overlap problem. Maybe that will change with the re-branding of Lincoln to a higher level offering but I've been hearing that for almost two decades now so I'll believe it when I see it. This.. The business model is the same Buick is essentially Chevy the way GMC is Chevy. They have very little to do with Cadillac as a donor except the Escalade to GMC (Yukon Denali) and the XTS to Buick (Lacrosse) Lincoln is Ford. The lost of PAG.. solidified the ambiguity. Lexus at least has offering that share little. Audi the same. Within a corporation where the mother-ship (Toyota brand, VW Brand, GM Brand (Lets face it.. GM=Chevy) is dominant there are always gonna be donor cars from the mainstream brand... something BMW and Benz probably wish they had. Ford doesn't have the same ability as GM, Toyota, or VW because it can't hide the donor cars within the unique ones. Had they kept at least Jag/LR, they could

I'll say this.. the new Lacrosse will solidify Buick's claim to Premium, and if the Park Ave (Avenir) does show up.. then it is an absolutely done deal. All existing Buicks will be new and upgraded by '17/ New LaX, Verano, Enclave, Regal, Envision, and Encore (Updated) will be on the road.. with a surprise or two. Unless Lincoln comes with something more than the "Continental..." the debate will be pointless, as Buick will do the talking for me.

I meant redundant in the since of SPORTS car.. but obviously the Camaro has 2+2 seating and relies more on the Corvette as a donor for tech and engines. I still stick with my assertion that the Vette, with its every rising cost of initial ownership would be better off, in terms of customer service, with the concierge, Ritz type service of Cadillac vs the roll-away cart Holiday Inn-Express type service of Chevy. We are now talking for 2016 $56K for base Stingray to $115K for a base C7.R

The thing is that Wings U are wanting Lincoln to be something it is not.. to compete where it doesn't. U wish Lincoln to be seen as an alternative to the #1 Luxury brand, currently Benz, when it is not. It would be like me trying to compare a Cadillac with a Rolls. Once upon a time, but not in my life-time or yours. Buick on the other hand can be called Premium with no red-flags being raised. It is a premium brand.. as is Lincoln. Lincoln, nor Buick have't have the cachet, the platforms, or even the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same sentence as Benz, BMW, Audi, or even its origins sister, Cadillac. Lexus.. because of the LS, GS, and LX have a real claim to being luxury.. Cadillac is aspiring to be what it once was WITH actual cars that fit the bill. Are luxury buyers jumping ship from the Germans to experience it in droves.. not yet. Much of this is Cadillac's own damn fault.. and has nothing to do with the cars it HAS, but the cars it DOESN'T. BUICK.. and Lincoln are EXACTLY the same business model. In fact,. if GM and Ford were to ever merge... it would be these two names that would have to be decided upon which to keep.. not Cadillac. Lincoln's damage currently is much worse than that which was Cadillac's back in 2002. Facts: In 2002 when the CTS debuted: 1) Cadillac was looked upon as a "older, snooty, people brand" but not damaged. The issue was that Benz, Caddy's truest competitor at the time (Not BMW) was moving towards the BMW model with SPORT/LUX while Cadillac was still pushing Luxo-Floaty rides like the Deville. 2) Cadillac,ironically, followed the Lincoln idea in '98 with the Escalade intro instantly bringing youth into the brand.. 3) The CTS was so polarizing as a Cadillac that it instantly peaked interest from people who would otherwise pass it by. 4) The Intro of the XLR, SRX, and new STS was icing on the cake. The fact that none of those vehicles survived the real change at Cadillac.. 2009's BK, was quite possibly part of the plan. 5) Cadillac actually has had unique attributes that none of the other GM vehicles have had. Sure the Escalade shares with the Tahoe and Yukon.. but it is truly elevated in a way that I have to turn my head away when an Escalade pulls side by side.. especially a Platinum. Engine.. AWD.. Looks.. Interior.. Suspension... brand Cachet... It also shared with Saab... the BLS/9-3 and the SRX/9-4.. but neither ever made it here to it's main market. On to Buick... Buick was EXACTLY where Lincoln is... in 2007 when the Enclave appeared... but only in the United States. Buick has the advantage of China.. and interesting enuff Opel (Side Note: Buick is the largest reason why GM does not want to kill Opel). Personally I love the way GM has handled the Buick brand... and its sales in the US are seriously coming up in a way that I'm betting many pre-BK execs did not expect. I mean there was debate on whether it.. or Pontiac should have survived. Of course Lincoln does not have Buick's clout in China.. it does not have Opel (Europe)... it only has the United States of which last year it didn't even brake 95K sales. Buick on the other hand sold 228K in the US.. and 1.1 Million abroad, mostly in China last year. IN FACT... Buick is inadvertently keeping Opel alive thru out this shared.. by Ford, GM(Opel), and Fiat Euro issue. Buick... with VERANO.. ENCORE.. REGAL (yup Regal) LaCrosse.. and Enclave are killing... My only issue really stems from why isn't Buick pushing the full line-up on Opel.. and vice versa. Who wouldn't love to see an Astra OPC here in the U.S.? Observations from the last NYIAS revealed a weird dynamic in the Big Apple.. GM somehow had made Buicks as buzz worthy as Lexus.. Point of fact. . there were actually more people sitting in Buick's Encore.. Regal, LaX, Enclave, and Verano than their closest counterparts at Lexus. The Enclave was a curious thing.. as I heard several people commenting on its size.. and essentially how it had a more luxo interior than the RX, but with more space. The HARD PART This is not a congratulatory to Cadillac, Buick, or GM. They still have a lot of work to do. BUt it is a reality check to Lincoln and Ford... I kno it is very hard to have a legitimate discussion with some of U in the thread because many impose such an asinine look on everything said about Ford that it moots the original objective of me, the OP. That being said.. I am not trying to offend or belittle Lincoln. Point of fact I am offering a way in which it could survive the market turbulence it is experiencing by, ironically because of your statement, "NOT offer(ing) products that start at $23,080." Quite frankly they should!!! Having their entry level starting above Cadillac's.. BMW's... and even Benzes'... is UNBELIEVABLE. I was discussing it with a friend the other day.. and quite frankly that brand strategy automatically limits their sales to that 6K-7K monthly they are at now. SOme tout it like some sort of pride.. that because Ford believes that Lincoln is a $37K-$70K commander... the actual buyer does too. It does not.. and YES.. sales speak volumes to that. This is the one segment where sales are completely relevant to the desirability of the vehicle. Only in the super-Luxo status of limited Bentley, Rolls, and Porsche non-Sports cars can limited sales be immune. A Full-Line Luxo builder??? Sales are an indicator of desirability. Right now.. in the U.S. at least.. BMW, Benz, and Lexus are supreme in that regard.. but Cadillac.. finally with proper product is coming on strong. They need marketing. They need MORE of that product. Cadillac and Lincoln currently have the EXACT same amount of names... yet Cadillac at a higher ATP is selling almost 10K more per month.. with that so-called "handicap" Buick selling 15K as well. GM was smart as hell with this strategy.. because if gets to service customers who want luxo.. but at a slightly lessor price. Despite the Verano starting at $23K.. it is ATPing at closer to $30K In a tiered strategy the Buick brand should STOP.. where Caddy begins. Profits soar. Hence the reason why VW wanted Porsche despite Audi... Cadillac is now able to offer a $100K Omega.. or $200K Cien... This is the flaw of Lexus. They are a tweener trying to sell the consumer on a $100K LS460h and a $400K LF-A on the same showroom floor as an ES350.. that has the same engine.. EXACTLY The same engine as the Camry. No options.. just that. Yes an ATS has the 2.5L from the Malibu in it.. but it is an OPTIONAL engine. The ES has no options. Not to mention the ATS and Malibu/Regal have virtually nothing else in common. Same can't be said for the Camry/ES.. nor the Fusion/MKZ

I have posed this question before to hard core enthusiasts and most always say no.. because of tradition. My thought is that the Corvette is now essentially in Porsche territory in terms of quality, fit and finish.. and obviously performance and tech. Many non-enthusiasts don;t even kno that the Corvette is a Chevy. I $h! U not. Most people I talk to who are not enthusiasts think the Corvette is a.. Corvette. They kno the cost is not cheap.. and in reality Chevy is the "every man" brand of GM. It is on par in terms of perceptional with Ford, Toyota, Nissan, and Honda. My thought is screw tradition. It holds the brand back: 1) Porsche is no longer "traditional." The 911 is not the volume car at Porsche.. it is their Flagship. The Corvette is, in many ways, on level with Porsche's Cayman/Boxster to 911s. It should enjoy the autonomy. 2) The fastest car at GM should be the CORVETTE.. the Corvette just shouldn't be a Chevy. The Corvette should be sold thru Cadillac dealers so that its service level will be up to par with its price. As it stands... Chevy dealers do not have the level of service amenities or coddling that is necessary to handle the buyer of a $60-130K sports car. Cadillac does. But as a bone for Traditionalist.. keep the Vette at Chevy, but separate it within the dealership experience. 3) The Camaro almost makes the Corvette redundant as a sports car at Chevy. The Camaro is on level with the Mustang. It could be a viable Flagship for Chevy at this point especially with the Camaro stretching out all the way to $80,000 for a Z28. Its performance is undeniable. It is no longer the go to for tack heads with mullets or guidos with gold chains. The Camaro is down right "Premium" in its own right 4) A revisit to the profitability of a Corvette Brand. The Corvette division is something I've been talking about for years though.. It has occurred to me that Chevy, and possibly GM really are pushing for the Camaro to be the Halo car for Chevy these days. If so... is the Corvette finally gonna get the autonomy it deserves as a separate brand, just sold in Chevy, or better yet.. Cadillac dealers? Quite frankly I believe that GM would make very large profits with a Corvette Specific brand in the same vane as Porsche's 911 and Cayenne: a) Stingray $55K-75K (Base Model 460HP) b) Grand Sport $65K-85K (Upgrade with 550HP) c) Z06 $85-105K (650HP) d) ZR1 $110K-150K Mid-Engined (720HP) e) a yes an ALPHA based Coupe CROSSOVER with a 320HP V6, a 450HP LT1, and a S/C 580HP LT1 as well. All of this would continue to be sold at a CHEVY dealership in a separate (even if by partitioned wall) part of Dealership with specific/exclusive sales reps and technicians, again better yet would be the Cadillac Dealers being able to Cadillac would get the a pick 3 of those vehicles. a) CT7 (based off Stingray) would be a 2seater coupe with a 300HP 2.0LTurbo, optioned with a 440HP TTV6 for the Vseries (vs SLK) b) CT9 (based off Z06 and GS) 2seater with 460HP base, and VSport 580HP with optional "Check the Box" V-series at 650HP c)Cien (CT11) (it along with the Escalade would be the only non Alphanumeric) It would be completely based off mid-engine ZORA and would come out before it. 720HP for coupe and a Roadster at 730HP GM would have a viable competitor in these two divisions to both Porsche and Benz/Audi in almost all categories. Its time and they need to act once the Z06 is in place for the Corvette and the CT9 in place for Cadillac. Properly engineered and leveraged they could use these two brands to usurp the profit reigns from both Toyota and VW.. using the VW strategy as Audi and Porsche are where its actual profits come from (Toyota's profits actually come from, and I'm not BS-ing here, leveraging older platforms under new skins with very little upgrades in terms of engines. (See Camry and Corolla). With Cadillac and a Corvette "semi"division within Chevy, along with GMC and Buick, which are extremely profitable, GM could be what it once was in the pre-90s as far as profits. Cadillac should have a version of the Corvette, perhaps augmented to be a mid-engine car like the ZORA is rumored to be. It is my opinion that Corvette.. as long as it is directly under Chevy's dealership network should not in anyway get a version of the proposed possible ZORA. Cadillac should have a version of the Corvette, perhaps augmented to be a mid-engine car like the ZORA is rumored to be. It is my opinion that Corvette.. as long as it is under Chevy's dealership network should not in anyway get a version of the proposed possible ZORA.

Buick competes with Lexus in a sense. Lexus is comprised of luxury vehicles AND premium vehicles. Their bulk sales are premium. The RX and ES are in no way a luxury vehicle.. they are premium. The NX is premium. Meaning 70% of their sales came from the PREMIUM market in May. Buick does it differently. They are premium thru out with the Enclave being a luxury vehicle for the most part. Cadillac is all luxury, even with the SRX. The XTS shares its underpinning with Chevy and Buick.. but their is no way in hell anyone can equate the XTS as anything other than luxury. "Traditional luxury" is the best detractor one could have for pertaining to the XTS. Having Denali is not a deterrent for Cadillac to have the Escalade as a single SUV choice under the brand. GMC should function as a up-level alternative to Chevy. As it does.. very well. The fastest car at GM should be the CORVETTE.. the Corvette just shouldn't be a Chevy. The Corvette should be sold thru Cadillac dealers so that its service level will be up to par with its price. As it stands... Chevy dealers do not have the level of service amenities or coddling that is necessary to handle the buyer of a $60-130K sports car. Cadillac does. Cadillac should have a version of the Corvette, perhaps augmented to be a mid-engine car like the ZORA is rumored to be. It is my opinion that Corvette.. as long as it is under Chevy's dealership network should not in anyway get a version of the proposed possible ZORA.

HA! That is funny! Cadillac is going away from that. The XTS will be history, so is the SRX...now...what bones will the SRX have? Well, it might not be bespoke Cadillac trickled down to Chevy like the Alpha platform is....but then again...a new SRX might very well be on the Alpha platform...but then again...it might have Chevy bones first...like the 'Slade is....so what? On another thread... you admitted to knowing that in Europe...both BMW and Mercedes use the 3 Series and 2 Series and the C Class and E Class and now with the CLA as mainstream and fleet vehicles...but I guess that is OK with you...but God forbid that GM does that with Cadillac and their lesser vehicles... Oh...Audi...yeah..lets talk about Audi...actually...YOU tell ME what Audi platform is actually bespoke to Audi...a platform that is NOT used by Volkswagen or Seat...on the lesser vehicles of course...but then again...a Cayenne Porsche is also a VW...a Audi A8 is also a Volkswagen...I guess that is a pass because the VW versions are expensive as hell...but then again...Chevy Tahoes dont come cheap either... Cadillac is going away from it, but not there yet, that is why I said they are sort of split right now between 2 worlds. But even the ATS/CTS/CT6 turbo 4 and V6 are the same engine in a Camaro. The Germans can fleet sale in Europe because Cadillac, Infiniti, Acura, Lincoln aren't there, and Lexus is a blip on the radar. If Cadillac fleets themselves out here, it would probably hurt their image even more. Audi has a lot of it's own stuff. The MLB platform is used on Audi A4-A8 and Porsche Macan, the 3.0 supercharged V6 is Audi only, the 4.0 TT V8 is Audi/Bentley only, the W12 is Audi/Bentley only, and the Quattro AWD system is different than the VW 4Motion system. Quattro runs in a 50/50 split, while VW is primarily FWD until the rear wheels slip. The Audi A3/Q3 are using a VW chassis, engine and awd system. The Toureg/Q7/Cayenne share a lot of mechanicals also. Audi is FWD based and in their homeland and the rest of Europe they are pushing out FWD vehicles even in the A8, their flagship sedan. Comparing Cadillac, Lexus and Audi to BMW and Benz is a hard thing because they are given a pass on parts bin sharing because they essentially have no "parts bin." Cadillac, beginning with the CT6 is getting an exclusive AWD system with adjustable variation on setting. Variable depending on the drive mode. Sport mode gets a 20/80 front/rear split, Tour gets 40/60, and Snow mode splits it right down the middle. The Voltec system has been modified as well for Cadillac, along with the Omega platform for now being exclusive to Cadillac.

Irrelevant.. Pricing is not indicative of quality. The CLA AMG is $50k and a POS. I never said anything about quality of product, solely price and place in market. The Buick LaCrosse and Lincoln MKZ could compete with each other based on similar price, but the 2 brands don't compete with each other. Which Lincoln competes with the Verano or Regal? Which Buick directly competes with the Navigator? Does Buick have a 400 hp Lincoln Continental fighter? Buick is not on par with Lincoln. Buick is not a luxury brand. Lincoln is a luxury brand, just not a very good one. The LaX competes with the MKZ or ES350 for that matter in all things except the Hybrid. For all intent the LaX is a downsized XTS. The Regal is a sporty premium sedan... Just because Lincoln doesn't have one doesn't ill-legitimize the Regal as a premium vehicle.. I will give Lincoln Premium status, but that's about where I stand.

Irrelevant.. Pricing is not indicative of quality. The CLA AMG is $50k and a POS.

Good points. Something to consider though, is that Ford premium trim products are already equivalent to Buick, if not beyond. That eliminates brand redundancy. So Lincoln can then be free to move farther upscale, as well as straddle the lower end of premium trim plus for needed volume. One thing for certain, luxury segment is growing, and in all directions, not just upward, but horizontal as well as downward, as manufacturers seek to build their own volumes. And there is no single business model or approach that is best. Today's luxury customers are vastly different than just a few decades ago. As a Lincoln fan, it is exciting to see just where they are going with it. People who think they are done, are about as short sighted as one can be in this industry. Buick is a redundant brand to Chevy. But it is a redundant brand in the same way that GMC is to Chevy that sells 1.2 Million vehicles globally. The thing is that Chevy LTZ is as well done as Ford Titanium/Limited. Buick is above both in most situations including perception.. and I really feel as tho it is in the same level as Lincoln, just currently more viable. Put it to U like this... if Ford still had Jag/LR.. I'm pretty sure that Mulally would have killed Lincoln when he was considering it due to Lincoln only selling 94K last year ..., meaning the same CTS and ATS U try and talk $h! about constantly came within 33K of outselling the entire Lincoln brand throw in the XTS,... and they actually came within 10k of Lincoln. 3 cars.. vs MKZ, MKS, MKC, MKT, MKX, and Nav

I gotta say that being able to buy a $45K vehicle for $28K is a helluva bargain.. but its the norm within an Industry that U have no knowledge of apparently. This is most likely to U cheering on and believing that a slightly plusher Fusion or Taurus.. is the epitome of the segment. $17,500??? I kno where I could get a $50,000 discount on a 2014 S63AMG 4matic.. that's a fact I understand the CTS to be a fine automobile from Cadillac. Never, ever, have I said it was not, nor have I ever suggested it was less than a Ford equivalent, which does not really exist anyway. At least not is size and architecture. And although my Father retired from Cadillac and I was raised a GM kid and have driven in more GM vehicles than I have Ford, I wish GM no ill and cheer for them whenever I can. But….. I must admit taking an ounce of pleasure in providing this information, right smack in the face, of the same few people who trash Lincoln’s ever step, every chance they get, which is legendary. My point? One size, shape or approach does not fit all. GM needs to better understand it’s customer, and adjust it’s whole approach to that demographic. If that means a bit more conventional and desirable plush-ness in a luxury sedan that also differentiates itself from the world, rather than duplicate it, then so be it. And since every other luxury automaker seems to have prioritized offering the customer what they want, CUV’s, then Caddy is now behind the 8-ball there. People want them so bad they are settling for that tired excuse of a small CUV, and GM is happy to keep lowering the price of it through incentives. Come on Caddy, you can do better. PErsonally I don;t need to hear your GM origins anymore.. Its like a white guy saying he's not racist because he knu a Black kid when he growing up... The deal is that U ARE taking an ounce of pleasure in baiting Cadillac fans because of lower sales that can be explained not by bashing the existing car.. or the manner in which drives or doesn't... but in simply taking a look at the real reasons why it isn't selling in the same numbers as the competition. I will be the first to admit that it is Cadillac's fault that the CTS and ATS aren't selling in the same numbers as the 3/5series or C/E-class, but I would also point out that it is a strong possibility.. logically speaking.. that the proportion of ATS and CTS sales are within the same numbers.. or close to their more established German 3 counterparts if the variants are seen side by side. By that I mean.. ATS Sedan/Coupe sales vs C-Class Sedan/coupe sales not including variations on options not avail. Of course that is a stretch to justify what I'm saying, but the reality is again that Cadillac is the culprit and reason for their lower sales.. and they alone could have made it easier on themselves by: 1) At time of intro of ATS, calling it the CTS. The CTS in 2012.. was already in its 4th MY. The could have called the ATS the new 2013 CTS, just released it early. 2) The CTS should have been the STS. It is for all intent.. the STS. Its price and position reflect that it is sitting in the STS's old spot in fact.. 3) Both vehicles should have launched with pre-existing variants from get go.. considering they are the under-dog. The new (CTS)ATS took 2 years for the Coupe to arrive. WTF? It should have followed deep on the foots steps of the previous entry level vehicle.. and because of that, again, it would have been seen as the NEW CTS, with damn near the same price and no sticker shock for returning buyers. In truth.. there wouldn't have been much "Size Shock" considering the ATS really isn't substantially smaller internally than the Gen2 CTS. VSeries of both should have launched 6 months ago. 4) CTS is the STS replacement.. but we also have the XTS on the same lot. A vehicle that was said to be the DTS/STS replacement.. Price point and all. The CTS and XTS are basically the same price. But peep this... the XTS has a few advantages that the CTS doesn't.. AWD in a 410HP (basically a V8 replacement) TTV6. Its larger.. it is to the traditional car buyer.. eff luxury car buyer..ANY car buyer due to its size.. considered a FLAGSHIP. What makes it an issue is that this FLAGSHIP (whether enthusiasts want to admit it or not) that is larger.. has basically the same power... and can be had in AWD.. costs the same as the CTS.. basically considered the lower offering for old reasons and new reasons pertaining to size and amenities. Look at it like this.. If I told U that the 5series and 7series were the same price... which one would U feel more confident that U were driving in the "Top of the Line" BMW at a bargain? 5) Back to variants. U can not sell a ATS convertible to a luxury buyer looking for a convertible and trying to choose from a 3/4series (BMW doesn't break sales of these out) vert.. an C-Class vert... or an A5 vert.. or IS ver.. or G37 vert. That one HUGE. That means that Cmicasa the GREAT... lover of all things GM.. lover of all things Cadillac.. lover of the ATS.. can't buy an ATS if he needed and wanted a entry level convertible. CAN'T, CAN'T, CAN'T, CAN'T!!! Same thing for the CTS. 6) Cadillac sales overall.. are gonna remain down while the public settles in with is 180 of the old Cadillac perception of floaty barges. Quite frankly GM has the money and time to get this ship in order. Technically the brand is printing them money even with the new projects on Alpha and Omega because the MINT called Escalade which is begot by the Denali.. which is Begot by the Yukon/XL.. which is Begot by the Tahoe/Suburban.. which is Begot by the Silvy/Sierra, and the SRX. It isn't a Equinox or Terrain platform mate, but it share about 70% of their DNA.. It has sold in numbers that are extremely admirable... 54K sales in '14, and already 25K this year.. that's the amount the MKX sold all of last year. And idiots on the enthusiasts forum want it gone. Its paying the bills along with the Escalade. The problem that Cadillac has is that for some reason it doesn't duplicate the bread and butter vehicles. There should have been a Lambda SRX-L out 3 years ago. SORRY to the enthusiasts. It should have been differentiated.. maybe with AWD only and a V8 or TTV6. There should have been a car based SRX-m debuting with the ATS in 2012. Things is that the Europeans aren't playing by the rules of luxury anymore. We have PORSCHE pushing a four-door sedan and two CUVs.. BMW is NOT the world's Ultimate Driving Machine anymore.. On top of that their non-enthusiast line up consists of 5 CUVs and the bitchiest lil car on the market, the i3. I mean this car is more bitchy than the Prius. I can't think of a better way to describe it other than using the word FAGGY (That's not a sexuality comment either.. but a descriptor of the perception in words.. ) Audi... the same as above sans the i3 Mercedes is ALL OVER THE MAP. In fact I would say that if not for the upper echelon of their trims.. Benz could be described as near luxury.. on par with Buick and Lincoln. I'm serious. The S-Class and the AMG models.. OK and the CLS make them legitimate, but their lower offerings are visually, and realistically no more dynamic than a Buick, Volvo, or Lincoln. $h!.. I could, and some will scold me for saying it.. park my IMPALA LTZ (top of the line) next to an E350 without badges and I bet U good money after an unknowing person perused in and out.. they would come back sating that the Chevy.. a EFFIN Chevy was as nice or better than the E-Class

Still... cause and effect.. the GPS, or rather the insanity of us still using "suction cups" in 2015, IMO, would be more at fault than anything else if U had of crashed.

Not only that.. I'm pretty sure that some of the decision to not sell these willy nilly to the public comes because of CAFE. To the guy who mentioned a drop in market share.. GM market share is at 17.9% up.. from 17.7 last year as of May 2015. Ford Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai.. were all DOWN

I gotta say that being able to buy a $45K vehicle for $28K is a helluva bargain.. but its the norm within an Industry that U have no knowledge of apparently. This is most likely to U cheering on and believing that a slightly plusher Fusion or Taurus.. is the epitome of the segment. $17,500??? I kno where I could get a $50,000 discount on a 2014 S63AMG 4matic.. that's a fact

The ATS coupe arrived during the 3rd model year of the sedan, not exactly speedy roll out. So if the excuse of Cadillac not having any body styles other than sedan for the CTS being the reason for low sales, well that is their own stupidity then. Make a CTS coupe then, no one is stopping them. There is an E-class coupe, and an E-class convertible and wagon. M-B is adding C-class and S-class convertibles in 2016, so that all 3 lines have sedan, coupe, convertible. It is well known that I agree with this sentiment. The thing is that we kno this.. we have the information.. we kno that the competition has extra variants that feed their sales.. we kno it we kno it we kno it... yet.. idiots who like to troll.. well known for trolling and comparing Lincoln numbers to Cadillac in an effort to bolster that $h!ty brand.. keep posting threads like this since 2013

^^^ I agree... the part I'm having trouble with is why people are thinking that the BMW interior is superior to the CT6 in terms of design or quality... just because. The only thing I will give the 7series over the CT6 in reality is that it will offer that driverless parking feature.. cool as $h!. Outside of that.. I am still in #TeamCadillac all the way. yes

speaking of... The idea that the CT6 is not an S-Class/7 series competitor is literally under-promising, and over-delivering by Cadillac. Compare: From Benz site: 1) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid also offers multiple drive modes so you can customize how you want to spend and recover energy. The CT6- Plug-In Hybrid will allow driver to choose among three operating modes named Normal, Sport and Hold: 2) The S-Class Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 20 miles The CT6 Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 37 miles The 740e Plug-In Hybrid will drive solely on electric power up to 23 miles 3) S-Class Plug-in Hybrid Combined power output of 436 hp, 479 lb-ft of torque (3.0-liter V6 gasoline engine + electric motor) Acceleration: 0-to-60 mph in 5.2 seconds CT6 Plug-in Hybrid combined power output of 335hp, 432 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor) Acceleration: TBA.. but I'm betting it is lower than that 5.2 seconds 740e combined power output of 308hp, 332 lb-ft of torque (2.0L Turbo+ Electric motor) in the X5e it gets to 60 in 6.5 seconmds so I would guess it should pull into 60 at about 6.2 in the 740e 4) S-Class Plug-In is est city/highway: 21/26 mpg CT6 Plug-in is est to be more than double that of the conventional CT6 (which we kno is similar in many respects, due to weigh savings, to that of the CTS (2.0L Turbo with 6speed gets 20/30MPG).. so a CT6 Plug in coming in at 40/60mpg??? Keep in mind that the S-Class Plug-In Hybrid is est (by C&D) to come in at an almost "Tahoe like" 5100lbs. I gonna throw the cash down on "Black" The V8 S-class gets 17/26 mpg, I am pretty sure a V6 hybrid will beat that. In the CLS the bi-turbo V6 gets 20/30 mpg, granted it isn't as heavy a car as the S-class, but if they had an S400, I think it could get 18/28 mpg. Not sure how a hybrid system would add virtually no mpg gain on and S-class and a 200% gain on a CT6. S250 Bluetec was World Green car of the year in 2012, and S500 hybrid was runner-up in 2015. I didn't see the A8 or 7-series winning anything. CT6 poses no threat to the S-class, it won't be priced high enough for people to cross shop it. The 7-series barely mounts a challenge, and the other guys are also rans in this segment. Got my S-Class numbers from Benz site.. so maybe the Germans are doing what they obviously do very well; lie their asses off to get idiots in the showrooms convincing the fools that they are actually better

To the C-Class point.. there are almost 400 pre-2015 C-Classes for sale in the U.S., and last month their were about a 1000 more.. all being sold at nice discounted pricing.

He will try and make some excuse about how the lower sales of the MKZ and MKS are actually more relevant to the sales race despite them both being derived from base line Fords and have pretty $h!ty driving dynamics and about as much cachet as a tube of BenGay. CTS lost sale because it lost 40% of its line-up from the previous model on top of the $10,000 price hike and a move from being entry level to the mid-size offering at Cadillac selling at the same price as the larger XTS, which is still perceived, because of its larger size and available AWD in the HI-PO model , as a "Flagship at a Mid-Size car price." 28,000+ car sales vs Lincoln's MKZ, MKS, and for spit and giggles... the MKC's 25,000+// with the Cadillacs selling at a higher ATP

*edited to remove personal attack, don't do it again* - Mod Can I get a thread on why the Audi A6.. put of the German 3, has only sold 8,978 models this year??? On a more logical note... The CTS sees a drop in sales from last Gen after a major price hike and a drop of variations. How much of a drop? About 40%. How much of a percentage did the Coupe and VSeries account for? About 40%. Wagon was a bonus. nice pic