FUTURE_OF_GM

On the market for the highest bidder. I've always believed that GM should re-align to provide the consumer with 3 paths. 1) Align Chevrolet/Chevy Trucks and Buick for the more traditional volume buyer. This buyer would be found at a Toyota or Lexus dealer; they want an appliance with pizazz. (And yes, Chevrolet could keep it's performance and character, it just needs homerun volume cars too) This channel can focus more on volume and quality. 2) Align Pontiac/GMC and Cadillac This buyer wants driving dynamics and performance. He/She could be found at a Nissan or BMW dealer. This channel would focus on exclusitivity and prestige. 3) Align Saturn and Saab. This channel would be for the style concious and technological buyer. This buyer can be found at a Honda, Acura or Audi dealer. This channel could pull volume, but it would take a lot to build the volume. The potential is there. The odd ball would be Hummer, but with big investments in style and technology, it could be paired with Saturn and Saab. Especially given its low volume.

This is not specifically directed at you... But I think the GP is a moot point. The G6 cannabalized the GP because the two cars compete. It's the same story with the Malibu and Impala, the cars are too similar and Epsilon absolutely slays the much older and cheaper (perception-wise) W-Body. It's just anohter example of GM half assing everything. These cars should not be competing in the market, yet we're apparently doomed to repeat this mess with Eps II (On the Chevrolet side anyway). I'd like to see how many people cross shop the G8 and G6 in comparison with the cross shopping for G6 and GP. I bet the numbers are drastically different. My fundamental point is that GM is way too concerned with only a fraction of the market and this is the main reason why they are squandering the advantage that having multiple divisions allows. They should cover the ENTIRE market instead of focusing 2 divisions with 4 seperate models at the same damn customer. I'll use my tried and true ketchup example. Why sell 4 different colors of ketchup when you can sell ketchup, mustard, A1 and barbeque sauce? Over simplified, I know but it's simple business sense.

I think the GT500 looks as good or better than the Challenger. The Bullitt doesn't... But then again, I think this version of the Bullitt is pretty lame.

It's all about a sense of entitlement... GM dies, but these people are still entitled to whatever they want. I'll stop there so I don't offend.

It is. But I also heard that you could run too much oil pressure and float the valves in a motor with hydraulic lifters. I guess the lifter would fill to the point where the valve would not close and thus be burnt. I know oil pressure isn't all that dependent on the amount of oil, but anyway... It's not a trick question, it's just something I started pondering... I mean, I've never seen it happen but I've heard of it and it just got me thinking. Is it a myth?

How many people bought a Camry because they were a Camry fan? How many people bought it because of "facts" in the media and the tremendous lease deals? (Yes. I love playing devils advocate)

How much excess oil does it take to float the valves in a small block Chevy? I added a bit too much oil to my '68 Camaro (1/2 quart) and while I was draining it, I got to thinking; how much is too much? Would a half a quart over be enough to float the valves or would it have to be significantly more?

No, they shouldn't... I'm all for killing Saturn (the dead duck) and killing Saab (the endless money pit)

It's not even that complicated... If GM wanted to, all they'd need is Delta II, Eps II and Zeta. Hell, they could do it on Epsilon! Look at what we have here now; an Aura that sells on style and a Malibu that is apparently going to sell on efficiency. Why not continue to push the green envelope with the Malibu and push the G6 as the performance Epsilon?!?! Mod the suspension, drop another motor in it and make a REAL GXP. Falling sales? Who cares, the car isn't supposed to be for everyone anyway and Pontiac isn't supposed to pull volume anyway. The only other GM car that comes close is a Saab and I'm willing to bet that those customer would *gasp* never be caught dead in a G6. It's so simple that a 10 year old could do it, yet GM can't seem to figure it out.

EXACTLY! The youth are already more Pontiac biased anyway because of exposure to the pop culture and it's representation of key Pontiacs. Ask anyone my age what they think of classic Trans Ams and you'll get a positive response. Now, before people get all pissed about my 'youth' comment, bear in mind that I am referring to divisions within GM. The ONLY division that comes close to attracting youth like Pontiac is Chevrolet. That's a VERY sad and scary reality. (Is GM using any of it's divisions to appeal to youth?) Sure, Saturn has made progress, but not much. Cadillac is appealing, but not affordable and chances are that those who do aspire to a Cadillac will be swept up by a more affordable mid-lux division (Acura, Audi, etc.) and form strong ties to it. Hummer was appealing. This is where Pontiac could excel... Give these people something to step into before they step into the Cadillac. Buick will NOT be that for a very long time and Saturn will always carry the 'geek' image because it still is kinda cheesy and geeky.

You can build the prestige of all three brands through customer service and corporate campaigns (Think: dealer promotion) It's basically the same idea Ford had with PAG, except done right.

All subjective... Saturn is a trickle in the bucket (especially before the product renaissance, you know the one that Pontiac has yet to receive) Buick is STILL a drop in the bucket despite large news on product. My point is; everything is subjective... I can sit here and tell you that Acura is a joke and should be phased out because it's the same $h! that you can buy on a Honda lot but I bet you wouldn't like that too much. The same goes for Audi which is just a shadow of VW models with a better marketing campaign, yet eventhough VW is in bad shape, I don't see anyone calling for it to be phased out. Once again, I ask, how much of this is fact and how much of it is people giving in to the mindset that Detroit must downsize? A mindset that has been forced on us by the media since the 2001 Oldsmobile announcement

I agree. And GM could use their heritage/enthusiast image to their benfit if they would wake up and offer the consumer a choice. Tell the consumer: "HEY, we're not Toyota and we're proud of that! If you want a reliable appliance, then by all means buy one. But if you want to take a chance and actually fall in love with your second largest purchase, then shop us." It's that simple... Americans buy stuff based on EMOTION, not logic. How many people do we all know that buy Japan Inc. based on their negative emotions toward Detroit? A LOT! We live in a vain, consumerist society and GM could exploit that so well if they'd wake up.

Most people don't because they AREN'T ENTHUSIASTS. However, I'm willing to bet that they'll consider the new product when they're shopping for a car. (Even if they don't tell you that) Recently a study was published that showed significant declines in the number of buyers that DO NOT consider Detroit. GM (and Detroit), the new product IS WORKING! All you have to do is weather the storm and the storm (UAW curve, Pension, Cost, Regulations, Generations changing) doesn't care if you have 1 division or 8 divisions. If the GM ship is going to sink, it'll sink regardless of what cargo is on it.

I beg to differ, my friend. Toyota has a cadre of VERY loyal fans. It's just that they don't build the same kind of cars that we enthusiasts like, so not many auto enthusiasts are a part of their "loyal fans" (Although Toyota trucks seem to have a very loyal enthusiast style following) You know what pisses me off so bad about this... It's not the fact that Pontiac isn't an all RWD division... It's not the fact that Pontiac apparently will not get Alpha... It's not even the fact that Pontiac isn't a focused performance division as it should be. What pisses me off is the fact that this is pure politics and nothing more than squandering the life blood of a company that is already bleeding to death. You know what GM, if you need Pontiac for volume, then make a f*ckin' volume division out of them!!! If you want Pontiac for performance, then make a PERFORMANCE division out of them! You HAVE the resources already at your disposal, you don't have to develop anything. Kappa II is already underway, Epsilon/Epsilon II already has a G6 program and the Zetas are here and so far selling well. We have a new Vibe and Delta II is coming in 2 years It's your INABILITY to focus the division ONE WAY or THE OTHER that pisses me off. You are allowing a division that could have JUST as much or MORE appeal than 3 out of 5 of your other car divisions, to waste away just because you're too IGNORANT to make a decision and shuffle some papers. It's not that hard. If Pontiac is confined to Epsilon/Eps II for volume, then buuild one helluva G6 and pump up your volume or build an AWD G6 and tackle the mid-level performance market. It's not ROCKET science! (pun intended), be successful at WHATEVER you do and it will help your business model. In order for the division to produce returns, you MUST invest time and money. I thought that was learned with Oldsmobile. I live in one of the top 20 cities in america, in the increasingly import dominated south, in one of the richest neighborhoods. What do I see people my age (20-30) driving? Not Auras.... Not Malibus... I see G6s and I talk to people who would consider the G6 over anything you sell. Just the other night I was out with a new friend who drives a Prius. I told him I was a GM guy and the first thing he said was: "I really like the G6 and new Aura." Pontiac has GREAT potential to be EVERYTHING that GM traditionally is not, and maybe that's why those in middle mangement are so scared of the division. This mindset/marketing has the ability to connect with the consumer on a whole new level because of the attitude the division did and can again convey. If given the product, Pontiac would lay waste to Saturn and probably seriously threaten Buick in a few years. I saw a G8 in traffic today and it is such an amazing car. It was almost like one of those commercials where all of the other cars are gray and out comes this bright red beauty. It draws you in and you know that it is something special. As for us loyalists... We might not buy as many cars as the Toyota drones, but remember, we're ALL you have right now. Most Toyota drivers don't give 2 $h!s that GM exists, much less if they continue to exist. So go ahead and "cut" yourself to death, it'd be doing us a favor anyway if we have to defend the legacy of a corporation that was once so great yet can't even get the hell out of it's own way now.

My background is Psychology and Sociology... Environment affects everything whether you choose to believe it or not.

Maybe we can hope for the NG G6 to really catch on... Or maybe this is all just and speculation in the first place. I have a hard time believing that Lutz & Co. are so oblivious to things that they would allow GME to just up and blackball Pontiac like this. Lutz especially was a champion of the division. As far as the Buick... So were getting an Alpha Buick and an Alpha Cadillac as well. That's pretty f*ckin' dumb, I mean, the two divisions are already competing. How long until one of them is targeted to be phased out because GM is too ignorant to sell products in more than a few basic segments? I'm sure the fact that GM can sell the Alpha piece at a higher price point under Buick has A LOT to do with this. I guess they're to impatient to realize that the same higher prices could be fetched for Pontiac if they'd put an honest effort forth to rebuild the division. That's it... If Pontiac dies; I'm out. Here's to the death of GM and the appearance of PCS in the unemployment line. Maybe he can be a janitor at Ford next.

Yes, but. There are ways around this in packaging the GMC/B/P channel together. They can be promoted as one brand. Buick is/was in no better shape, especially before the Enclave debuted. And Saturn sure as hell doesn't have the perception needed to sell what it is currently offering.

Thank god! Another voice of reason!

So it's a bad year... Can you get virtually everything every other GM division offers at other GM divisions? Hell, if anything, Pontiac has the most unique line up at the corporation now with the introduction of the G8, G8 ST and Solstice Targa. Weather the storm... DO NOT give up ground for the sake of "what might be" That's all I'm saying. The media and the consumer ran "the worlds greatest corporation" into the ground. Anti-american sentiment and the need to feel sophisticated through 'being elitest' and 'being different' ran GM into the ground. I do not deny that GM management was nothing short of a disaster for a very long time but this culture is largely to blame for GM's demise. It's the same culture that outsourced the middle class, the same culture that buys stuff at Wal-Mart, the same culture that criticizes your kid at school for not being able to afford a $100 pair of jeans and the same culture that says you're not good enough unless you get into the top school and land the top job. Just my :twocents: the more you cut, the less of the entity is left to begin with. The more blows the entity receives, the less strength it has to fight back. Go ahead GM, cut all of your divisions except the "dynamic three". Then we can all laugh as no matter how hard you try to become relevant again, you remain a small scale automaker that struggles to get off the mat and compete until you eventually die. In this market, there is no clean up unless it's the clean up like Mitsubishi and Isuzu have been experiencing. It's too competitive to try birth an entirely new corporation and expect to gain share. GM still has a lot of legacy cost and in order to fund that, they'll need to gain share regardless of the cost savings if they dynamite divisions. That's not going to happen. I don't look at it that way. To me it's either death or suicide. And I hate to be that dramatic and negative, but it's true. GM is facing falling sales and regulations as well as economical factors that they cannot control. Eventually, the corporation will probably die anyway. Why not go out firing on all cylinders and hoping for the best instead of quietly resigning and allowing the market to swallow you whole?

Rebadging is thrown around so loosely today that we could say "Lets throw away 82 years of Chevrolet rebadges for the sake of Opel rebadges" It's getting ridiculous IMO.

Using that same mindset: I could buy an Aura, but the Malibu is much nicer. I could buy a Vue, but the Equinox Sport is lighter and more my style. I could buy an Outlook, but the Traverse is basically the same thing except cheaper. I could buy an Astra, but it's dated and the Cobalt SS whips it's ass on performance. I could buy a Sky, but then I like the individuality of the Solstice Targa better. I'm not trying to be a ball buster, but how much of this "Pontiac must die" mentality is just that instead of fact? My point exactly... How much does Pontiac cost the corporation? Seriously? No stand alone dealers, no product development, not much marketing... Sounds like politics to me.

So Saab has a future, but Saturn, Buick, Pontiac and GMC do not? Whatever... I and hopefully many will kiss GM goodbye if they become another appliance maker. I don't want a Chevy because I don't want to drive the same $h! as 15,000 other people. Screw Saab and Cadillac as they will be one in the same if GME has their way and Hummer doesn't sell cars. Looks like I'm going European.

P.S. Anyone still believe that the media has repented and is being honest with the Detroit marks? I told you all that the enthusiasm would be fleeting. I've seen this game before.

I disagree 100%... Lutz, just as most enthusiasts, perfectly understands Pontiac. What he also understands, just like most enthusiats, is that Pontiac cannot exist solely on what it WAS in the past. Those buyers ar disappearing and the new buyers that aspire to be that way likely won't because they fear the yuppies stereotyping as 'redneck' or 'ignorant' or 'unsophisticated' Pontiac performance must evolve to include both the divisions heritage as well as what DEFINES performance in todays market. I agree 100% but that doesn't mean it has to be limited to a specific audience. (i.e. boomers wishing to recapture their youth) If that were the case, then Pontiac would be doomed from the start and would just be prolonging the inevitable. That sounds excellent... However, marketing doesn't need to worry that much (as far as major pushing) about Pontiac for 2 reasons. 1) The G8 is NOT a mass produced automobile and is currently selling to expectations on the support its getting and 2) Pontiac is not a volume division anymore. Sure, I'd LOVE to establish Pontiac with a massive, kick ass promotion in all outlets of media but it's not going to happen because 1) the public won't buy it yet because Pontiac hasn't put out enough credible product yet to erase all the 'bad memories. And 2) Technically, as long as Pontiac sells it's quota right now, it doesn't need a lot of marketing because it isn't a growth division at this time. Now, once it is re-established and has an aura worth promoting (via product) that's when the big push is needed. Wrong sir... The Vibe is a perfectly acceptable entry and would be AWESOME if GM would put a performance edge on it. Remember: Performance isn't defined as ONLY RWD V8 muscle in todays world. Performance can come in a variety of packages and Pontiac should exploit ALL of them in this changing market if it is to survive long term. And the GTO and TA would cannibalize each other while the GP would be lambasted because of some automotive media bull$h! from 1973 and neither the Bonneville or GP would sell to self righteous, self conscious boomers. And how does that solve anything? Will GM make money off of this more specific, more expensive, more exclusive line up any more so than they do now? Where will the marketing money come from if GM is having to push the Malibu and Aura that much harder to make up for lost G6 sales? According to Lutz, the brand is doing fine now, G8 is a runaway success, Vibe is kicking ass for April, G5 and G6 as well as the Pontiac division are up... GM would be remiss to not seize this opportunity (with the market shifting bak to cars) to utilize Pontiac, theri only "car only" division to make a multi-pronged attack on the imports. But I fear they are too ignorant to realize that. ***** This is the same re-hashed piece that Delorenzo put out about 2 years ago. It's pure bull$h! and to believe it is not to see the full picture. (That includes you GM). Looks like the media is gearing up for round 2 of the "Lets destroy Detroit, slowly, piece-by-piece" war. All over a market that EVERYONE, even my grandmother, knew was going to suck because of the economy and Detroits cost structure. Give me a break.