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hyperv6

Who Killed Pontiac!

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RE: Heavy Chevy

The 402-powered cars are very rare, and the 454 was an SS exclusive.

But yeah, an insurance-friendly, less expensive, SS was what it tried to be.

EDIT: and they got the "domed hood", but the functional cowl-induction was off-limits.

I remember them (a few) running around town when they were new, and even as a kid I thought it was a silly package.

Pontiac's Formula approach will always be much more to my liking - all the balls and half the show.

Sure beats Chevy's watered-down "less than SS" option packages.

And that holds true right through the 4th gen F-body.

:AH-HA_wink:

Edited by Camino LS6

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You must be awfully bored to do something like that...that's extremely nerdy.

Balthazar is an automotive scholar, and I for one am quite happy to see his knowlege shared here.

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Speaking of T37s, weren't some of them pretty basic 2dr sedans with dog dish hubcaps and 6 cylinders? Chevy didn't even offer a Chevelle 2dr sedan those years..seems strange Pontiac would have models as or more plain and basic than Chevy, which I think was the authors' point. Same argument could be made about Buick and Olds, since they may have had very basic midsize models also those years (Skylark and F85 two door sedans w/ 6 cylinders). Even 35+ years ago, GM's 4 mainstream divisions competed with each other with similar models.

Of course, since Balthy is the self appointed supreme source of all automotive knowledge, he will have the definitive answer.. :)

The Gt-37 or T-37...hmmm...actually remember that one....one of the guys on the football team in high school had one...don't remember the guys name...but he had red hair and the car was white.

It was quite a nice car...similar to the Heavy Chevy, which came out in 71 IIRC.

Was nice when GM offered things in different flavors and every flavor was good. Mostly what I get out of this thread is sadness and a nostalgia for when times were much better. Methinks those times will never be here again.

Chris

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...and remember the Chevelle was emasculated after 70. IIRC you could get a 307 in an SS Chevelle in like 72. Heavy Chevy came with a 307 when you wanted it that way.

Irony of Irony I know of two cars that came with a 307 and a four speed from GM...a red 69 Camaro that my friend Allen bought new and a blue Ragtop Chevelle that a customer of mine used to own.

That Chevelle was blue on blue, 72, bucket seats...NICE car.

Damn, I miss the days when these cars were everywhere and on the street every day.

Chris

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I remember a neighbor having a T-37, but the thing was loaded with options including fender skirts a la Luxury Lemans.

Strange.

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I remember a neighbor having a T-37, but the thing was loaded with options including fender skirts a la Luxury Lemans.

Strange.

Only strange because we are used to getting a POS Kia in blue or red, and not getting the exact car we want. Life magazine, back in 1966, figured out the number of combo's for an Impala. Seems like there were about a million and a half different combo's, depending on how you wanted your car.

...and so, mr. Camino...would you like your Kia crapbox with the babycrap brown interior or the dog crap brown interior?

Modern cars really suck bigtime in a way.

Oh...and I just love balthazar. I learn or remember all kinds of things reading what he writes. And it's just nice to have someone else that is fanatical about the way things used to be from GM.

Chris

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Amen to that!

But I'll take the zero on the Kia.

BTW, does Kia stand for "killed in action"?

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For a few years the Pontiacs were getting pretty high priced for what I would term not anything rare type cars when it would take a numbers matching Z/28 or a LS 5 or even a convert SS Chevelle.

The economy may have dropped some of the prices on the Pontiacs as I just checked and the Judges are still up in six figures if documented but many of the GTO's are back to where they were a few years back. I had a couple buddies traqding in GTO's thew last couple years and made some big coin on cars that were nice but not for the price they sold for,

One thing I think helped the Pontiac was PHS for a few years and now they offer the same for Chevy. Olds guys are hurting since many of the records burned in a fire at Olds years ago.

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I thought the PHS-style service for Chevy fell through!

It's available now?!!!

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>>"I find it funny how you feel everone else is wrong..."<<

As I already stated, I don't 'feel everyone else is wrong' and I never said that, but at times I know stated facts are incorrect, regardless of who or how many said them. Gotta learn to separate the two. Just because a correction doesn't please you or echo your heros, doesn't mean it's not correct.

For the record, I have corrected numerous magazines & websites WRT automotive-related info, but never once was it anything I came up with out of my own mind. It has also almost always been appreciated (manners are never unilateral).

"There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." -- TR

What am I supposed to do with this ?? :

>>"Production for the GT-37 the rival for the Heavy Chevy was less. You're 20K quote also included the non performance T-37."<<

I suppose I could just ignore it.... :unsure: ...... nah: While true, note should be made that the Heavy Chevy package did not include a specific engine, so unless a performance engine was optioned, the Heavy Chevy was a 'non-performance' car, too. They weren't all 402s. Discussion on a Chevy board logged much initial disbelief a big block was even available in the HC (it was).

I didn't make this up, GM did. Perhaps it's GM that thinks everyone else is wrong. :scratchchin:

-- -- -- -- --

Want to know what's REALLY funny?

That such supposedly-perfect people could so royally f**k up Pontiac.

-- -- -- -- --

Wangers says the '60 8-lug is the first styled road wheel, even tho Cadillac offered their styled road wheel a half-decade earlier. You suck it all down, hook, line & sinker, because Wangers said so. You dismiss the Sabre Spoke because it doesn't meet your criteria for volume (like the 8-lug was any kind of high volume option). Cadillac, history books, the cars themselves are all wrong, and Wangers is right 'because he was there'. You would hold a 1955-coded Sabre Spoke in your hands and call it & me a lie. It defies logic.

-- -- -- -- --

Tell you what, hyper; I'll pull up verbatim quoted lines from Glory Days, claim they are incorrect, and bet you money on that. You verify it, and I'll pay you if I'm wrong. You pay me if I'm right. $5 a fact, let's have a little competition.

I never said everything is this world is 100% correct including you. Yes some where some place you were WRONG too and will be again.

I know the HV Chevy was availiable big and small block that was no seceret as I had a few in my area and one had a BBC so what is your point? you're not the only one who knows that? A wide range of engines were also available in the the T-37/GT-37 too but I suppose you want to claim they were two totally different models too when in fact they were two variations of the same car.

The point of Jim story is the fact That such supposedly-perfect people [GM soldiers] did so royally f**k up Pontiac after 1970. His point of view was form a marketing stand point. In his case such as yours hind sight is 20-20 but mistakes were made and some people have different opionions than you. That does not make you right and everyone else wrong and you need to accept the fact that right or wrong other are permited to have their say.

So sorry I do not bow to your alter. I find it odd as you correct everyone else that either lived the history, wrote about the history and many who make a good living selling history of Pontiac and GM and you are just on a web site.

I am sorry I even mention this story. I hope some will read it and enjoy it as I thought it was a nice review od names people in GM and the things they did or did not do. Agree with it or not we all need to look at other views and opinions.

I have wasted enough time on you time to move on as It is not as important to me as it seems to be to you. In other words get a life.

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:neenerneener:

Speaking of T37s, weren't some of them pretty basic 2dr sedans with dog dish hubcaps and 6 cylinders? Chevy didn't even offer a Chevelle 2dr sedan those years..seems strange Pontiac would have models as or more plain and basic than Chevy, which I think was the authors' point. Same argument could be made about Buick and Olds, since they may have had very basic midsize models also those years (Skylark and F85 two door sedans w/ 6 cylinders). Even 35+ years ago, GM's 4 mainstream divisions competed with each other with similar models.

Thank you for understanding the story.

Remember the Rallye 350 Cutlass. There is two in my area. I see less of these than I see of even the Hurst GP's.

The economy caved in just after 1970 and the insurance was killing the big cars. This was the begining of the sticker cars. They has all these graphics but not as much are near the HP as in the past.

Accept for a few very rare Pontiac engines there were very little to performance other than stickers. I remember a 442 form around 1975 or 6 that had a 5 speed and I got excited till I found it only had a 260 Olds V8. Also 75-76 Chevy pretty much gave up on performance. We had no z/28 and Vettes with Vega steering wheels.

The sad fact is GM divisions did more damage than toyota or Ford did to hurt GM over the years. Imagine if they had all worked togeter to offer models that complimented and not competed for the same dollar.

All these divisions worked when they offerd 3-4 versions of the same basic model platform not 4 versions each of 18 models.

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:neenerneener:

I thought the PHS-style service for Chevy fell through!

It's available now?!!!

I had read it was going but It may have stopped? Jim Mattison was doing it along with the Pontiac deal. GM also was now offering it in Canada. I had to go through them to get info on my Fiero as it was a Canadian car and PHS in the states did not have the records.

The Canadian arm was cool they gave me a lot of info and even the recall plate I neve got here to check the oil at ever fill up. It may have only been sent to the 4 cylinder cars. The neat part is is they sent me one in French too.

We always laughed at the plate as this on the console stating to check the oil to prevent a fire was a real resale killer if anyone put it on.

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Last I heard, Mattison was not a happy camper and the Chevy deal was dead.

GM Canada can do it for Canadian-built cars (or at least Canadian market cars), but I think Chevy-USA is a no go.

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Camino, 'stang :- thanks for the support; damned decent of you.

-- -- -- -- --

Hyper : I never 'met' someone before, whom confronted with specific comments about individual lines they've posted, ignores them completely. Ah well, it is as you say; enough time spent already.

-- -- -- -- --

Cubitar -[/b] >>"Speaking of T37s, weren't some of them pretty basic 2dr sedans with dog dish hubcaps and 6 cylinders? Chevy didn't even offer a Chevelle 2dr sedan those years..seems strange Pontiac would have models as or more plain and basic than Chevy, which I think was the authors' point."<<

Sure, some came that way- same was true for the other Divisions' As.

But this B-pillar by itself (while I LOVE it when it's gone) doesn't really ring true as the hallmark of "as or more plain" IMO. It's not enough by itself. But your point does support mine in a roundabout way; while Pontiac, Olds & Buick were still offering a 2-dr sedan in '71, why was Chevy only offering hardtop Chevelle 2-drs ???

Again, I contend that it was NOT Pontiac who was out of place, it was Chevy.

>>"Even 35+ years ago, GM's 4 mainstream divisions competed with each other with similar models."<<

I don't believe they competed with each other any more or less than they did with a 'stripper/ dog dish Fairlane or Coronet. Buick, Olds, Pontiac weren't perceived then as 'badge-jobs' or interchangable minions of GM, but as what they were and had been up thru then; semi-autonomous marques with products in the same classes. Just because the parent Corp was one & the same, doesn't mean the product primarily competed against each other in the mind of the consumer... brand loyalty ran much higher then....

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Last I heard, Mattison was not a happy camper and the Chevy deal was dead.

GM Canada can do it for Canadian-built cars (or at least Canadian market cars), but I think Chevy-USA is a no go.

Yep Chevy is a no go. You were right they never pulled it off.

Yes in Canada it is Canadian market cars even if they are built here and sent over. That was my issue on my car as it was built in Pontiac MI but they had no in at Pontiac USA. The Canadian group gave me all my info.

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RE: Heavy Chevy

The 402-powered cars are very rare, and the 454 was an SS exclusive.

Pontiac's Formula approach will always be much more to my liking - all the balls and half the show.

Sure beats Chevy's watered-down "less than SS" option packages.

And that holds true right through the 4th gen F-body.

:AH-HA_wink:

Two thoughts...I remember looking at a wierd bronze colored 402 powered project that was a "real" heavy Chevy. In retrospect, had I realized how rare it was, I may well have bought it and restored it.

Also...another one that "got away" was the GTO that I looked at before I bought my 55 chevy. 65 Goat, 4V and no tripower, blue on blue, post with dog dish hubcaps. Fits the all balls and half the show thing 100%, and I know EXACTLY what your talking about.

Find me a clean 68 GTO in Verdero Green and you can have my firstborn son. But it probably would be cheaper to feed the goat at 4 bucks a gallon...

Chris

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...and another awesome GM car of the Era...W-31 Olds Cutty.

http://www.classicdreamcars.com/70greenoldscutlass.html

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/363625

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/221108

The last link has a cool side shot that is just the cat's ass in terms of GM pics.

The midsize GM cars from 68 to 72 are a high water mark for GM IMHO, one they haven't hit since.

Again, it goes back to having different flavors of the same thing that were actually good.

GM just did it right during this time period.

Chris

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Amen to that last bit!

Nothing touches those cars - they were simply the best.

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I came this close to pulling the trigger on a white w/ red interior '68 GTO with a Hurst His-n-Hers shifter, when the guy unexpectedly sold it out from under me. I always gravitate to the pre-'68s, but that car was slick and it was talking to me.

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Ya'll can shoot me for this...but the 60's GM car I really want is a 67-68 Firebird. All the class of a first gen camaro with all of the heritage and style of a Pontiac.

I just LOVE those cars...

Chris

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I had a friend who had a 1964 GTO with ever factory option. It is one of the few I have ever seen and they were all factory installed. This car was near perfrect. It was red and the one thing I was not crazy about was the white interior. It though was original and perfect. He just up and sold it 2 years ago for $20K If I had know he would let it go so cheap I would have bought it as it was a 40K plus car in the condition and optioned as it was.

The Heavy Chevy I remember were near where I mowed grass growing up. Back in near 1980 the guy who lived near by had a red BBC HC with the black stripes and his brother had a identical one to it but his was just a Red Chevelle with the stripes. Then the guy about 8 houses away had a Can AM.

I am not a big Vedero Green lover but there is a Firebird on the way home in Vedero with red lines. It seldom is out side but it is spectacular. It has the 400 on the hood and hood tach too.

The neat car of late is a guy at work just bought a 61 Tempest 2 door with the old slant 4. It only has 32,000 miles and was just bought from the original owner a littl old lady. It had been stored for years but only needed an oil change and was ready for the road. The tires have some flat spots so I think he is going to change them. ANy sunny day he drives it to work.

The only T-37 I ever liked was the local guy here in town that reproduced the Kanafel special edition Magnum 400 edition. It has been in severaql magazines. Other wise they never appealed to me.

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I said somewhere that DeLorean called it in his book. He knew what Pontiac was supposed to be, and if they would have just kept on that path, instead of turning it into a &#036;h&#33; sandwich with mayo, who knows.

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Ya'll can shoot me for this...but the 60's GM car I really want is a 67-68 Firebird. All the class of a first gen camaro with all of the heritage and style of a Pontiac.

I just LOVE those cars...

Chris

I would because if to pick any first gen F-car it would be a '69 Firebird with 400 or a Trans Am both coupes of course.

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If I had any first gen F-body, I'd want a Vedoro green '68 Firebird 400 ht and my brothers' Le Mans Blue '68 Camaro SS396 (wish he had kept it).

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C'mon Gm4life...only 8 TA ragtops were built in 69, and last I knew only four survived...

(I am a ragtop lover). However, the C pillar on the first gen f bodies, combined with that roofline...

For me it would have to perhaps be a coupe...don't know. But I do love the first gen Firebird and Camaro.

Chris

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