Camino LS6

Exactly. To what purpose?

Another electric toy doesn't address the larger problems. These cars have to charge themselves before they will matter. Meanwhile, we need to move on to things we can do right now. If we could convert say 15% of our existing fleet to CNG, and another 15% to ethanol, we could buy decades of time for fuel cell development and not get caught with our pants down again. And ethanol is a renewable resource which could provide us with a domestic supply of fuel all on its own for an indefinite time. I prefer gaseous fuels, but both ethanol and CNG could get us off of oil right now if we decide to make it happen. I'd be far more charitable toward R&D on electrics and fuel cells if we were using what we have at hand to get the problem under control today. It's a sin that GM has built over 5 million FFVs and we have no fuel to use in them. That's where our immediate focus should be.

Decent looking wagon.

Australia does so many things right...

Why?

This is not a horses vs. cars situation. And it will never be. Until the fuel cell makes it so. Full electrics cannot become factor until then. Panic brings electrics into fashion from time to time, but they have no staying power without the fuel cell. Batteries are never going to cut it. Electrics are a dead-end until they can generate their own power on-board. Think of the Volt as proto-fuel cell, and you will get where I stand on this. We need simpler, more immediate, solutions.

So repulsive.

But imagine this, if you will. The Volt system sort of in reverse. On a full-sized pickup E-assist style. The gains could be quite impressive. And using 4wd could be really something. Now extrapolate that to a large percentage of full-size pickup production in this country. That sort of application is where I see electric doing the most good.

The short version is that by the time that EVs could make a real difference, it will be far too late to matter. By themselves that is. I do see them as a near- ideal option in a place like LA....

Sorry for the quote mess - not quite sure what happened there.

Why not? If we had that thought process, things would never change. EVs are not going to take over the world-they are just going to be a bigger part of the market, that's all. Gas will always be an option, the question is more one price... They can't change things because of several things. 1) All electric cars combined make no measurable difference in our oil consumption, and they can't because even if sales could rise to that of a successful midsize they only enter service one model year at a time. The shift won't be significant for many, many years. 2) If production of EVs ever rises to a level that makes a real impact - then our grid can't handle it. 3) There is very little indication that the tech will work in applications beyond smallish cars, we don't function without trucks. 4) Range is inadequate 5) Battery supply is inadequate (as is the supply of the required materials) * The exception is the Volt (or rather its technology and approach - which should be scaleable) I would assume pretty much the same.... They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there.... That's just the most immediate problem. Can I safely assume the gas station idea here? Sort of.

They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there.... That's just the most immediate problem.

It won't change things, because it can't change things.

I don't say so, and never have. I think it will take a combination of technologies to get the job done. I have always said so - several times in this thread, in fact.

Or to put it another way, provide me with an alternative fuel that I can use today and I'll immediately convert my Tahoe to run on it. That means an ethanol pump nearby, or better yet, a CNG pump. I'd love to stop burning foreign oil products today.

Ah, that's a different one. The one I remember was based on the Corvair van.

Good points all. However (and this is what vexes me), we are not addressing the problem head-on. What we need are substitutes (plural) for oil. Not only are we not taking that search seriously enough, but we are ignoring some excellent interim substitutes that could be implemented today, with current technology. Further, we are allowing artificial barriers to entrepreneurial solutions that should be springing-up all around us. Free the innovators that know how to use what's available now to make things better now. I am old enough to remember the gas lines of '73, and our progress since then has been piss-poor. So, my patience with pie-in-the-sky diddling with electric cars and waiting on fuel cells has grown a bit short. I want to see real steps taken, and taken now. Brazil has done it with ethanol. Australia is doing it with CNG. We have many resources and I want to see them all put to work.

There are several misunderstandings here, as well as a number of assumptions. I'm not referring to a manufacturer when I say that we are putting all of our eggs in the electric basket. I'm talking about the perception among many that everything will be just fine once we move to all electric cars. There is a strong emphasis on this one road as our "magic bullet" moving into the future. It isn't. And it probably can't be. And I believe that it should not be. I also believe that micro-engines in micro-cars is not the answer. As I believe that tactics like CAFE are not the answer. Electric cars are a distraction when we should be taking steps that make a real difference in the here and now as well as the future. I don't fear change, I fear mistakes.

Yes. It was also a Corvair.

You misunderstand. I am not against anyone choosing to buy and drive one of the current crop of EVs - far from it. I am also not against the automakers developing the technology. I am merely pointing out the shortcomings of the cars (which are many). I am against putting all of our eggs in the electric basket and expecting any measurable results. It is a foolish way to go about things, and hasn't much of a chance of ever solving our energy problems.

specious.

C'mon Drew, you know better than that. You know that the owners of these cars will find themselves in circumstances where their full-electric car lets them down due to range. It will happen. You also know that my point remains valid that these cars do not yet measure-up. Wanting these cars to be the solution does not make it so.

I'm not a Buick fan, and this is a project. But A full-value Cheers for this one!

Sounds equitable to me.

Well, crap! Sorry to hear about this, Cort. I wish you all the best, on all fronts.