enzl

There's no doubt that the Saturn's have longevity...and the older models have the distinct advantage of the plastic skins remaining fresh. It's the Ion & Vue's distinctly Fisher Price interiors that marked them as downscale or low rent. The No haggle policy left little chance to truly sell on price. That's why the desireability of the latest (ironically non-polymer) products is so critical to the brands revival.

Exept for the fact that it improves mileage almost as much... without the complexity or hype of claiming mild hybrid status.I would have sooner liked to see the 2.4 with a 6 sp.

As a dog owner for 2 animals I adopted, I really don't have a problem with the law....there's way too many unwanted animals being killed every day. And, anyone who knows anything about animal training knows a neutered male is a much more docile, happy indoor pet. My two boys are both 'aggressive' breeds and the reason I've never had an issue is because of the 'fix'. (Oh, and oncblu, 'matronly hips', 'girlish figure'?...I'm thinking you might need help, dude.

True.Most customers, in my experience, have no idea how poorly their 'investment' will hold up over time. We routinely have customers 'upside down' to the tune of $5k or more! Americans have no clue when it comes to debt management...you'd be better served burning the money for heat in the winter!

That's not entirely the resale issue...the problem isn't resale at 5 years, it's resale at 1,2 or 3 years that really screws the average consumer, especially if they're credit is poor or their needs have changed which necessitates the trade....The average Ion probably loses close to 40% of its value by year 2, the average Corolla or Civic is probably half of that...additionally, as the Ion owner above has indicated, the ability to sell his car is diminished by the Ion's desireability, so trade may be the only viable option. I would agree that the longer you hold the car, the more your logic holds, however, that's generally not what happens in the real world---especially since Americans feel its their god-given right to drive a new vehicle on demand.

GM's are about average...the Small volume imports fair worse, Honda & Toyota's a little better.True test will be the current gen of product for the home teams.

Media bias watch: http://www.cnn.com/2007/AUTOS/06/06/jdpa_quality/index.html "Ford gets 5 top quality awards" caption on front page of CNN.com!

I'm sympathetic, but only to a point. I feel that for every editor with an axe to grind, there's about 10 valid gripes about the incomplete way in which the domestics have competed over time...even with many recent products. While I share an enthusiasm for the industry in general and I'm personally vested in the domestic's survival, I still have to wonder WTF when I see certain decisions and the resultant product misfires. I just wonder if the lights are on, at all, sometimes. Please understand that I give noone a free pass and I genuinely don't have an agenda. I love cars, first and foremost. I am unbelieveably lucky to have made it part of my career and I look forward to every product I get to sample, as, much like your children, there's something to love in each of them. It's just that the awfulness of certain issues concerns me deeply and, perhaps, should concern you guys as fans. Nothing personal, just my .02.

FWIW...there's only 20 engines with faulty camshafts that have proven to be affected, so I don't think this is the proper topic. Google Toyota and Sludge, just for your information.....A Wall Street Journal Article, Edmunds.com and a number of consumer sites come up in the links. I don't dispute that the media uses the domestic 3 as a punching bag....my argument is that much of it is deserved--it certainly was in the past...plenty of solid new product gets good reviews, regardless of source. BTW-The new Focus is based on the old, old 2000 Focus, instead of the new (Mazda 3/VolvoS40)--that should be ripped--the new Prius hasn't been seen yet---and the Prius is about gas mileage, not styling. The current one looks like a$$ too!

I'm not sure what b-pages you guys are reading, but Toyota's recent foibles have been laid out for all to see. AS far as Media Bias goes, I believe most here make the 'overreacting' mistake that has it's closest parallel to someone calling your significant other a 'pig'. You want to punch the guy who uttered the statement in anger...I can understand that feeling. The essential problem is that GM is a pig. She/he might be getting lighter through diet (laying off workers), working out (great individual programs like the 900's) or getting effective counseling (Lutz?), but at the end of the day, the truth is out there for all to see. The serial mistakes of the previous administrations at GM are a price that must be paid. I am not a Toyota fan...I respect their blind determination and drive, and I believe, unlike others, that this kind of zeal must be met with equal force. I don't consider the Aveo, Cobalt/G5, HHR, Impala, Malibu, any Buick short of the Enclave, the small Pick-ups or a number of other offenders more than average efforts. I think GM must be pushed harder and react faster or MORE jobs will be lost, less profits will be made and the likelihood of failure rises dramatically. Media Bias, IMO, is an excuse for every deficiency GM's products have...I drive these cars, all the time. You aren't going to convince me that the Cobalt is in the same league as the Civic or that the LaCrosse is a demonstrably better product than the Camry. They just aren't and the negative press is there because the product isn't up to speed. YOU can believe what you wish, you can opine on what you'd like. I respect your opinions, even if I believe they are wrong. And, BTW, the only reason I ever made claims about what I do for a living was in response to people here questioning my credibility or my angle on things. Trust me, GM's renaissance is completely in my best interest...I just hope those that disagree with me will allow my continued participation here.

Carbiz & Olds_ Since its apparently your job to counter my every post, this pompous ass would like to thank you for the effort. Don't worry...I'll eventually get sick of being undermined with hysterical half truths and lame excuses of dubious merit. Here's my reply to both: When the 30 years of crap is made up for by 10 solid years of quality and technical superiority....then I'll back off. Until then, people like you only serve to undermine GM's absolute need to improve. If you honestly think that what GM is producing, across the board, is better, than fine. But face the fact that people are not only going to disagree, they might occassionally be right!

You're new here, so I'm going to cut you some slack.I'm not going to rebut your argument with a list of domestic makers transgressions, but suffice it to say that the key for GM (Ford or Chrysler) is to get off the mat and continue fighting. (If you go back far enough, every major conglomerate on the planet has done something you or I would consider disnhonorable...check your history.) ...You're making the mistake of looking through a rear-view mirror, rather than looking down the road. All of your points (and valid, they certainly are) have been made, with exhausting repetition. I'm not apologizing for anyone, just stating the facts, sir.

No, its just tired, intellectually dishonest and the latest in a long line of apologist nonsense. Like a wife defending the husband that abuses her, it rings false.They won this round. We lost. Time to move on to the next fight.

fleet is clearly up. Common sense would dictate that a withdrawal of the Detroit 3 would result in others filling the supply.I was actually fairly impressed with GM's monthlies...The new product (other than Saturn's, which I think may just be a matter of marketing) is moving and, hopefully, the old stuff will continue to hold its own.

Sour grapes. That's what it sounds like....IMO

Lotta bitterness flowing through this thread. Toyota is about to blow by Chrysler and, probably, topple Ford as #2 in this country. Why not just give credit where its due? I don't get how 'I haven't seen too many' is a valid counterpoint to what everyone here seems to feel are incredible #'s. Stop by a Toyota dealer and try to buy one of their recent intros....I'm fairly certain you'll see these figures are not only accurate, they're understandable. What people on this board fail to understand that MOST people do not want risk associated with their new car purchase. Toyota has been masterful in creating a quality reputation (deserved or not) that takes the worry out of the decision. You can't top that when MOST (not us) treat their cars as appliances.

I guess Toyota hasn't made their monthly payments to the "Media"? This story was on every major business segment I've seen in the last 2 days. Where are the conspiracy theorists now?

Can't argue its a good thing, although, generally, it's how a recall is handled, rather than the issue itself that dictates the consumer reaction.I'm not going to one-up you with details, but suffice it to say that a little intake manifold problem bedeviled a number of GM models for years, on an old engine that was certainly not being produced in a new factory. The point I've made (to near exhaustion on this site) is that toyota's (or any other competitors') failures does not 'fix' GM in any way. It's much more likely that other import manufacturers gain from Toyota's failures than GM does.

There was also a suspension issue which resulted in a DND, IIRC, but I'll concede the point.I was only trying to point out the difficulty in intro'ing new vehicles in new facilities completely defect free. As I stated above, greatness on a consistent basis is the ONLY way GM survives as a domestic producer. Count me out if we are going to blindly cheer as the Chinese build Buicks and the Koreans build Chevys. That's called a phyrric victory, in my book.

I'll pick up the challenge....Toyota's experiencing growing pains...so what? If we're going to be fair, shouldn't we be equally upset that GM's latest all new product built in an all new plant, the Lambdas, also had an issue in the first months? Goose meet the Gander. If being pro-GM's success means rooting for the competition to falter, then you're about 20 years late for that to work as a gameplan. Toyota has introed the RAV4, 2 new Scions, an LS460 and the FJ without incident....does that matter, too? The perception gap will remain until GM makes the quantum leap to making demonstrably superior products (you know 'em, they're the kind Honda and Toyota have produced on a fairly consistent basis for years---the ones that are eating GM, Ford and Chrysler's lunch). The Lambdas & the 900's are just a start...I'd be happy to report that the majority of GM's intro's are in the superior category. I just haven't seen 'em yet.

Poor 0-60, mediocre economy & a great price...how could they give it a rave review? GM took all of the stuff out that made the Aura sparkle (cool option combos & WC 6cyl. /6sp.) Remind me why this vehicle is necessary?

I'm flustered by the Maxx as well. The Opel/Vauhhall Signum (sp.?) was the equivalent product overseea and was also treated with a shrug by Hatch-happy Europeans. I think a swoopy hatch like the original VW Phaeton ('Concept D', IIRC)prototypes might work, rather than the awkward Chevy cues glued onto the Maxx. (2nd choice might be an 'Outback'type treatment?)

I'm not sure whether the idea is a good one or not. In the hands of experienced salespeople, I think its a positive....but it also might add one more stop to a shopper's list of 'must see's'. I would almost rather see an aggressive allowance for conquest trades...perhaps a dealer spiff of an extra grand or two if a Camry, Accord or Altima were coming in on trade? I would also be hesitant to put a competitor's product in my showroom when it's already difficult to decide which Chevy products should be excluded from the showroom in the first place.

How about that, common ground?

Finally, I at least got you to admit there might be an issue!Look, I'm driving around in the HHR and the stereo is awful. Did the last guy blow out the speakers? I don't know, I just know it sounds muddy, regardless of music style or talk. But that's a small issue compared to the other things that bug me about this particular product---not only are the touch and feel of materials mediocre, the whole product (despite Mr. Lutz' denials) is a blatant ripoff of the PT---and its not even demonstrably superior to that mediocre, 7 yr. old product! How cool would it have been to have a Cobalt-based small CUV?---the RAV4 has abandoned that market. Instead, we get uninspired rehash...the Malibu could have been much more like its euro cousins, instead we get a dumbed down version for our 'American' tastes. The Impala, while reliable, is a snooze on an old platform....how many more would Chevy sell if it was state of the art?...perhaps looking to the old LH's for inspiration, if they wanted to crib something from Chrysler. There's literally dozens of examples of GM completely missing the mark all over my showroom...it's depressing. It doesn't matter what the competition is doing if you're not going to make a concerted effort to keep up. Another pet peeve: Think of the Billions GM squandered on Fiat, Subaru, Isuzu & Saab. How many wonderful, modern, competitive platforms were completely washed out in that morass? How can Toyota engineer the Yaris for a global presence, yet the Corsa isn't here for 2 more model years? There's noone at GM who thought "Mmm, Mideast conflict might = oil supply issues" or "Jeez, China is consuming alot more autos, where are they gonna get the gas to power these millions of new vehicles?" These things keep me up at night, as with the long lead time autos require means that a vision must be in place to get from point A today to point B tomorrow. I agree that Lutz has upped the ante...and as a product Czar, he's doing the best he can....But, as he showed at DCX and, especially, Exide, he may not be a visionsary from an industry perspective. And I've never seem more corporate patience for more of a failure than Rick W. You and I do that poor a job, we get canned. This guy gets a bankruptcy proof golden parachute.