WOW, that is taking a large dumping of Salt as you stated Bill, there is no evidence other than hearsay. This does bring up the question of why not a DCT of 10 spds or some other amount rather than just the 6?

8 minutes ago, dfelt said:

WOW, that is taking a large dumping of Salt as you stated Bill, there is no evidence other than hearsay. This does bring up the question of why not a DCT of 10 spds or some other amount rather than just the 6?

Yeah, it doesn't work like that. There are a multitude of reasons why, but the short answer is that is a bad idea.

Nobody wants to shift 10 manual gears is the short answer.

And a high revving engine does not match up to an automatic, so that is out of the question.

6 speeds is perfect for manual.

Am I missing something?  Wouldn't a 10-speed DCT shift itself?

^ that's what I was thinking as well. 

10 speeds help you to keep rpms down low, where a high revving breathing engine does not want to be.

You are almost better off with fewer gears.

But we're not talking about a 10 spd manual. We're talking about an auto/DCT. Programmed correctly it would always be where the driver wants it to be as well.

I was thinking.. If this is the 7spd DCT that's going to be used in the GT and it bolts up to a mustang.. Does that mean the 3.5EB might not be too far off from being in a Mustang????

The Ford GT, with its 3.5L IMSA DP derived EcoBoost,, will be running a 7 Speed DCT. 

Maybe the Shelby can run a modified version of that transaxle 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I was thinking.. If this is the 7spd DCT that's going to be used in the GT and it bolts up to a mustang.. Does that mean the 3.5EB might not be too far off from being in a Mustang????

Doh...

If I had " clicked " on your comment in the " activities " page I would have en you posted this before I said what I did - which was echo your comment.

5 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

Doh...

If I had " clicked " on your comment in the " activities " page I would have en you posted this before I said what I did - which was echo your comment.

 

 

 

Hahaha I've done it before as well.

Interesting idea though. Not sure were it would slot in at all though. Personally, I don't want it the top engine even if it is 700hp.. The ignorant part of me still just wants a V8 at the top of the lineup. I could actually see it replacing the 5.0 in the GT and keeping V8s for the specialty models. I'm not a huge fan of the idea but I could see it eventually happening.

2 hours ago, Wings4Life said:

10 speeds help you to keep rpms down low, where a high revving breathing engine does not want to be.

You are almost better off with fewer gears.

10 speeds means the engine can be in the meat of its powerband wherever that is. All the rest is just tuning. 

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

But we're not talking about a 10 spd manual. We're talking about an auto/DCT. Programmed correctly it would always be where the driver wants it to be as well.

There would be no benefit to more speeds. At least not in performance.  In fact, it might cost you in performance. Imagine a hard run to 150mph today.  After the initial quick 1-2 shift, there is an increasing duration of time needed to hit 8200 redline before you shift 2-3, and again for 3-3, 4-5 and I think you would just be hitting 5-6 as you hit 150, where you could wind it out to about 185 or so.  Now, imagine a setup that requires you add 6-7, 7-8, 8-9 and 9-10 automatic shifts for max acceleration to that same 150.  That is (4) more shifts that have to wait for the engine to hit redline.  Sure, gearing could help, but there is still additional time needed for all the extra shifts, as the transmission will always wait for the engine, not the other way around. 

Would there be a benefit in FE?

Probably. So what. Hardly worth all the compromises.

9 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

10 speeds means the engine can be in the meat of its powerband wherever that is. All the rest is just tuning. 

Not true for this application and engine.

1. DCTs can skip shift

2. DCT shift incredibly fast. 

12 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

There would be no benefit to more speeds. At least not in performance.  In fact, it might cost you in performance. Imagine a hard run to 150mph today.  After the initial quick 1-2 shift, there is an increasing duration of time needed to hit 8200 redline before you shift 2-3, and again for 3-3, 4-5 and I think you would just be hitting 5-6 as you hit 150, where you could wind it out to about 185 or so.  Now, imagine a setup that requires you add 6-7, 7-8, 8-9 and 9-10 automatic shifts for max acceleration to that same 150.  That is (4) more shifts that have to wait for the engine to hit redline.  Sure, gearing could help, but there is still additional time needed for all the extra shifts, as the transmission will always wait for the engine, not the other way around. 

Would there be a benefit in FE?

Probably. So what. Hardly worth all the compromises.

Not true for this application and engine.

Uhhh What?

DCT done right will blow a manual trans out of the water if you're talking speed between gears. So let's talk theoretically because I don't know the ratios and RPM per gear of the current setup.

6spd has longer, wider ratios. Shift at 8200rpm and rpms drop to let's say 5500rpm. It makes less power at 5500 than 8200, right? So if we can make that shift closer and tighter AND faster why not? Let's say this 10spd takes that sift from 8200rom down to 6500rpm instead. That's 1000rpm's worth of power you're gaining. Oh, and time because a DCT is way faster than a hand and foot.

"Not true for this application and engine."

What..again..? This is the perfect application to need the engine wound up more often because it needs the RPMs more than and turbo mill or cross plane V8 that makes more low-mid range power.

DCT good for Shelby

4 more gears, not good. 

2 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

DCT good for Shelby

4 more gears, not good. 

 

You have to be literally the only person in the world who would argue that.

12 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

DCT good for Shelby

4 more gears, not good. 

 

So what your saying is that all the other companies such as BMW, MB, Porsche, etc. are wrong for stating that DCT with more gears are better fuel economy, faster shift times and superior ease of operation.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/07/09/dct-transmission-how-they-work-and-why-we-use-them/

http://world.honda.com/DCT/secondgeneration/index.html

This Transmission comparison for Manual, Manual Auto, Auto, DCT, Tiptronic, and CVT is outstanding and all three threads seem to be counter to what you state.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/278721/transmissions-explained-manual-v-automatic-v-dual-clutch-v-cvt-v-others/

26 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

DCT good for Shelby

4 more gears, not good. 

 

So elaborate, please.

I explained one reason I thought the would improve the performance. Please explain how they would not improve the performance.

Besides... a 6-speed transmission in the Shelby will put it 2-gears or 4-gears short of various Camaros. 

No, I am not the only person who thinks adding 4 more gears would do nothing to improve performance.  If that were the case, you would then have to believe a 12 speed would help too.

10 speeds CAN give you a tiny advantage out of the hole and maybe through 2^nd gear, assuming you have a power deficit and can use the gearing. No problem with the Shelby, as it can barely keep it’s tires from melting.  But adding 4 more gears will probably hurt acceleration at the top end, and will not help.  That’s pretty obvious.  The DCT can help with the 6 shifts a small bit, but adding 4 more of them, will not.  Plain and simple. 

 And a camaro spins far fewer RPM's than Shelby.

That said, I think there might be a ratio setup that can work with 7 speeds, but not more than that.

Look up 1/4 mile times for the GTI 6 spd and GTI with their DSG. THEN try and explain your logic.

19 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

No, I am not the only person who thinks adding 4 more gears would do nothing to improve performance.  If that were the case, you would then have to believe a 12 speed would help too.

 

 

 

10 speeds CAN give you a tiny advantage out of the hole and maybe through 2^nd gear, assuming you have a power deficit and can use the gearing. No problem with the Shelby, as it can barely keep it’s tires from melting.  But adding 4 more gears will probably hurt acceleration at the top end, and will not help.  That’s pretty obvious.  The DCT can help with the 6 shifts a small bit, but adding 4 more of them, will not.  Plain and simple. 

 

 

 And a camaro spins far fewer RPM's than Shelby.

That said, I think there might be a ratio setup that can work with 7 speeds, but not more than that.

 

While I do agree with you that there is an upper limit on the number of gears that are beneficial to a given vehicle... I don't think 6 gears is the number; 8, 9, and 10 are becoming the industry standard these days. 

Why do some of you continue to miss my point, that adding 4 more gears on a high revving NA engine that makes it’s peak power at the very top of it’s power band, WILL NOT IMPROVE TOP END ACCELERATION, as it needs to be in that power band to put down good numbers.  If the rpms are bouncing back down every shift, how….repeat, how is this helping? This is not a turbo VW either, or a much slower spinning pushrod motor that relies on displacement, with a power band much lower.

Come on guys, try to keep up.

So if you believe 10 speeds will help the aforementioned cause, then you must believe that 12 or 14 will as well.  Simply. Not. True.

1 minute ago, Wings4Life said:

Why do some of you continue to miss my point, that adding 4 more gears on a high revving NA engine that makes it’s peak power at the very top of it’s power band, WILL NOT IMPROVE TOP END ACCELERATION, as it needs to be in that power band to put down good numbers.  If the rpms are bouncing back down every shift, how….repeat, how is this helping? This is not a turbo VW either, or a much slower spinning pushrod motor that relies on displacement, with a power band much lower.

 

 

 

Come on guys, try to keep up.

 

So if you believe 10 speeds will help the aforementioned cause, then you must believe that 12 or 14 will as well.  Simply. Not. True.

 

Why wouldn't the shift points just be at a different RPM than in those other engines??... for example, if the Camaro and Shelby are both equipped with the same 10-speed DCT, the Camaro would shift ~2,000 rpm sooner than the Shelby, but that's not a bad thing for the Shelby. It gets a full 2000 RPM more to work with in each gear, so when it does shift up, its RPM probably remains entirely above the Camaro's red-line..   If it only has a 6-speed, the RPM has to drop much further below red-line and work back up again. The 10-speed would give the Shelby's "high revving heavy breathing" engine more time in the high revving heavy breathing range.