enzl

Or, it truly is an average auto, converted into a slightly flexible, albeit useful & handsome, hardtop 'vert....Thus a little disappointing, just like its sister Epsilon-mates....EpII can't get here fast enough!

Actually, I think Renault has shown the proper sensitivity to Nissan's past & zeroed in on synergistic strengths...If there's room in Nissan's portfolio for a historically proper Z car & GTR, GM's Camaro should be an easy do.....Other than the very recent stumble, Nissan is on a roll, in case anyone hasn't noticed...

As usual, my point has been missed. Just stating that there's a deep irony that appears to be lost on others here. The negative press may very well be deserved and not as distorted as some here claim, but I've already mentioned that in other, more appropriate threads. Blaming others is a uniquely American answer to all problems.... Personally, I don't find any of the 'fan sites' interesting enough to stick around and read consistently. It's a tribute to C&G that it remains interesting to a non-fan....I just think the recall threads are tired & not really funny at their core, but that's just me.

This thread, absolutely...in general, however, the sheep love to cite these gaffes as an indicator that the Japanese are decaying and GM's got a 50% share around the corner....that's my only point...I find it interesting that people don't see the profound irony and illogic to these types of postings, as these are the same people crying Media Bias all the time....that's what's amusing to me!

That's funny, no doubt.I'm just shocked that most of the posters don't see the deep irony in picking on other's recalls...just amazed. There's absolutely no room for critical self-analysis amongst some of the GM fanbase....Unfortunately, these are the people GM seems to be listening to...scary.

The timing regarding the 'turnaround' plan (as it is generously called...its really just an attrition program, but I digress) started years ago under LUTZ.....this means somebody changed their minds regarding the placement of THIS product (G5), after the Pontiac dealer body screamed bloody murder... Your faith is admirable, your reasoning is flawed. This was a step backwards decision that GM has consistently shown when trying to 'get things right.' We were promised NO badge jobs. 2 Pontiacs in the last year have proven that promise false... If the image of GM is going to change, a line in the sand must be drawn...Pontiac, as a full line brand, does not exist anymore...its going to be P-B-GMC from now on (supposedly). I would have sooner wanted them to bring in a europe only car like the Tigra Twin Top....an arrowhead would have fit in the center of that grill as well....and the hardtop 2 seater would have been an interesting counterpoint to the Solstice & G6 'vert currently on the 'Excitement division''s showroom floors.

On what are you basing your faith??They've been feeding us the same BS since they held 40+% of the market. The G5 is exactly what GM doesn't need right now....Pontiac dealers might need it, but for GM its just evidence of the SOS...

It's not effective as an argument....It's like a schoolchild's 'he hit me first' or 'they called me a bad name'.BTW, it's a bed they made for themselves long ago...now they want redemption because they're 'back' making excellent product. It just doesn't work that way....Perception always lags reality. Us pointing out these recalls just makes it look petty. IMO, of course. Want evidence that its not just the 'press' that feels that way? Check out this article and survey in Detroit News, their hometown paper.... http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A.../606280404/1148

Rhetorical question: Why do we celebrate competitors recalls and get so pissed when Gm's dirty laundry gets aired? It really sounds like sour grapes....so F'in' what that half a million Honda's got recalls.Wow, Newflash...Honda's made by humans too! Trashing others doesn't help support the theory that GM builds as good or better product. It only serves to underline that we're trying to drag them into the gutter with GM...and why would you want that?

Ist-I agree....It's just the first few suckers paid $10k over and everyone else waitied 6 months to buy theirs at 25-30K2nd- T/A pricing...I didn't state they were in the same market, but I'll take that point on as well...although I'm not sure how you can differentiate between a powerful RWD 2+2 and, lo and behold, a powerful, RWD 2+2...I mean, what other cars were in Pontiac's (or Buick's or GMC's) showrooms that was the substitute/replacement for the T/A...oh, yes, um....NONE. 3rd-Not questioning its VALUE (look at my posting again, I call it a worthwhile vehicle)...I questioned the way it was marketed and priced...I would have at least offered a decontented vehicle and rushed the appearance package as well 4th- It was a failure as a HALO vehicle. You're correct that they never expectedto import more than 18k/yr., however, it produced little showroom traffic and little buzz (I should know, we have a Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer next door...it was a morgue)...Look at the Solstice (a limited -20k/yr. build vehicle that is packing showrooms and creating waiting lists...GM was offering $4-6k dealer spiffs on the GTO after 10 months on the market...that how you don't do it. GTO sold out because of its instrinsic goodness, but not without major missteps along the way. I made a point of saying that above....

You're 100% correct about the website...I know the 2005 model year had a 3.8/4A pairing for the 5 seat version...they may have cut that model along with production volume to simplify a low demand product. Lot's of Pacifica's on the road. They've always needed more power, IMO.

Base model is running a minivan engine. The 5 pass cloth interior models that came after initial intro (of loaded 6 pass.).

I've gotta see this one live... The Charger never made sense to me in pix. It has a presence in certain color/wheel combos that really works. we'll see about this one...I'm not ready to write it off, yet.

At $25-30k, it would have sold out...following transaction prices for the defunct T/A...and that's where your market lies.Keep in mind that the first motorheads looking to buy were confronted with ADM's in the thousands, bringing the payments to 3 series territory...by the time sanity returned, there were fewer initial sales than expected. A year-old at $22k is even more attractive. I'm not attacking the GTO- superb in many ways- I'm disturbed by the poor effort to market & price it correctly. I'm looking forward to the Zetas, but I think GM is again playing catch-up. The LY's will be in 2nd gen. format and DCX is threatening to use the LY tech in Mercs. I'm fairly certain it'll be an improved product at that time.

I was refering to 'image'..(never understood how the Fusion became a racecar...)but the 'racecar' in Ford's lineup is the Stang & the Camaro was Chevy's, as a midmarket aspirational product...The midmarket has been squeeezed so badly that GM has been hesitant to reinvest.

1st- GTO's 'failure' was that it was too expensive...and based on its performance figures, it should have been an easy sellout.....2nd-Vette bases at $44k- a $40k Camaro will fail. A $25k Camaro V8 will be a huge success 3rd-Just one man's opinion, so, who cares? I think we get blinded here by passion....again, I'd love to survey exactly what % of this GM site's users WILL buy a Camaro....I think 10% would honestly respond 'Yes', and only some of those actually will.

I think he's somewhat humerously expressing what GM management had concerns about and most of the general public think about a future Camaro anyway: A new Camaro will (again) be a response to the Mustang's success. While all of us enthusiasts root for its return, I think the 'redneck/NASCAR/mullet' image of the previous few generations may dampen sales figures....a continuing gas crisis or economic downturn may result in its actual failure, from an economic perspective. GM might be better served investing in a 300,000/year kick-ass Malibu or crossover...I think many here have been blinded by their passion for GM and the Camaro specifically....I'm wondering how many of us here would or could buy a new Camaro when it comes out....

So we agree, right?The DOD may have a legitimate argument, in that some tech is not available or produced in the US and must be purchased from other sources...I'm assuming that these technologies are for our benefit??

So, skilled jobs like engineering should stay and deep blue collar shouldn't?How do we work that one out? Where's the dividing line? 2 yr. college or 4 yr. degree? Enforce it by having the gov't read each corporate e-mail??? It's a never ending problem that has gone on for years...I personally think you've got to discourage all outsourcing or none...if its only low skill than you're hurting the very people that need the jobs most.... Free trade has always been a myth. The US used to have a huge advantage and we've squandered it with corporate fat-cat payoffs and convenient compromises....let's not blame those that build a better mousetrap

The forTwo isn't the issue....its the other products and their development costs that have hamstrung the effort. Additionally, the enormous start-up costs and some silly marketing efforts have also made the pricing out of whack with the original mission.If you live in a city where parking and traffic are an issue, you immediately see a place and time for these vehicles. My reply responded to the NY'er quip, not the aesthetic appeal of the car itself, which, while ugly, is no worse than the Aztek and, functionally, at least has an excuse for its odd proportions and cartoonish appearance.

Or a car for City Dwellers that a hick wouldn't recognize as a 'real' car.It's got 4 wheels and it has to pass the same (or more stringent) regs as a Suburban. Why is more choice bad? Oh, it's not a GM product, so it must suck. You guys would be licking its tailpipe if it had a little silver GM badge on it. At least be logically consistent.

You wanna build stuff in crummy conditions for low pay? No. Want your kids to? Definitely not. We're a service economy now...that means our services are sold the world over, and.... US company's crap built in China and elsewhere are sold everywhere too!! You can't resolve it with tariffs...the world is a Gordian Knot of interests and cannot be unwound. We import more US Branded goods than any other single country's manufactured product, so be careful what you wish for. And, BTW, China wasn't an enemy in WW2..they were subjugated and slaughtered by the Japanese....Maybe a little history lesson will improve your knowledge of the current events. Some posters are so desperate to blame other people for our problems that its got to be a cry for help.... Let's help get the General back on track, not xenophobically hurl lame-ass insults at others who take advantage of a system the US basically created and uses to its advantage in many ways....

Yes.My bad. I just Googled it. '08 Model Year is when changes take place. I could have sworn I remember the old test numbers being downgraded by some percentage.

I guess Toyota didn't make their monthly 'donation'?

EPA changed the criteria for testing in the last few years. Real world results should be the same.