BMW Bringing Back Diesels

Very Cool, glad to see more diesels, but I do wonder about something. If anyone can offer their thoughts on the following question,

If you do not refill the urea-based catalyst system, does the car still run? Does it run rough or have any negative affects other than just not being able to inject the pee juice to reduce certain particles in the exhaust?

I know more and more states are getting rid of their emissions testing and Washington is no different with 2015 the end year for it due to how clean the current crop of cars run. Nice to reduce gov waste, but if there is no emissions testing, how will they make sure the diesels stay clean? If the car will run just fine with no Pee Juice in the system, then I do not see people paying the crazy amounts they want for this blue juice to keep the exhaust clean.

Thoughts?

On the Duramax trucks, don't they have a similar system? I believe it puts the truck in limp mode before shutting it down if it is not refilled. That's what I heard.

These new BMW diesels sound sweet, except for the mandatory autotragic transmission. Not sure if it is for certification purposes, or torque specs.

On the Duramax trucks, don't they have a similar system? I believe it puts the truck in limp mode before shutting it down if it is not refilled. That's what I heard.

These new BMW diesels sound sweet, except for the mandatory autotragic transmission. Not sure if it is for certification purposes, or torque specs.

Certification purposes. A vehicle introduced in US in different powertrain must be tested for safety standards. So a 330i automatic and manual transmission vehicles should be tested individually not lumped together. Given how pathetic manual transmission rate is in this country, BMW is realizing it is not worth keeping its ultimate driving machine status anymore.

Look at X1 and X3, both are offered with manual transmissions outside this country, not here.

On the Duramax trucks, don't they have a similar system? I believe it puts the truck in limp mode before shutting it down if it is not refilled. That's what I heard.

These new BMW diesels sound sweet, except for the mandatory autotragic transmission. Not sure if it is for certification purposes, or torque specs.

Thanks Ocnblu, I did not think about being put into a limp mode home state. With that I researched limp mode diesel state and found this nice write up on the GM duramax:

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/chevy/1003dp_2011_lml_duramax_diesel_engine/viewall.html

Plus found this on a diesel blog, very cool info, but it looks like cost is going up for people running diesel.

Chrysler Previews NOx Reduction Solutions for 2010

...There are three ways to lower NOx emissions in diesels: The first is exhaust gas recirculation. EGR recirculates a portion of the engine's exhaust back into the engine at a lower temperature. The cooled gases have a higher heat capacity and contain less oxygen than air, lowering combustion temperatures and reducing the formation of NOx. EGR is prevalent in today’s clean diesel engines to reduce NOx, but it’s not efficient enough in current form to meet 2010 emissions levels.

Navistar is the only diesel engine manufacturer that says it will use in-cylinder EGR only to reduce NOx next year, but it will be limited to large over-the-road truck applications and not HD pickups and chassis cabs.

The second way is the use of EGR plus a special “adsorber” catalyst material to soak up and break down remaining NOx molecules before they leave the tailpipe. Chrysler is the only heavy-duty pickup manufacturer in the segment to use this approach in its Dodge Ram 2500 and 3500 trucks. The current 2007-09 6.7-liter Cummins six-cylinder diesel powertrain reached 2010 NOx emissions requirements three years early; it will carryover into 2010 and beyond without change in these models while Ford and GM are expected to update their next-generation diesel engines for 2010 using the last technology, below.

The third, and newest, approach is selective catalytic reduction using urea DEF. The urea-based solution (32.5 percent industrial urea and 67.5 percent deionized water) is held in a separate storage tank and injected as a fine mist into the hot exhaust gases. The heat turns the urea into ammonia that - when combined with a special catalytic converter - breaks down the NOx into harmless nitrogen gas and water vapor.

Like Ford and GM, Chrysler will use diesel exhaust fluid to scrub NOx from the exhaust but only in its new 2010 Dodge Ram 3500, 4500 and 5500 commercial Chassis Cabs.

The Dodge Ram Chassis Cabs use the same Cummins 6.7-liter diesel as the 2500 and 3500 pickups.

You might be wondering why Chrysler is using a NOx adsorber on its HD pickups and urea SCR on its Chassis Cabs. It’s because the NOx adsorber depends on rare earth metals. Until recently, the prices of these metals had been sky high. Urea DEF is much cheaper than rhodium or palladium. The drawback against urea though is it requires periodic maintenance and driver action.

For demonstration purposes, Chrysler had a specially labeled Ram Chassis Cab on the floor at the 2009 Work Truck Show in Chicago to show off its new urea SCR components.

“The 2010 Ram Chassis Cabs start with an eight-gallon tank to hold urea,” said Kevin Mets, senior development manager for Dodge trucks. “The eight gallons gives us a good range [approximately 4,000 miles] even though the entire package including the DEF fluid weighs about 200 pounds. We don’t rob as much payload capacity as a tank that, say, has a capacity of 16 gallons.”

DEF is expected to cost about $2.75 a gallon when pumped at truck stops and other retailers, according to the North American SCR Stakeholders Group, an ad-hoc industry alliance of truck and engine manufacturers, regulatory agencies and associations, and DEF infrastructure partners and suppliers. It will be packaged in many ways including 2.5 gallon jugs, bulk storage and DEF dispensing units...

So, lets see... Using urea injection to meet the 2010 emissions regs. adds roughly a 200 lb. weight penalty,the requirement to manually fill the urea fluid tank every 4,000 miles at a cost of at least $22. That adds up to about $550 per 100,000 miles just to refill the urea tank.

Hmmmm... I wondered how much extra the rare earth metals used in the other method would add to the cost. So I decided to compare the cost of the 6.7L Cummins diesel engine in a new Dodge pickup (which according to the article above, already meets the 2010 emissions regs. without urea injection) to the cost of an LMM in a new Silverado. Here's are those prices according to Edmunds.com (MSRP / invoice):

LMM Duramax 6.6L Turbodiesel V8 Engine: $7,195 / $5,972

MW7 Allison 6-Speed Automatic Transmission: $1,200 / $996

LMM Duramax 6.6L & MW7 Allison 6-Speed trans: $8,395 / $6,968

________________________________________

2EA ST Quick Order Package 2EA: $4,930 / $4,338

6.7L Cummins inline 6-cyl. diesel engine only

(Includes vehicle with standard equipment, 6.7L Cummins turbodiesel inline 6-cylinder engine with 350 hp @ 3013 rpm and 610 lb.-ft. of torque @ 1400 rpm, 6-speed manual transmission, mini-floor console, 3.42 axle ratio, 11.50 rear axle, 750 amp maintenance free battery, current generation engine controller, diesel exhaust brake, electronically controlled throttle, GVWR of 9000 lbs., overhead console with trip computer and electronic vehicle information center, tow hooks, 5.5 additional gallons of diesel, hood insulation, premium body insulation, BLUETEC Diesel System and BLUETEC badge.)

2FA ST Quick Order Package 2FA: $6,505 / $5,724

6.7L Cummins inline 6-cyl. diesel engine & 6-speed auto. trans.

(Includes vehicle with standard equipment, 6-speed automatic transmission, 6.7L Cummins turbodiesel inline 6-cylinder engine with 350 hp @ 3013 rpm and 650 lb.-ft. of torque @ 1500 rpm, mini-floor console, 3.42 axle ratio, 750 amp maintenance free battery, current generation engine controller, diesel exhaust brake, electronically controlled throttle, GVWR of 9000 lbs., overhead console with trip computer and electronic vehicle information center, tow hooks, 5.5 additional gallons of diesel, hood insulation, premium body insulation, BLUETEC Diesel System and BLUETEC badge.)

________________________________________

It doesn't appear that Dodge is having to charge a premium for their diesel engines to meet the 2010 regs. without urea, since they are currently about ($1,900 / $1,200) less than GM, and I assume GM will have to raise prices even higher to pay for all the extra hardware to meet the 2010 regs.

According to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec

the SCR system Chrysler has now apparently does not meet the California emissions standards (also adopted by 4 other states). To do that they apparently may have to use AdBlue, which is urea injection. This claims that the current SCR system has the "potential" to meet the regs. in all 50 states: although it seems to imply that ammonia is injected into the exhaust. But I don't think ANY current Chrysler diesels have a urea tank, do they?

Read here that Mercedes got the EPA to sign off on 20 starts when Urea is empty before the car shuts down till Urea is refilled.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1016299_diesel-urea-injection-fact-and-fiction

Interesting, I will be watching BMW with interest to see how they do it also.

maybe if you pee in the urea tank it will work

Johnson Matthey is the only company as far as I know that makes the palladium based catalysts currently used for diesel particulate emissions. The company has extensive relationship with Cummins (Chrysler) and GE.

GM and Ford realised with the price of palladium rising not to invest into the technology with one manufacturer and shifted to urea. The decision is more political than efficient system in use.

I like the sound of this. The 4-cylinder should post a huge mpg number and the inline six will produce monster torque. And hopefully this prompts Cadillac to offer a diesel also, especially with Mercedes offering some more diesels now.

U.S. Golf and Jetta TDIs are 50-state compliant and don't require urea. They utilize a NOx storage catalyst that temporarily stores the emissions, until they can be burned off during one of the engine cycles.

But the downside to that is reduced efficiency. Passat TDI uses AdBlue, which allows it to have even lower NOx and better MPG, despite being a heavier vehicle.

You can buy generic diesel exhaust fluid and refilling it isn't much worse than, say, washer fluid.

As diesels continue to become more prevalent, the jugs of diesel engine exhaust fluid (asI've already seen them marketed) will be as common as bottles of washer fluid.

going to fleet farm, MA PICK UP A BOTTLE OF UREA!

i actually hope Cadillac doesn't do diesel. they need to join the ranks of the euro turbo crowd first....i.e. Audi has a legacy of well over a decade now of great mainstream turbo engines.