smk4565

To convert Alfa Romeo to an all EV brand is pretty easy, they only have 2 products both of which would be due for replacement by 2024 anyway. As for the bring back V6 idea, engines will never go bigger, only smaller. Car companies aren’t going to put any money in new engines, they are going to let the current ICE power trains run their course and kill them off.

But not production cars, and on a track AMG One will slaughter anything because it is made for a track, not top speed.

The fastest cars around a track that are available now are the Black Series and GT2 RS. The fastest car is the Bugatti Chiron at 273 mph. Tesla does have great 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but the Ferrari SF90 is right there with it, the Rimac is even faster than the Tesla, but I am not really calling that a "production" car. They are all European cars. I don't know if there has ever been an American car under 7 minutes at the Nurburgring, let alone 6:43. There is no 275 mph Corvette or Cadillac Cien to take down Bugatti. And the AMG One hasn't even hit the track yet, which will just shatter anything the Black Series or GT2 GS have done, probably set a 1/4 mile record. All the high performance cars are from Europe. And it isn't just American cars dropping the call, Japanese and South Korea too. Genesis, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura are all out there, they tossed out short lived stuff like the LF-A and NSX (which is officially dead in 2022) which aren't as fast as European sports cars, the now super dated Nissan GT-R, was impressive in 2009, not anymore. Where are they all at? I don't think one Asian car company has a 600 hp car right now, not one 200 mph car either. Mercedes, Porsche and BMW make sedans that can beat a C8 Z51 around the Nurburgring, why doesn't Cadillac or the Japanese? And then you have 290 hp "F-Sport" cars or A-Spec Acura's with 350 hp that they think are performance. Those people are clueless. They need to step their game up. At least Tesla has brought performance to the table.

A Ferrari has greater performance than an M4, a Ferrari ownership experience is also quite different than a BMW ownership experience.

An M4 Comp is about $75k unless you option it up, similar to Corvette pricing. There is also only one Corvette engine now, I am still waiting in the Black Series and GT2 RS beater. Until they get something faster the C8 Z51 is all they got. Probably true that a Cadillac hyper car won’t do anything for them, but I just said a $250-300k vehicle, could be an SUV, sedan, convertible, etc. Tesla too should go up market with a more luxurious product, their interiors aren’t that great.

I am not a Tesla fan, I don’t need to defend them. Let’s see what the production version Plaid does on the Ring. If they can’t beat the Taycan maybe Tesla is a one trick straight line pony.

I think the Camaro will become a sedan because the Impala nameplate doesn’t really carry as much weight and it has to be one of the two. 2 door cars in general are dying, I suspect Mustang stays a coupe unless sales get awful, GM has Corvette for their coupe. I feel like car companies will have 1 coupe, and I don’t mean per brand, but per corporation, like Stellantis with 12 brands maybe does 2 coupes.

The C8 with Z51 is a half second faster around the Nurburgring than a BMW M4 competition, half second slower than an M5 CS. That’s not Ferrari territory and both those BMW’s have a back seat. And for $100k the Ferrari you’d get is a Maserati Ghibli or Alfa Romeo Guilia Quadrafiglio.

You are making 2 different arguments. On one hand saying the Corvette can keep up with the exotics but on the other saying that even though the Corvette is down on power or speed from a Ferrari, but it is cheaper, so that is why. The Corvette makes a great performance per dollar argument, but it is not a better performer than the exotics and super cars. And on the flip side, what is stopping GM from making a $300,000 car? Whether it be sports car, sedan, SUV or whatever. If GM engineering is that good, they should be able to build a vehicle at that price point and sell it.

I don't value the Ferrari brand name but others do. Obviously Mercedes has hammered them in Formula 1 the past 8 years and I don't see Ferrari holding the Nurburgring lap record. And no doubt the AMG One will shatter any performance metric the SF90 sets. I don't like Ferraris, but obviously people pay big money for them, new and classics, people will spend millions on one.

A Ferrari 296 is lighter than a Corvette, the Ferrari 488 is 300 lbs lighter than a Corvette, it is lighter than a Porsche 718 too. I think Ferrari could make a sub 4,000 lb EV, which makes their weight 1,000 less than what a lot of others will be probably. The 488 is a 3,000 lbs car, take out 600 lbs for engine and transmission, add 1500 lbs of batteries and electric motors and it is still 3900 lbs. And if battery tech is better by 2030, maybe it is a 1000 lbs of battery and only a 3400 lb car.

Beancounters ate GM now wondering how they can sell a V6 Corvette for $321,000 base price.

Perhaps, but a Ferrari is still going to handle corners better than an EV truck or even something like a Model S, because Ferrari can build that car from carbon fiber and lightweight materials and undercut other EV's on weight. And they can digitize the sound, it's lame but cars pump in fake sound now with gas engines, no reason they can't do it on an EV. And it will still be a Ferrari, and the Ferrari name makes it worth 100 grand more than other cars.

Yeah, look at how much they are worth selling under 10k cars a year. This is why brand name matters. I don't know if FCA was even worth $44 billion when Stellantis was formed. And that is why Ferrari was spun off, because they were worth about the same as the rest of the company however many other brands they had at FCA. Ford worth $55 billion as of today.

https://luxurylaunches.com//ferrari-made-a-staggering-95000-of-profit-on-each-car-it-sold-in-2019.php That was 2019, Ferrari made $1.4 billion EBITA last year so probably a little under $1 billion net income, and they sold like 9900 cars. They are in the $95-100k profit per car the past few years if you just look at profit and cars sold. Obviously some of that profit is t-shirts and merchandise, but without that brand name they wouldn’t move merch.

I am saying the Corvette competes more with the 718 as they overlap directly in price, where as a 911 starts about $40k more than either, and you can run a 911 to $250k or more if you want to. And in Car and Driver's comparison the Cayman beat the Corvette. And as I said, some will take the Corvette's horsepower and performance (and bigger trunk space and practicality), others will take Porsche handling, build quality and brand image. The brand image isn't everything but it is very important. It is why a Ferrari Roma that has the same performance as a Corvette but costs $160,000 more. That Ferrari brand name is why they make $97,000 per car profit. And I think for sure there are people that want a sports car, and they pick a Cayman over a Corvette (or Nissan GT-R or Supra) just because of the Porsche name, and they won't even test drive those other cars because they are a Chevrolet or Nissan. And that actually goes both ways, I am sure there are Corvette owners that won't drive a Porsche because it doesn't have a V8 or is a foreign car or whatever their reason is.

But eventually Tesla will build all that stuff. All the other Teslas had delays, they eventually all got build, and they got production volume up over time. Even if the Cybertruck, Roadster and Semi show up in 2023, that is like 18 months away, I don't think the market will be flooded with EV's by then or that Tesla will miss the boat somehow. Mercedes is showing 5 EV's at the Munich auto show next month, even if they get all 5 on market by 2023, I doubt even they will be outselling Tesla on EV's. And personally I hope Mercedes mops the floor with Tesla, but I think Tesla will be their toughest challenge, more so than Lexus or Cadillac or BMW even have been.

But without the 718, they would still have less sales, those 6k people a year that buy one aren't just going to find an extra $50k for a 911. And my Mercedes is a 2008, and I have no doubt it will last past 2030 if I decided to keep it that long, I have had it 8 years and will eventually replace it, but it is still in like-new condition, no rust, engine doesn't burn or leak oil, it has been paid off for years, so no reason to get rid of it. It still shines this well as a near 14 year old car. IMG_0202.HEIC

Because one is a Porsche and once is a Chevrolet. That is my point. Brand image matters. Not haven driven either of them, I would assume the Corvette is the better car, it has more performance, but Porsche does have the reputation for build quality and reliability as they have racked up a lot of JD Power awards. Now if you look at this Car and Driver article from last year, the 718 Cayman GT4 beat the Corvette Z51 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a33825844/2020-chevy-corvette-stingray-z51-vs-2020-porsche-718-cayman-gt4/ Granted it was by 1 point in the ratings, and their lap times were .1 seconds apart on the track. So those 2 cars are pretty even, personal preference as to which one you prefer. And if they are even on subjective ratings, and even on a track, then I can see brand name being a deciding factor for people. I wouldn't buy either of them, but I get the appeal each has to buyers.

People that can't afford 911's are buying 718's. And maybe some people that want a 718 GT4 that is a track toy and just want a lighter car. I've sat in the CT6, I wouldn't trade that interior for mine. Low quality materials, after 10 years it will look worn out. Also I have a W211 which I think had a better interior than the W212 pictured there, plus I have the V8 car it has the Nappa leather seats and door inserts, so it is nicer than the base model.

718 exists so Porsche can sell more cars, and some people like a smaller, lighter, more tack friendly and tossable car. The 718 is only 3,021 lbs. Obviously the 911 is their flagship car, but the people shopping for Cayenne's aren't comparing that to Chevy Blazer. Porsche is after a different clientele than Chevrolet. I don't drive a C300, I have an E550, but when I sit in Cadillac's the only interior I'd say is on par with my car is an Escalade. The Cadillac sedans have bad interiors, the CT6 had a bad interior, I see cheap plastic GM switchgear all over the place, it is like sitting in a Chevy. Also a 2021 CT5-V is about as fast as my car from 2008 (in fact they have identical 0-60 times), and I am sure the V8 in my car sounds better than GM's V6. In my current situation with having a company car, I have put 2100 miles on my car in the past 8 months, so it doesn't make financial sense to buy any car when it won't get driven. My next car will either be the current SL550 as it's the last of the hard top convertibles, the next gen SL once it is used and affordable, or EQE if that looks good and I decide to go electric. But the convertibles are dying, might as well get one now while they still last, and in 10 years it will still have value since car companies aren't making them hardly anymore.

It isn't over priced if people pay it, and pay more than that for a 911. If GM could charge 911 prices and pocket an extra $50k profit per car they would do it. Porsche brand name lets you charge more money than Chevrolet brand name. And since this is a Tesla thread, I will go back and say the Tesla brand name is really strong. Tesla will be a formidable opponent to other car companies, especially the mainstream ones, more so than a Mercedes or Porsche that already have brand image and customers used to paying high prices. But when Chevy, Ford, Toyota have to start selling Escape and Rav4 size crossovers at $50k because EV's cost more, that is going to be sticker shock for the people that walk into a Ford or Toyota dealer, where as people will easily hand over $50k for a Tesla SUV that is the size of a RAV4. The Model 3 is basically sized and equipped like a Corolla or Focus, and people will pay $40-60k for one because it's a Tesla. And Tesla has a story behind them, the charging network, etc. Lot of reasons they will be hard to beat.

I think the Corvette is the best sports car under $100k, and they are a great deal on the used car market too. Personally, I wouldn’t buy a Chevy. My first car was a Chevy, then I had the Oldsmobile Aurora, so any GM car except a Cadillac I feel like would be a step down. And after a Mercedes for 8 years, I feel like a Cadillac is even a down grade. If the Corvette had a Cadillac badge with a Cadillac interior then it would be something for me to consider and I’d probably take it over a Porsche. But I wouldn’t buy a Chevy. And when I said I judge a product, brand image is part of that.

Car magazines compare them, buyers don’t. Rich guys living in $2 million dollar houses that own 7 cars aren’t going to Chevy dealers to get great performance per dollar. They are buying the Turbo S or GT3. In fact there is a guy who works in the same office building where my company has an office that bought both, he has a 911 Turbo AWD for winter and also has a GT3, so that’s like $400k spent on Porsches and I heard he has a Lamborghini also. People like that aren’t comparing a Corvette. And Chevy is right to price the Corvette against the Nissan GTR, Supra, 718 Cayman|Boxster, Shelby Mustang, etc. the Corvette is better than all those cars. But exotic cars are a different game.

That is basically what I said, the 911 is better but you pay more for it. Dress up a 911 Turbo S for $225,000 and it is faster and more luxurious than any Corvette. Plus it is Porsche dealership experience vs Chevrolet dealer experience. For even money at $99k when you can get a loaded Corvette vs a bare bones 911, the Corvette is the better buy all day long. But people shopping 911’s or Ferraris are shopping price they want the best car, most exotic, most wow factor, doesn’t matter what it costs. This is why I have long said GM needs a car above the Corvette, make a Cadillac sports car that starts at $200k and can be built up to $400k. Make an electric super car out of carbon fiber or something that has wow factor.