enzl

Ditto...couldn't have expressed it better myself.To me, GM needs to get these cars here ASAP. If the Aveo can be a Chevy, than the Holden Zetas could certainly be proud Pontiacs.... Keep in mind that most of Pontiac's lineup has been exciting in ad copy only for years. To argue that the GP or Bonneville were real sport sedans is laughable---these Zetas could give immediate credence to Pontiac's high performance ethos. If the GP/Bonneville/G6 are 'real' Pontiacs, then I can't wait to get the fake Holden Pontiacs...badge engineering works when noone in the market has ever seen the 'original' product. Technically, Toyota has badge-engineered a full line-up of Lexi & Scions...they're all badged (until recently) Toyota's everywhere in the World but here. People who stand on principle with this issue are not seeing the whole picture. A truly global manufacturer sells its product around the world. Seeing it as a US issue is backwards---remember, GM will one day (possible soon) be selling more product in China than in the US---here's hoping ALL of their output is Zeta-like.

I can't understand the grief GM could be getting for getting these Zeta boys here in all forms, as quickly as possible. At the end of the day, a Pontiac beak on a Commodore isn't the worst thing in the world. Anyone here who's complaining about any aspect of that plan is just being picky. I haven't read anywhere that the appearance of this 'G8' will affect or modify any other RWD plans, including a huge commitment in production & tooling in Oshawa. So, bring it on! Badge it a Saturn if the purists are so upset.

Key to this one is pricing, which I think killed the GTO...if its a $25k base sedan with 3/5 series performance, it'll rock. If, like the GTO, we only get $32k+ models, you'll see the same problem arise. IMO, the GTO appealed to the guys who were Pontiac diehards looking for a top of the line T/A replacement. Anyone looking for 'Formula' or base model Firebird replacements were completely excluded from the GTO. Great news that the Holden will be available for an '08 model year intro, although it sounds like it may be built, at least initially, elsewhere.

Back end is a ripoff of the Peugeot 407 SW...they could sue... http://www.drive.com.au/buy/new/car_featur...arSales:Peugeot

While I'm usually the first to jump into new product, I had, up until today, not had the pleasure (?) of tooling around in a new gen Camry... Severe dissapointment, bordering on real issues. The interior of this 4 cyl LE was, in a word, rentalcarolicious... Of note: Bad plastics, everywhere. Crooked fittings and moldings, everywhere. And worst, a weird seam where your hand naturally grabs the door pull. Felt unfinished and potentially harmful. Now, it looked OK, in a generic, modern way, but you can see where Toyota has cut corners. Not Nissan Altima bad, but dissappointing. Oh, did I mention the driving experience? Not really necessary. Exactly as expected. It was quiet and gave an illusion of quality that surely kills come test drive time. Gut reaction is the Fusion, 6 or Aura are more than competitive, back to back. The key is to get 'em into the dealerships, however. Not sure if that will happen anytime soon.

Lemme get this straight...Not only are Japanese car buyers Un-American, spineless wimps, they're also huge liars? Please explain why Chevy, Ford or Mopar fan would be less likely to lie when reporting information to CR... ...you are basically implying that a huge, multi-cultural, multi-socioeconomic conspiracy to keep Toyota's residual values up? It just doesn't pass the laugh test. Toyotas may not be as good as their press and US makes may not be as bad, but the logic being proposed in the above posting makes no sense.

Hate to see the bad review comments. It's a complimentary piece....does it need to be broken down into syllable by syllable analysis? 9-3 review right below it also was glowingly positive, even going so far as to prefer the Saab to the BMW 3.... Let's move on from the media bias mindset and produce product they can't disparage!

Skipped 1-3...so I'll take it.The problem with 06/07 is the skimpy CAR quotient....we'll have to see how that plays out. GMAC is still an enormous loss. It was an ATM GM can no longer run to when there's a tough run at the craps table. I'm an optimist, but there are clearly some dangers out there.

1. Wrong. If you're teetering on the edge, you only need a modest push. Seen employment numbers, new housing starts or consumer confidence numbers lately? Didn't think so.2. The 900 SUV's have 60 day + supplies and are having production curtailed already. The Pick-ups may be introduced with $3 gas or $4 gas...you're only one Middle-east flair-up from $4 gas. You wanna bank on Mideast stability? See #1 for futher details. 3. One word: Delphi. Not a done deal yet. Exact bailout figures depend partially on courts decision....Wanna bet on the lawyers helping GM? I'd rather depend upon Mideast peace. 4.Product: Good: Vette, GMT900's, Solstice & Sky---- & Bad: Torrent, G5, LaCrosse, 'Updated' Saabs, No Zetas until 08. I Said CONSISTENTLY good. 5. You missed the point: The money is gone in debacle (Fiat) & development costs. GMAC made a huge % of GM profit in the last 5 years! The family china is sold & the farm is mortgaged. Where do you go if the latest efforts fail?

Technically, they've stabilized...Too many X factors to call it a comeback...I'll give you a quick 5: 1. The Economy....slowing? 2. Gas Prices....could doom new 900 P/U 3. Striking Workers...not everyone has been paid off to go away 4. New Product....will it be consistently good? 5. GMAC...sale is not yet complete. I'm fairly certain the proceeds have been spent. Was it spent wisely? Otherwise, they've been looking better.

I just don't see how handing the reigns over to another lifer will really matter at this point. The product execution must be nearly perfect, but at least they appear to have some answers to good questions. I didn't like the Ghosn push, and change for the sake of change at this point, when most of the heavy lifting has already been done, is inadvisable. I'd sooner see them slowly edge Wags out with another outsider product guy....give 'em a year's rope, then hang him with it. The 07/08 lineup is more fully Lutz and seems to be where the last stand will be made, if needed. They fold or merge at that time, regardless of captain, if things continue to deteriorate.

Keep in mind, US Taxes are half or less on average, so I'll express an opposite, yet plausible example:Same scenario, but that Cavalier sits on my lot, where I borrowed $ at 6% plus fees...If it sits for 6 months, I lose 3% of its value to finance charges and another $500-1000 from BOOK (ie the amount a bank will loan me to sell that car). Net-Net: Upside down consumer (the proportion is staggering, here in the states) cannot be bought. I lose the sale. That same Toyota will sell within a month of hitting our 'big' used lot. It'll be financed, I'll get a couple of points on a much higher dollar figure, and everybody's happy. (Toyota dealers have been scouring the ad pages. Have you guys? --"Dealers scramble for Used Toyotas":, see AN 8-26-06)

Delusional, but accurate.B-man- the product looks like its getting there, better warm up the VIN etches and Service Agreements!

I'm not so sure it matters how dull this car is. The previous gen LS was never a style statement & this one isn't either. Not only will each one sell, it's just an hors d'ovre for the forthcoming supercar. Now if a Lexus supercar gets this tepid a review, then I'd be concerned if I were them.

That's the part of it that bothered me the most. FWIW, the law insists that Officers, Directors & Management of a Public Company have a fiduciary duty to act in accordance with the co.'s best interests...I can't see how giving away product plans or strategy is wise in a market where your competitors can move quicker than you can.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2164 Farago takes a PR flack's words and twists them into another invective-filled scree... Is it me, or has Farago become even more hateful as GM's ducks have begun to fall into a row? Sajeev, your thoughts?

*Until you go to a dealer that exists in the real world. Residuals are definitely on the way up for GM. The problem is that the average used Honda or Toyota sells for more once it's on the lot and generally sells very quickly. (Toyota dealers have been forced to scan the papers for individuals selling certifiable (low mileage) used Toyotas for inventory!)

My 'vested' interest is in seeing GM do well. Our biggest store by volume (5X) is a Chevy store. GM needs to have its house in order...and I've mentioned that things look better in a number of other threads....now, if you, or anyone else wants to help me change my mind, I have politely suggested using better fact, logic and defensible 'opinion'.I'm just shocked at the lengths people will stretch logic to 'nitpick' Toyota's sales in a record month.

Like every dealer doesn't bend their customers over. That loss is the result of poor negotiating and a clear ignorance of the sales process.We trade low and sell as high as possible, with as much aftermarket as the customer will bear. It's the same everywhere. Perhaps you should have gone with your 'friend' so he wouldn't get gipped.... I love how these anecdotes are supposed to sway opinion. Your stupid friend gets jobbed an now that 's why the CRV sux. That's not just stupid, its illogical as an argument. I never defended the CRV's look (which is ugly or boring, depending upon the angle)---but your contrary points are pointless.

Let's review: Some people will buy it because of the H, no doubt. Others will buy it because: 1. If history is any judge, it'll be more reliable than almost any alternative (please don't bother comparing it's history to the Vue or Nox, its embarassing) 2. It's not as large as the updated RAV4...(Lots of our Toyota customers complain that the RAV has gotten to big and too expensive) 3. It drives like a car...a small, well mannered Japanese car. 4. They're downsizing from their last gen beheamoth SUV and already own an Accord or another of Honda's sterling products. 22mpg city will look like a dream when they're currently averaging 12. 5. The presentation on the showroom floor is superior. Panel fits, interior plastics and the general interface will look right. Not misfitting or misguided or tacky....(For the former, I'll reference any current DCX little x-over interior tupperware, for the latter, how about that pl-wood in the Vue's new interior. Awful.) 6. Odds are their dealer will still be there next year. 7. They could sell/trade it in in the next few years and not take a bath. That's off the top...I'm pretty sure that if it was my $25k, I'd have the clarity to come up with a couple more....

This entire post is either grossly inaccurate or delusional......and, I hope the next time you utter the word 'Camlee' in public a little skinny Japanese woman roundhouse kicks you in the face. You should be ashamed for being such an ignorant f*&^, but I suspect from your writing you'll never be smart enough to realize it. Oh...and they'll sell every CRV they produce, ugly ass grill & suspect gas mileage notwithstanding....(Maybe the next gen GM x-overs will get an interior with comparable plastics next time, huh?)

Mmmm. Soft market and Toyota's up, big. Time for all the kool-aiders to try and bust that bubble! Your arguments might be taken seriously elsewhere if you just left it alone....

Agreed. But the beauty of being GM is that there are literally dozens of potential platforms lying around......I find it hard to believe that the epsilon couldn't have had a Buick LaCrosse developed or that the Sigma couldn't have had just enough cost taken out to justify a RWD Buick of some kind... The proper planning could have meant a Camaro years ago, with a Buick coupe counterpart and a Pontiac Firebird/TA/GTO....It just wasn't done. What's worse is the Fiat/Saab/Isuzu/Subaru (take your pick) fiasco drained $ and attention that should have been lasered in on product. GM is clearly capable of world class, value product. It just seems like they have Corporate ADD.

You missed the operative word: ALTERNATIVE Definition: "employing or following nontraditional or unconventional ideas, methods, etc.; existing outside the establishment" as per dictionary.com You don't need to ape the european models....you need to identify core competancies and create new ways of exploiting them. As I said above, its same old GM committee think that apears in both the LaCrosse and Lucerne. That ain't going to get it done. It's not getting it done. LaCrosse is off 20% in the 2nd model year of its existence! (And GM is running 30% fleet, so its actually even worse than that from a retail perspective.)

I don't know who is on what, nor do I care what they wore, but I can tell you for certain that it's been GM (&Ford)'s turn in the barrel lately!That media...giving out roofies and cheap beer! How dare them lure innocent consumers into such hellish torture chambers.