Build to Order will be easier on BEV than ICE.  Now if only Ford can build cheaper BEVs that cost less than $20K. . . . . 🥺

Custom-ordered vehicles have been a thing since Day 1. 

The huge associated issue always has been the wait time - in a day of people paying extra to get their dog treats and paper towels within 24 hrs... one wonders how making a hard shift toward making folk wait 3-5 months (or longer) to get a vehicle will pan out.

Another couple of factors are ~ 
• most buyers aren't as picky about getting a very specifically outfitted vehicle. Some are, most are not. As vehicles continue to homogenize and draw close to a median-build, this factor will increase.
• some folk need a vehicle immediately when theirs melts down. Lower vehicle inventories decrease choices.
• you'll pay more to custom-order because the dealers only hold the vehicle for a day off-truck, vs. discounting a vehicle that does the job but has been on-lot for 6 months. Unless direct-sales takes off, there is still the franchisee to deal with.
• Unions / assembly plants may well see increased downtime if their product orders slow. Franchised dealer inventory is a 'flex point' that allows more stable production at the OEM end.

I understand standing inventory has at times been problematic, and OEMs may well like to build more custom orders; - if pick ups are any indication- as people tend to spend a little more under that circumstance. It MAY benefit them... tho it does run counter to planning allocations of the same-vehicle on a given line.

A balance of the two (custom & spec-built) will continue largely as it has.

ideally, automakers should be geared up for fast build to order, but dealers and the legally protected existing franchise system, and hard sales model will still favor a large number of 'pre-stocked' inventory units.  Dealers like fast turning inventory and in many cases believe that well stocked inventory helps to satisfy buyer impulse.  

The ultimate solution to this is very antithetical to what GM does.  GM packages their models terribly, so many configurations.  They leave off desirable equipment on higher packages and so the buyer has to hunt to find a theoretically loaded model that may have something other mfrs already have built into their streamlined packages by habit.

If the bulk of the units sold had more streamlined packages like say Honda does, and then build to order, if fast responding, could build the 'non-packaged' unit in a couple weeks, I think we could satisfy the need for the dealer to make the sale on the spot when you've snagged the buyer and their credit is ripe and 'they want it that day'.  Many of the rest of the buyers simply don't have patience or are smart enough to dissect all the different ways the vehicles available are equipped.  It's just they arrived at a point in their life that they decided they would buy a new car and they are so wrapped up in the thrill of buying new that they gloss over the exact details of it.  They want little standing in the way of the point in time euphoria of signing the papers and driving off without plates on their car.  So dealers just want a bunch of stuff on the lot ready to go to give the illusion of choice.  That's why these last few months have been sucky for dealers because they don't know where their product is coming from.

I would have loved to have bought my Buick 'build to order' then I wouldn't have had to hunt so hard for the red with tan interior but having moonroof and nav and upgraded sound I wanted (and didn't end up getting anyways).  But I was more picky then most buyers.  Dealer inventory can satisfy the non picky buyers, and build to order (fast) could fill in the gaps for those that are picky....IF THEY PLEDGE TO DO IT FAST.

I suspect this is just Ford PR hogwash for the time being to try to appeal to Tesla fans who like to buy on the net.  I would love to buy the car on the net exactly to my specs but the dealer laws require me to get it from a dealer, and that means dickering on where to get the best price.  If I can get the best deal buying it online direct, I am good with that but I do want to test drive a similar car and I want the dealer there to service my car as well.

On 8/7/2021 at 1:56 PM, regfootball said:

ideally, automakers should be geared up for fast build to order, but dealers and the legally protected existing franchise system, and hard sales model will still favor a large number of 'pre-stocked' inventory units.  Dealers like fast turning inventory and in many cases believe that well stocked inventory helps to satisfy buyer impulse.  

The ultimate solution to this is very antithetical to what GM does.  GM packages their models terribly, so many configurations.  They leave off desirable equipment on higher packages and so the buyer has to hunt to find a theoretically loaded model that may have something other mfrs already have built into their streamlined packages by habit.

If the bulk of the units sold had more streamlined packages like say Honda does, and then build to order, if fast responding, could build the 'non-packaged' unit in a couple weeks, I think we could satisfy the need for the dealer to make the sale on the spot when you've snagged the buyer and their credit is ripe and 'they want it that day'.  Many of the rest of the buyers simply don't have patience or are smart enough to dissect all the different ways the vehicles available are equipped.  It's just they arrived at a point in their life that they decided they would buy a new car and they are so wrapped up in the thrill of buying new that they gloss over the exact details of it.  They want little standing in the way of the point in time euphoria of signing the papers and driving off without plates on their car.  So dealers just want a bunch of stuff on the lot ready to go to give the illusion of choice.  That's why these last few months have been sucky for dealers because they don't know where their product is coming from.

I would have loved to have bought my Buick 'build to order' then I wouldn't have had to hunt so hard for the red with tan interior but having moonroof and nav and upgraded sound I wanted (and didn't end up getting anyways).  But I was more picky then most buyers.  Dealer inventory can satisfy the non picky buyers, and build to order (fast) could fill in the gaps for those that are picky....IF THEY PLEDGE TO DO IT FAST.

I suspect this is just Ford PR hogwash for the time being to try to appeal to Tesla fans who like to buy on the net.  I would love to buy the car on the net exactly to my specs but the dealer laws require me to get it from a dealer, and that means dickering on where to get the best price.  If I can get the best deal buying it online direct, I am good with that but I do want to test drive a similar car and I want the dealer there to service my car as well.

In an ideal world, states would never have passed franchise laws in the first place (or at least repeal all of them).

As for FORD vs Tesla, at least FORD is competing against Tesla.  GM is not doing it.  At least FORD vehicles have far fewer car fires per 1000 cars sold than Tesla.

Build to order would be great if they can deliver within 72 hours.  Then again, GM would have to build them here (in the USA) since bringing product from China takes at least three weeks to get to the port of Long Beach or Los Angeles.

In general, GM needs fewer trim levels and a better equipped base model, just like Lexus and Acura.

1 minute ago, riviera74 said:

In an ideal world, states would never have passed franchise laws in the first place (or at least repeal all of them).

As for FORD vs Tesla, at least FORD is competing against Tesla.  GM is not doing it.  At least FORD vehicles have far fewer car fires per 1000 cars sold than Tesla.

Build to order would be great if they can deliver within 72 hours.  Then again, GM would have to build them here (in the USA) since bringing product from China takes at least three weeks to get to the port of Long Beach or Los Angeles.

 

In general, GM needs fewer trim levels and a better equipped base model, just like Lexus and Acura.

agree on GM not competing.  Pretty much in anything.  They are just sitting there, prop Mary, waiting to be told by the govt what to do.  GM has no interest in serving a competitive market anymore.  

Also agree on fewer trim levels and better equipped base models.  They re getting rid of the silly "L" trim on some models.

BUT BUT GM HAS AN EV EVERYONE WANTS!!!!

Yeah, the Bolt, GM already proved people wouldn't rush to by the Volt as it was too small.  Same thing with the Bolt.  Bolt and volt were good cars but GM pats itself on the back for making another Bolt barely any different from the original Bolt and the customers who want a vehicle of a decent size for useful everyday family transportation with room and space.....and GM fails to get a clue.

GM is all about PR.  All GM's EV's out or in the hopper are press release cars.  GM is too much of a pussy to have put out something that can go neck and neck with a Model S or Model 3, and they have the capabilities to do it but they have no desire to compete on a business level or innovate anymore.  GM could easily build a Model 3 or S or Mach E competitor, have had several years to do it.  Incompetence of bringing new ideas to market.  At least when Bob Lutz was there he stirred product interest.  I guess DeNyscchen (sp) knew what he was doing when he left the dumpster fire.

4 minutes ago, regfootball said:

agree on GM not competing.  Pretty much in anything.  They are just sitting there, prop Mary, waiting to be told by the govt what to do.  GM has no interest in serving a competitive market anymore.  

Also agree on fewer trim levels and better equipped base models.  They re getting rid of the silly "L" trim on some models.

BUT BUT GM HAS AN EV EVERYONE WANTS!!!!

Yeah, the Bolt, GM already proved people wouldn't rush to by the Volt as it was too small.  Same thing with the Bolt.  Bolt and volt were good cars but GM pats itself on the back for making another Bolt barely any different from the original Bolt and the customers who want a vehicle of a decent size for useful everyday family transportation with room and space.....and GM fails to get a clue.

GM is all about PR.  All GM's EV's out or in the hopper are press release cars.  GM is too much of a pussy to have put out something that can go neck and neck with a Model S or Model 3, and they have the capabilities to do it but they have no desire to compete on a business level or innovate anymore.  GM could easily build a Model 3 or S or Mach E competitor, have had several years to do it.  Incompetence of bringing new ideas to market.  At least when Bob Lutz was there he stirred product interest.  I guess DeNyscchen (sp) knew what he was doing when he left the dumpster fire.

GM needs car people to run GM, at all levels of management.  The money types need to be fired, yesterday.  GM needs great product, not PR.  PR and Narratives are all BS if the products are mediocre at best.  GM needs a hungry 35-year-old who sees a somewhat broken firm and sees a bright future.  After all these years, there is STILL no substitute for good corporate culture and great leadership.

On 8/7/2021 at 1:56 PM, regfootball said:

I would love to buy the car on the net exactly to my specs but the dealer laws require me to get it from a dealer, and that means dickering on where to get the best price.

Feel free to not dicker at the dealer and pay full sticker price, just like at the Tesla kiosk! 😆

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Build to order would be great if they can deliver within 72 hours.

That's not remotely possible anywhere in the world / time.

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

GM is all about PR.  All GM's EV's out or in the hopper are press release cars.

Tesla LITERALLY is THE PR machine. No advertising; everything hashed out via social media outlets / the press.
So is that good or is that bad?

2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

GM needs car people to run GM, at all levels of management.  The money types need to be fired, yesterday. 

Well...GM has engineers at the top...

Mary T Barra is an engineer. An electrical engineer.  Bachelor of Science. She also has a Masters in Business Administration.

Mark Reuss has a Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. He too, has a Masters in Business Administration and Management. 

2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

The money types need to be fired, yesterday.

OK...technically, Reuss and Barra are kinda the money types, but you kinda need a good balance of engineers and money types to make a SUCESSFUL business run and be...successful.    

Musk just told us, that if the Cybertruck be built right now, it would have to b3 sold at 1 million plus dollars.

THIS is the kind of leader you want gm to have?

You see, its like Supercruise.   Shyte, it took gm an ETERNITY to offer a thing like that. Adaptive cruise control and gm didnt even have that...   All of us were probably bitchin' about gm not having smart technologies like these. Eurosnobs I just KNOW were making of gm not having such systems.  

Tesla autopilot this and Tesla autopilot that is ALL we hear.  Tesla is such a TECH company is the second thing we hear. Yet we all know how Tesla's autopilot really is in REAL life.

But...now that gm has given us Supercruise, do we really want to say anything negative about it?  

(If one REALLY IS a car guy, NONE of these systems should be wanted by a car crazy guy/gal) 

In other words, gm took their time and gave us a GREAT product/system. A GREAT change doncha think since what we are usually expecting of a malaise era gm and for the next 20 year after the malaise era...

Or do you want gm to switch to EVs right away and risk:

1. LOW to NO SALES because the market actually says LOW to NO sales...

2. risk botching the technology in rushing the technology...  

Yeah...this HAS happened BEFORE at gm.  When gm went ALL FWD in the 1980s, it switched overnight. But the GM10 platform, the W-Body, was botched botched botched.  The cars WERE successful, the launch wasnt. gm was losing money on them for quite awhile.  And there WERE quality issues with them as well...

THIS is the gm you want?

But lets look at the portfolio...

A mid-engine sports car that will have many trims aiming to please the car guy of any level. 

The Malibu and Impala are dead, but this is still soldiering on.   And guess what?  So called enthusiasts are ignoring it again...

The looks?   Its a good looking vehicle...  I dont personally like it, but my reasons are totally NOT about its looks per se...  

The interior?    Sure, its a little tight and the windows are small...but its a FANTSTIC sports car. The best the market it competes in has EVER seen in history.  

But...low and behold, even the industry's first of its kind and the leader most years, the Mustang, has had ITS sales collapse.  The Challenger? Yeah, its the sales king right now, but their is NO excuse from people whining about gm and their enthusiast car portfolio being what it is when people are IGNORING this car again...

Ill post SEVERAL gm cars in the last 20 years that were GREAT enthusiast cars, NO BULLSHYTE cars that were GREAT and RELIABLE but were ignored by the public...

And there is ALWAYS some bulshyte, dumb phoquing excuse as to why these failed in the market place...but reality is:

AMERICANS DO NOT WANT EXCITING CARS!!!

THEY WANT BORING CUVS/SUVS

Sure...Dodge IS selling muscle cars!   Just 2.  The Charger and the Challenger.

Have we forgotten that gm ALSO has these for sale?

BOTH with MANUAL transmissions!  The COMPETITION does NOT offer manual transmission in theirs. But of course, the bullshyte excuses come out that these are ugly, or these or not Cadillacs or that these ARE Cadillacs and therefore not good....

I honestly do NOT understand what your beef is?

The EVs WILL roll out. The EVs will BE reliable, fast, awesome, good, great, and other similar adjectives and superlatives.

gm is doing EVs the RIGHT way.  Making sure the product is GREAT BEFORE they hit the showroom floor. Plus, making sure that the market is still thirsty for EVs in the first phoquing place.

In the mean time...

There are the dozens of CUVs and SUVs that DO sell that gm produces and makes a killing on. Their [ick-up trucks have GAINED steam and momentum and are selling big time and REGAINED their market share... 

What?

You peeved gm does NOT have a Raptor and TRX competitor?   OK... pissyness understood!  But gm DOES have a fine Cadillac CT5 V Blackwing and a Corvette to ease MY pain.  How 'bout you though?  Can you actually see the good?  Because there is a LOT of GREAT engineering going on at gm right about now that translates to some great cars and trucks and more to come in completely unknown future (in the US)...

 forgot to post some great FWD cars...

These were great cars, maybe not tru blue enthusiast cars, but were great in their own right. Had some handling chops.  The last one more for comfort rather than twisties, but the top one held its own. 

Did it have to be a BMW type of ultimate driving machine?  Not really...   But of course as was the case with the GTO, many of us so called enthusiasts poo pooed it because it wasnt a 1987 Grand National Regal GS GNX RWD with a turbo 3.8 V6...    It wasnt THE 1987 car. The GTO wasnt THE 1969 GTO.  

Like I said, always some bullshyte excuse JUST to ignore it and to continue to buy...CUVs and SUVs by the boatload. 

@oldshurst442 Thank you, you nailed it on the Head!

@regfootball @riviera74 I get it that you guys love cars over trucks and SUVs, but todays markets have moved onto Trucks / SUVs and have left cars behind. A good leader will see where the market is going and redirect the limited company funds to move in the direction that can build profits for the company and GM is a very profitable company.

You might not like their current portfolio, but many do and are buying just fine.

You might not like that they have limited cars, but think of it in this way, a BlackWing back from Lease resold as a CPO car for your desire at a reduced price compared to new.

Auto prices are crazy high, but there are still people that have to buy auto's out of need or still want to live the Jones/Jones race of who has the best. As thing ease over the next 18 months, prices will adjust and those that choose to lease the few cars GM still makes will come back as CPO especially since the leases NOW are stating they have to return the leased auto to a GM dealership. Ford, Dodge, Ram, BMW, etc. just about everyone even Honda are now stating this in their lease deals due to the shortages.

Yet as I said, once we get past this virus problem and shortage of chips problem and production gets back to normal, you will see plenty available and prices tend to adjust especially for used. 

As such, I would expect that if you dreamed of a BlackWing at a reasonable price for your budget / income you will probably find one.

If you do not like any of the current cars GM makes, there are others out there from other manufactures that you can buy from then. We have all seen how markets shift depending on tech and peoples desire and a company builds to the majority, not the minority of what people want.

GM is building some of their best quality auto's in the last few decades and especially over the 80's and 90's.

You might not like trucks / SUVs but the majority have moved to this for a life style of comfort and getting to where they want to play of which cars do not cut it in many situations. 

I respect and understand your frustration, but also see it from the stand point of GM has a well educated Engineer at the top that is allowing QUALITY Auto's to be built while making a profit to invest in future products that the majority of humans have a desire to own.

It isn't that they have limited cars, it's that they have limited enthusiast vehicles.

GM has the 2 Blackwings, Camaro, Corvette and ZR2 for enthusiasts, across three four brands.

Ford has Mustang, GT, Bronco, Raptor, Explorer ST, Edge ST, Tremor HD, F150, Ranger, and Badlands Bronco Sport 

Stelantis' has a much smaller portfolio yet they have SRTs for the Charger, Challenger, Durango, JGC, and add the Wrangler, PowerWagon and the Trailhawk Cherokee and Grand Cherokee. 

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

It isn't that they have limited cars, it's that they have limited enthusiast vehicles.

GM has the 2 Blackwings, Camaro, Corvette and ZR2 for enthusiasts, across three four brands.

Ford has Mustang, GT, Bronco, Raptor, Explorer ST, Edge ST, Tremor HD, F150, Ranger, and Badlands Bronco Sport 

Stelantis' has a much smaller portfolio yet they have SRTs for the Charger, Challenger, Durango, JGC, and add the Wrangler, PowerWagon and the Trailhawk Cherokee and Grand Cherokee. 

GM can't even muster a real decent powertrain for the Equinox, only the 1.5 is available.  Can't upgrade a Malibu to a 2.0 unless you spend 10 grand extra, all for the same numbers of pistons, cams, valves, plugs.  Only pennies more to make the larger engine but they won't sell it that way unless they can gouge the public.  Terrain Denalis have to suffer with the 1.5, no one buying Denali wants a base motor.

New Encore GX and Trailblazer only have 3 cylinder pisspots.  Would be a real option for more consumers with at least a 1.5 or 1.6/1.8 option, those would actually get better mpg because they would be working less hard.

Camaro, nice car, can't see out of it.  Would love one, they aren't making any, no inventory.  AWD option would be nice for winter state folks; all wheel drive v6 available it would become a legit option for me.

Jeep puts real v6 and v8 engines in the Grand Cherokee and such larger vehicles, no four poppers.. GM force feeding turbo motors into Acadias, XT5's and blazers so they can cheap out and sell less 6 cylinders.

CT5, nice car.  2.0 motor is down on power compared to CTS 2.0 so no one wants it.  Production mix is almost no 3.0 v6, which is what most people would want.

Pickup interiors straight from dollar tree.

New Suburbans are nice, as is the new Vette.  After decades there is finally foot room and leg room in the third row of a suburban.

Overall, apart from the super expensive Cadillacs (good luck finding any of the higher performance Caddies on a showroom floor and available), does GM have any 4 door vehicles with performance?  

Stellantis proved that big profits can come with providing value......room, size, stronger engines in high volume segments.  GM not interested in that, less profits.  GM is always decontenting and stripping value out of their products.

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

why these failed in the market

They didn't fail.

35 minutes ago, regfootball said:

Pickup interiors straight from dollar tree.

Over-dramatize, much?

Yes, the market has moved onto CUVs and SUVs.  That has been true since 2014 or so.  On that front, I want GM to build the best and be the best, regardless of segment.  There has been a lot of improvements, especially since the move to FWD back in the 1980s.  The only problem is that the competition has been moving faster and GM still has lower than it should be market share.  How is GM going to conquer sales from Toyota and Honda, let alone Hyundai/KIA?  How will Cadillac take back leadership from Lexus or MB/BMW/Audi?  The SUV was invented in the USA, not Germany or Japan.  Yet, it seems that the leader of every popular segment is a foreign automaker.  What is GM doing about this?  BEVs, with time, can take over but not for at least another decade at best.  GM needs to solve their lack of sales (after the chip shortage is resolved) as rapidly as possible.

A few things can be done right now:  dump the SMALL turbo 4s for real V6 engines (not the 3.6!).  Also, dump AFM since it does NO good and adds expense.  Buyers deserve and need vehicles with a batter value proposition right now.  GM needs segment leaders, especially at base levels.  Also-rans will not cut it. 

Be it a build to order format or not, Ford has now announced that they will spend more on EV R&D in 2023 than ICE R&D. ICE R&D will continue to wind down moving forward from 2023.

Ford slated to spend more on EVs than on conventional vehicles in 2023 (detroitnews.com)

Bigger yet is that Ford has committed to the same 40 to 50% of all North American Auto sales to be Electric by 2030 that GM and a few other automakers have also signed off on.

Electric vehicle sales: Biden's goal won't be too hard to reach by 2030 (msn.com)

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/08/05/biden-announce-increased-fuel-efficiency-standards-50-ev-sales-goal-2030/5483851001/

2 minutes ago, David said:

Be it a build to order format or not, Ford has now announced that they will spend more on EV R&D in 2023 than ICE R&D. ICE R&D will continue to wind down moving forward from 2023.

Ford slated to spend more on EVs than on conventional vehicles in 2023 (detroitnews.com)

Bigger yet is that Ford has committed to the same 40 to 50% of all North American Auto sales to be Electric by 2030 that GM and a few other automakers have also signed off on.

Electric vehicle sales: Biden's goal won't be too hard to reach by 2030 (msn.com)

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2021/08/05/biden-announce-increased-fuel-efficiency-standards-50-ev-sales-goal-2030/5483851001/

100% electric or electrified? 

Another benefit of the franchised dealer is the ease of trading in / getting rid of your old ride. I don't see OEMs / direct sales wanting any part of the used vehicle transaction, which means the new car buyer would be looking at either selling privately or making another dealing transaction with a used car dealer.

17 hours ago, ccap41 said:

100% electric or electrified? 

This is a vague response from Ford, but I have to believe Electrified which would include the Hybrids as the F-150 Hybrid truck is selling like crazy when available. IMHO

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Another benefit of the franchised dealer is the ease of trading in / getting rid of your old ride. I don't see OEMs / direct sales wanting any part of the used vehicle transaction, which means the new car buyer would be looking at either selling privately or making another dealing transaction with a used car dealer.

Makes one think that they would like everyone to go Lease so you can easily trade it in, but they have a constant ongoing revenue stream. Tesla / Musk has been vocal in the past about the benefits of leasing over buying.

Not my preference since I like you hold onto my auto's for a very long time.

4 minutes ago, David said:

This is a vague response from Ford, but I have to believe Electrified which would include the Hybrids as the F-150 Hybrid truck is selling like crazy when available. IMHO

That was my thought as well but I wasn't really sure. They didn't really seem to mention full EV or hybrid in the article so I didn't know if I missed something, Thanks!

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

Another benefit of the franchised dealer is the ease of trading in / getting rid of your old ride. I don't see OEMs / direct sales wanting any part of the used vehicle transaction, which means the new car buyer would be looking at either selling privately or making another dealing transaction with a used car dealer.

FACTS.  Too bad states have to protect these expensive little monopolies with franchise laws.

55 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

FACTS.  Too bad states have to protect these expensive little monopolies with franchise laws.

(Any  "he" and "you "in the next paragraphs are speaking in general not targeting anybody personally) 

Technically, they are not monopolies.   One county might have 1 or 2 dealership owner groups.  If by bad luck your county is sooooo small, that there is 1 or 2 dealerships of Ford and Toyota and BOTH are owned by the same ownership group, then you are shyte out of luck, but...NOTHING says you cant buy your car in the next county over. Even in your neighboring State.  Nothing says you cant buy the car online either... 

BUT...

No matter how excruciating haggling on price might be, getting ANY kind of discount on MSRP IS a WIN for the CUSTOMER...

It does NOT matter if your neighbor got an extra 500 bucks off on the same identical car at the same dealership. 

Why?   

1. He might have bought the car at a different time for the dealership. At a time of the month or year that the dealership WAS desperate for sales. You might have bought it when they werent so desperate...

2. You neighbor was maybe not as desperate in buying as you might have been...  

3. Your neighbor has better negotiating skills than you do...

4. Haggling on price doesnt net THAT much of a price difference between same models of cars and trims and between customers when bought at the same time of year.   There is a low margin to which dealerships will allow a sale to be made... Hit that low line and that is it...  

Those low lines may also differ from the time of year it may be.  Because there is also end of year sales (which nowadays are anytime of the year and not only in September and October like 30 years ago), and end of model year rebates when a new generation model is introduced. (which also is ANYTIME of the year and NOT just September and November like it was 30 years ago)  

Different times of the year equate to different haggling technics one has to use.  But...

5. Just worry on what YOU paid for your car.  Run your OWN race.  Like I said earlier...ANY monies off MSRP is a WIN for you... 

6. How do YOU know your neighbor is NOT lying on how much HE paid. Maybe HE got bamboozled and paid 5000 OVER sticker and is TOO embarrassed to say it to you?

Yeah...he could be pissed, and he could tell you that the dealership is crooked, but he could also lie to you that he got a 5000 dollar discount instead...

7. At the end of the day, NOBODY is forcing you to buy the car at ANY price at ANY time...

8. I agree with @balthazar

Take away STEALERSHIPS, (but why call them that?) and buy direct like as in Tesla and NO haggling on price happens and what WILL happen is that OEMs WILL raise prices at THEIR whim. And YOU have no say in THAT at all.  And you think OEMS will NOT collude to raise prices?  

You see that in the sports world ALL the time.

You saw that in baseball in the 1980s when MLB baseball owners colludied with each other to keep salaries low.  NHL Hockey owners are STILL doing that for the most part.

The NFL colludes in more ways than just salaries. Safety of their players... 

THAT is when true monopolies will arise. Oligopoly I think is the term... 

The way things are now, even when multiple dealerships are bought and consolidated with one ownership group, there are several ownership groups around COMPETING with each other to offer YOU the lowest price possible that YOU could muster.  YOU just have to take advantage of THAT fact...

So...take advantage of THAT fact!!! 

The laws are there to (supposedly) protect the consumer, not the dealer.
 

On 8/9/2021 at 8:51 PM, regfootball said:

Same thing with the Bolt.  Bolt and volt were [???] good cars but GM pats itself on the back for making another Bolt barely any different from the original Bolt and the customers who want a vehicle of a decent size for useful everyday family transportation with room and space.....and GM fails to get a clue.

Interesting narrative; think you can get it to gain any traction with the tin foil hat crowd??

Bolt was the NUMBER THREE best-selling BEV in Q1 2021 in the U.S..

9 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Take away STEALERSHIPS, (but why call them that?) and buy direct like as in Tesla and NO haggling on price happens and what WILL happen is that OEMs WILL raise prices at THEIR whim. And YOU have no say in THAT at all.  And you think OEMS will NOT collude to raise prices? 

They don't have to raise prices; they'd be tickled to get full MSRP just like Tesla does.

I wonder how Tesla buyers / online purchase advocates would respond if asked it they'd like $10,000 off the MSRP of their $50K vehicle................................... 😖 I know I enjoyed it, immensely.

Online car sales = FULL MSRP

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

They don't have to raise prices; they'd be tickled to get full MSRP just like Tesla does.

I wonder how Tesla buyers / online purchase advocates would respond if asked it they'd like $10,000 off the MSRP of their $50K vehicle................................... 😖 I know I enjoyed it, immensely.

Online car sales = FULL MSRP

Yes!

I wanted to say 'raise prices' as Tesla has raised the MSRP of certain of its models several times just this year alone.  

A dealership WILL ask a certain amount above MSRP of a hot car once in awhile, like a Hellcat Challenger or a  GT350 Mustang.

But

1. Nobody is forcing you to buy that particular trim or car at that price. Only fools will pay over sticker. Eventually the fad ends and dealerships revert to MSRP or below again within the year.   

2. Sometimes, OEMs WILL enforce disciplinary actions when they engage in such practices.  Like the C8 Corvette and the Demon Challenger. 

But yeah...who wont enjoy rebates and discounts?

I dont mind the haggling. I haggle. But I only haggle when I know Im buying THAT day.  The salesman/lady and the manager know Im serious because I take them seriously too.  They respect me, my offer. As I respect them and their offer.   The transaction is usually done quickly. I know I have low balled them too much JUST they way they act.  EVEN with ANY seasoned, veteran salesman, they have got 'tells' that show.   I know how much I wanna pay and not a penny more and they know just how I react with their offer as I also have tells.

But usually, the price the transaction is made is in the middle of the first two offers.  And that is how haggling works to begin with... In any sales situation where bargaining is made. 

I dont like the aftersales. The extended warranty and anti-rust proofing and scotch guard sprays that the other guy wants to sell me part of the  dealership experience. The salesman does not sell these things anymore.  I just quietly decline patiently. The thing is, this part takes about an hour. Does this part HAVE to be that long?