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@smk4565 Your now sounding more and more like a Tesla Fan Boy as well as a Mercedes Fan Boy. No fault, you like what you like and that is fine. Please understand, EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY!!! As such, Tesla started the true major move to EVs, I will not take that away. GM pissed the leadership away and I think most would agree with that assessment, but that does not mean they are out. Ford is playing catchup as are most companies and then you have Toyota, the darling of the last 3 decades pissing everything on Hydrogen even in racing. Toyota days as king are also limited. Yes if we look at stock price we see Tesla is more valuable than GM. Yet, a better picture is what true long term investors look at and that is the Financials. Yes net profits are double at Tesla for the last two years, but then you have consistency from GM on Net Profits and let's look at two very important items. Diluted Average Shares and Normalized EBITDA. Comparing the two companies, long term, GM is a far better run company than Tesla, Half the number of shares on the market with double the normalized EBITDA. Yes, you could say that GM has lots of red negative numbers, but then GM has lots of intellectual property and as such to control paying taxes, they are better at moving around the accounting game to minimize profit taxes than Tesla it would seem. Both companies have potential and positive as well as negative points. Tesla is King right now, but as @surreal1272 pointed out, last year alone, Tesla lost 15.4% market share in the U.S. alone and that number will continue to drop as competitors battery plants and production lines come online to build products to compete with Tesla. Analyst has already stated that Tesla could drop to around 50% market share by the end of this year. Back on topic Back on topic Back on Topic In regard to the Demon 170 and the death of the Hemi V8. This comes after the Stellantis division, AKA Dodge, Ram, Jeep, Chrysler had to pay $300 Million last year for emissions cheating on their V8 Engines and Diesel. Stellantis Unit to Pay $300 Million After Pleading Guilty in Emissions-Fraud Case - WSJ Stellantis Parent Company decided NO MORE EMISSIONS Credit purchases to support V8, So America will get smaller engines in the short term as they ramp up EVs. As we all seem to be in agreement on is that the Demon 170 name is understandable but lacking in what they could have done and I agree with @oldshurst442 that the Black Ghost or hell even Leprechaun Demon would have been better than Demon 170! So many ways I think they could have done this final last call.

I got a really short drive in one in a Grand Wagoneer. It's smooth with gobs of low-end torque. You don't miss the very nice 6.4 eTorque at all.

Did you just seriously type that with a straight face?

The Hellcats and Demons are practically collector cars now. The Last Call Editions are not built yet, and yet we could sense, well...me at least...that these cars are collector cars NOW. There are a few cars when produced, we kinda know that they will eventually become legendary and collectable. And these very wild in name and in horsepower LX cars are one of the rare cases that we KNOW. I was but a teenager, 14 years old in 1987 and I KNEW the Buick GNX was a future classic. We all knew. When Porsche introduced the Carrera GT to the world, we all knew that the car is going to be a classic as SOON as it rolls off the assembly line. And the LX cars with the outrageous names and power numbers are of that same breed. There is no denying it. You saw it coming as SOON as Dodge released the 1st Hellcat in 2015... Dodge sold quite a few of these Hellcats. In Challenger form. And in other forms too. And it dont matter. Sometimes a collector car classic being valuable has NOTHING to do with rarity. But in ANY case of being a valuable collector car, there must be something about the car that people think of it in the future for those people to lust after it IN the future. And the outrageous versions of these LX cars have that something special. Right now and IN the future. Nostalgia....with the LX cars... Its nostalgia, with the fact that these are the LAST OUTPHOQUINGRAGEOUS internal combustion engined cars ever to be produced. And THAT is one powerful statement to own for the future of collectability for these cars...

Speaking of airplanes (obviously, in this thread), has anybody wanted the new Netflix documentary on the MH370 disappearance? It'd very interesting and I'd suggest a watch.

Only young, pretty people should be having sex.

I was talking about the Challenger 170. It isn't that I don't care about the Challenger or that I dislike it. I just don't care about this "last call" marketing crap. It's a one-trick pony in an area that I just don't really care that much about nor am impressed with anymore.

You're not wrong about their efficiency but you're saying the actual cost to Tesla has to be right around the same as the Model 3, to price it at 50k. Just with it being much larger and a stainless steel body makes me feel like it has to cost a fair amount more for Tesla to produce.

This cracked me up, theives stole thousands of dollars in game consoles and then tried to use a stolen Tesla X that needed to be charged. Let's just say they did not get away. https://v19-webapp-prime.us.tiktok.com/video/tos/useast5/tos-useast5-ve-0068c002-tx/ecdaccb6ad5d4b0ea1d9573e586651a3/?a=1988&ch=0&cr=0&dr=0&lr=tiktok_m&cd=0|0|1|0&cv=1&br=1828&bt=914&cs=0&ds=3&ft=_rKBMBnZq8Zmofn~Jc_vjnG8sAhLrus&mime_type=video_mp4&qs=0&rc=aDY0N2ZpNzhlODxkOWZpZ0BpM21xdTg6ZnRpajMzZzczNEAwYzQzNTItXjYxM2NiXjI2YSNuajFmcjRvLzVgLS1kMS9zcw%3D%3D&expire=1679704615&l=202303241836279D0885164E4E7728657C&ply_type=2&policy=2&signature=8d056fe5e985fa96186e94241aa61a44&tk=tt_chain_token

That movie did two things very well, pointed out a ton of unanswered questions and opened the gates of hell to Conspiracy theorist who have gone off the deep end on what really happened. Agree, a very well-done documentary on a mystery that I question will ever be solved in our lifetime. Much like the crazy Bermuda Triangle plane/ship disappearances.

I'd also like to add, I'd prefer my Challenger to be a "regular" Hellcat, +/- the Redeye, like you. If I really wanted a 9 second car, it could be built for a lot less and driven without worry of a depreciating asset. I bet most of these 3000 units won't see a full tank of gas a year because collectors want an investment and know a "last call" will appreciate. They're probably correct but I'd prefer one I could drive without that worry or thought in the back of my head. To that idea, it kind of bums me out realizing I'm not sure if I'll ever own an 03-04 Cobra for that same reason. The prices are pretty nuts already and if I did happen to buy one, I know damn well it would be in the back of my head that if I didn't drive it, I would likely break even or make money down the road. It would probably just make more sense to build a New Edge to my liking. There's actually one on a local Facebook page for sale with a Coyote shoehorned in the engine bay.. lovely car.

Yeah. I hear ya on that. Im not into these Last Call editions either. With the sole exemption of the Black Ghost. I feel as though the Black Ghost should have been the SOLE ‘Last Call’ edition and as the legend goes: an unknown street car racer would show up from time to time at a street race, blow the doors off everyone and then disappear into the night. The legend is a fitting last call edition to send off these cars. But, Dodge somehow needs to milk this. To be fair to Dodge, there are many fans of these cars so they should milk it. Im not of this fanhood that needs ‘Last Call’ validation models to see them go off into the sunset. Like you, I view them as marketing bullshyte. Although the Swinger edition could have been a version Id like had I been a Boomer of a certain age in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s doin’ certain lifestyle activities to evoke that name. But imagine sll these Boomers now, all wrinkley like raisins still engaging in that swinger lifestyle. YUCK!!!

Oh FFS. How many times are you going to beat this horse to death, Market valuations and the house of cards that is Tesla profit margin has been explained to you time and time again yet you come back two months later with the same debunked BS. Just stop it already. I'm assuming that you can read a basic graph. I would that losing over HALF of your market cap is the opposite of a good sign for Tesla but keep cherry picking that data to prop them top, for whatever reason. Ignore all the facts that show the dangers for Tesla. You haven't convinced anyone here of ti yet but hey, it clearly hasn't stopped you from beating that dead horse for the last three years now, much like your Cybertruck talk. Oh and... Now, maybe we can go back to the subject at hand, which is the Challenger Demon. Let's try that, shall we?

No they are not. When...all these things I mentioned will boil over and it turns out to be negative for Tesla...their stock value will lower considerably. It already has gone down considerably. Dont also forget that Tesla's value is more based on speculation on what shyte comes out of Musk's mouth. His over-promises has skyrocketed Tesla's value. But his under-delivery has also made Tesla's value drop like no other in history too. Tesla value dropped soooo much in January. And investor's have made it clear that they dont accept Musk bullshyte no longer. It remains to be seen what Tesla stock value will be by Dec. 2023... Jan 2023 https://www.npr.org/2023/01/06/1146941980/tesla-shares-elon-musk-twitter-electric-cars Dec. 2022 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-07/tesla-tsla-stock-slump-investors-frustrated-by-elon-musk-twitter-distraction#xj4y7vzkg Like I said...Tesla's luck and charm WILL run out. Just a matter of time if Musk doesnt fix himself and his company that he chiefs over. Means nothing. Like I said...in the car making business...it takes CONTINUAL amounts of billions. And it takes investors and loans to finance NEW models. It takes business plans to secure loans and investments from investors. And it takes prrof that you have cars in demand. Tesla cars are SLIDING in demand. Tesla had to resort to OLD DETROIT ways of doing business. And that is to slash prices. In China...all that did was make its competitors to do the same. Dude...LEGACY automakers have been down that road many many MANY times in THEIR 100 plus year history. Nothing new to GM, VAG or Ford. Toyota has never had to do something THAT drastic, but Toyota knows how to deal with that kind of thing. https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/25/23571618/tesla-q4-2022-earnings-revenue-profit-prices-demand GM has had 100 plus years of business. Banks and investors KNOW when to trust GM and when NOT to. Investors are finding out that Musk is a blowhard used car salesman... See how THAT turns out for Musk when Musk will need billions upon billions to get a 2nd gen Model S and Model 3 and Model Y... In 5 years...GM will have 30 NEW EV models to sell... Tesla will STILL be peddling ANCIENT Model S and Model 3 and Model Y. Ford sells 1 million F150s ALONE. Not. A. Chance. VAG is on the verge of letting loose their OWN 30 NEW EV models to compete with...GM. LOL. Toyota is behind... But BECAUSE Musk is such a bullshytting used car salesman, Toyota EV will have surpassed Tesla's in about 5 years... Everyone thinks that Toyota lags in EV tech. They dont. They have the hybrid thing all figured out by far from everyone else. They WILL figure out to do EV specific platforms. They know about batteries and EV motors. Not hard to catch up. Toyota rabid fanboys are more plentiful than Tesla's, I worry not for Toyota. Tesla is NOT in a very good position right now. Hyundai, GM, VAG, Toyota, the Chinese EV brands, Stellantis, even FoMoCo after announcing they will lose 3 billion dollars this year in producing EVs look healthier in terms of stability than Tesla is...

Not betting against Tesla, just stating they are not as great a company as you and the Tesla Rabid Fan followers make it out to be. I believe the other OEMs are going to catch up and Tesla will be a hurting company. Already, sales have slowed down and their only way to keep momentum is to cut prices on a long in the tooth style from a political polarizing CEO. A man who has forgotten he works for the shareholders not himself. Right Now Kia and Hyundai are building better EVs according to the media than Tesla and buyers are listening. His political push of his world is also turning off people who do not want to be associated with Tesla CEO and as such are dumping their Tesla and going Mach-e, EV6, Ioniq 6 and now we have solid reviews on Genesis GV60 EV. Tesla's Days as king are numbered and you hit all the correct points about what Tesla is facing on top of the sexual harassment lawsuits against Musk and the Company. The HR department and Legal have their hands full. The next 24 months could really make a difference for Tesla.

You are talking about the Challenger, right? There are so many cars mentioned above your post, Ive lost focus. I view the Challenger (Hellcat for me as its my favorite trim), not as a quarter mile queen, but as a top dog muscle car, and muscle cars is what I like mostly, and I also equate muscle cars as comfortable cruisers big enough to haul family stuff that make nice V8 sounds and go like stink when pressing on the 'go' pedal. A Mustang or Camaro or a Trans Am, which would be muscle cars too, but smaller ones in the pony car class, are too small for my tastes. A Challenger was and is a tad smaller than the mid size muscle car segment, but a tad bigger than the pony car segment. And since TRUE midsized and full sized muscle cars dont exist anymore, then the Challenger is the one that I drool over all else in the muscle car segment today. I love a Mustang and Camaro too. However, there exists 2 cars that are not really in THE muscle car class, mainly because of price, luxury. These 2 cars are mainly marketed in the LUXURY class and these 2 cars is what I really really like in 2023 besides a Challenger Hellcat. Yes...its a BMW. I would have preferred if the Cadillac was toned down in luxury a tad and marketed and sold as an Oldsmobile. Although I love a Cadillac, Im not a Cadillac type of guy. A Cadillac type of guy is like a 1%er. Im not that. Im a well educated, hard working blue collar type of guy that has done well financially for myself. And Oldsmobile fits THAT bill for me. And alas, Im not a prick either, so a BMW is a no go as well...

Not the same color, but they did add a Green Mist color to the 2023 Escalade ESV-V edition. LOL, @Robert Hall @oldshurst442 WOW, talk about it and GM has now updated their Cadillac web site for 2024 models and we have green colors, not the same as the CT-5 V edition, but here is the Emerald Lake Metallic on the Lyriq with their Slate Interior.

Ouch another FORD Recall. They forgot to put in the proper circuit to allow Trailer Towing. Recall Alert: The 2023 Ford Maverick Can’t Tow (msn.com)

The thing with these last call Challengers is I don’t think they will appreciate. The Charger/Challenger are volume cars that have been around 15 years, the 10 year old V6 cars are worthless. So I don’t see the last call going up in value over time, it isn’t like a Ferrari that was low volume. Secondly, the baby boomers will buy this, and people under 50 could probably care less about this car so who do you sell it to in 10-15 years for profit? And EV’s are fast in a straight line, this car’s one trick is about to be rather common. People will pay for a 90s M3 or M5 because the weight is low. The steering feel and the stuff you can’t get anymore with electric steering and heavy cars.

Catch up when? Ford said they expect to be at 10% margin on EV's in 2026, Tesla was at 20% margin in 2022. Tesla sales are up an estimated 39% YTD in the USA, 46% in China, they are that fastest growing car maker, up 44% last year in a down market, going to be up over 40% this year. The Model Y is the number 4 selling vehicle in the country, on pace for over 400,000 units this year. Mach-E, Hyundai/Kia can't scale at that level and even if they could, I don't think there are 400,000 people that want to buy a $50,000 Hyundai Ionic, or any Hyundai at any price because they never had a car sell that volume. And keep in mind, Chevrolet has 11 vehicles with base price under $40k, Ford has 10, Toyota has 13, Hyundai has 8, and that isn't counting the hybrid version or coupe and convertible as 2 models. That is where those brands do a ton of business. Tesla has zero cars under $40k. Once they hit the price point that the masses can afford their sales probably double or triple. And there is a 500 hp version of the inline six. They could drop that in the Challenger/Charger/300 for an SRT model and it would likely be faster than the 6.4 V8's. Assuming they want to spend the money to engineer it to fit in the car, certify emissions, etc. Not sure if they want to spend any money on a 18 year old platform car at this point, when they can fleet sale Pentastar V6 LH cars a couple more years just to have something to sell.

Tesla is 12 times more valuable than GM, and Tesla made more profit than GM last year, despite having half the revenue. GM's cash on hand is $3 billion more than Tesla's but GM has way more overhead to cover. We are about 5 years away from Tesla outselling Ford and GM globally, about 10 years from Tesla outselling VAG and Toyota, and that could be less if Toyota is slow to EV's which they seem to be.

Used Hellcats right now are $50-85k for the most part, nothing is going to make those go up in value. So I don’t see the last call demon selling for like $200k 20 years from now when there will be a ton of cheap hellcats and prior demons out there All the prior CTS-V’s, Camaros, Shelby Mustangs all depreciated.