gmcbob

I agree again on this. Really coming through and executing on good product and marketing at the same time has proven a very difficult thing for GM to master in recent years, unless its a full size truck. The Japanese have really ate their lunch when it comes to this. I think if they're going to keep Buick as a front wheel drive brand, they need to basically copy what Honda has done with Acura in recent times (in terms of comfort, styling, execution, marketing, etc, etc).

Absolutely. The Saturn commercials really didn't do the "new" lineup justice. They were sort of a nice break from the typical GM advertising, but it just wasn't quite right. They were trying to sell you a $28,000 Aura by marketing the brand in a very Kia sort of way. I'm not sure if this would have worked either, but what if GM would have just focused Saturn on being super nice, affordable small cars only? For example, have the Astra still, but also have a nice small 4 door sedan like the Civic and maybe an even smaller car, like the Corsa? Then market those small cars in a very Honda Fit sort of way - try to capture the Apple Computer, Bay Area types that buy Fits and Yaris'. I think a few of us on this site could have easily thought of some clever ways to do that - but I think GM management in Detroit doesn't think quite out of the box enough for that. Move Saturn showrooms in with Chevy or BPG and market this new group of small Saturns to the hip young crowd (like Scion does). Pack the cars with awesome technology too (NAV screen, blue tooths, etc, etc). Also, make the cars highly customizable too (with stuff right from the dealers). Do the Trek Mountain Bike giveaways (or Wii or PS3 giveaways). Saturn could potentially get the right type of crowd into a GM showroom with clever thinking I believe.

Yeah, this should work I guess. When you really sit back and look at GM as a company, and then look at their competition, you can clearly get a sense that GM was really confused over the last 10 or 12 years on how to adjust to their losing market share. Its really no wonder that they've lost quite a bit of respect with the car buying public. This is a pretty big strategy shift, it's almost like they're shifting midstream and not really following through with their original idea about Saturn, kind of par for the course for this company in recent times. Although I can kind of understand why they think they could have charged a premium for Saturn, and started selling re-badged Opels here as Saturns (and turn Saturn into the "VW" of General Motors), I always had this suspicion it really wouldn't work out. Saturn, for most of its life, has been better known for small, cheap, no frills cars (lets face it, other than those who are die hard car nuts or GM fans know about Saturn's transformation, or care). Most people still think Saturn is basically plastic SL-1s. I applaud the Saturn lineup, I think it's good (I bought a 2008 Vue myself), but GM probably should have done this lineup over at Buick (with Buick styling of course) all along. Even though 30 and 40 somethings may perceive Buick as an old person's car, they still probably look at Buick as more of a "luxury" marque than Saturn ever was. I think it would have been an easier sell. But it doesn't matter. As long as GM continues going along, living in a vacuum and running awful commercials and not knowing how to kiss up to the mainstream media (better PR) so that they stop bashing the company in every single article they write about them, they're doomed. Again, I've said this before - the product is pretty good now, what GM really needs is incredibly smart and professional marketing and PR people to go balls to the wall - and in this area, I think they're horribly out of touch. They need to go right for the juggler with Toyota, Honda, BMW and Lexus, but for some reason, they just simply don't know how to do it. They will NEVER get back your standard issue, college educated professional making $80k a year, driving an Accord, 3 Series or Camry who lives in the South or on the Coasts with the dismal PR and marketing people they have now. NEVER. They could have the best rebadge German Opels ever, and nobody would even realize it because the company does a terrible job at getting the word out on their current product. They have to completely re-think they way they come off as a company - and do it in a smart way (think Apple Computers). Until then, they will continue to lose market share.

GM has made so many bad marketing decisions over the past few years it's truly just unreal. Oh well. I'm actually getting tired of thinking about how screwed up they are. At least if they do dwindle Pontiac down to one model, it sounds like it would be the G8. IMO, if they must do this with Pontiac, the entire brand should basically be all of the variations available of the Zeta car; a G8 Sedan, the G8 Sport Truck and if things started getting a little better for GM, a G8 Coupe.

I'm right there with you on that. It would (or maybe will) be very interesting to see what a lean, mean, post "pre-arranged" bankruptcy GM would look like from a product standpoint.

Yeah, I've seen the ads too and I didn't really like the tone either. Clearly they are trying to subtly take advantage of the absolutely dire situation that the Big 3 are in. It's pretty dirty, but then again, this is "Super-Capitalism" in it's most pure and unadulterated form - a truly American innovation. What's insane about it, is that our politicians and our media are really, really good at duping an already biased public into believing that we should continue to send huge buckets of money over to Asia, let their companies do business here with hardly any strings attached, while basically punishing the companies that essentially created the mass produced automobile as we know it. The whole thing is so depressing on so many levels that I feel like I should start injecting high dosages of Paxil and/or Zoloft just to calm myself down. Admittedly, my wife and I do own a Japanese car (G35), but that's really because my wife wanted the car so bad, and she always "wins" in those kinds of situations. However, when I needed a car for myself back in September, I conscientiously bought the Vue, truly knowing that I didn't want to send any more of my money off to Japan - and to at least help give GM, and our own industrial base a fighting chance. (Ironically, I bought a Mexican made GM product, but I'm not stupid enough to fall into the "Big 3 make cars in Mexico so they really aren't American" trap). As much as I have virtually no faith in our Government (and especially the Bush White House), I still think there's some hope that they'll come through and ensure that GM and Chrysler at least make it into the new year, so the new Congress can help them restructure (outside CH11 of course). If for anything else, to at least keep the unemployment numbers from going a lot higher. I will say this though, despite the really good progress and product coming out of GM over the past few years, they still seem to me like a really, really screwed up company internally. I think they let the UAW walk all over them, they clearly had no sense of urgency on how to manage their debt cost, or any other type of cost. Moreover, their Public Relations department either doesn't exist, or is totally on drugs, their marketing has to be the absolute worst in the business, and they've simply done a completely awful job on getting the word out to the general public on the progress they have made on the product side (just read a lot of the message boards on ABC, FOX News, etc, etc,....people still think GM cars aren't "innovative", etc, etc). When it comes to getting the word out, GM gets a C-, maybe even a D. The commercials on TV and in print need to be more modern. In that area, the imports really do have a much better handle on grabbing people's attention, and attracting buyers that have money. That's an area that GM utterly fails in.

Yeah, I don't know if I would buy from a bankrupt General Motors. That would be a real tough decision.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...suW1jQD952IG000 They're stalling. Don't be too terribly shocked if they just "let the market decide" on this one friends. As we've all known for years, I think the White House has viewed "Detroit" more like a pesky mosquito that won't go away, and not a relevant concern for the country anymore. They're an afterthought for these bozos - and mainly because they probably don't pump near as much money into the political machine of Washington as they once did. Moreover, these people don't give a $h! about the working class, and I think they view the domestic auto industry as more or less a symbol of an "old school", blue collar America that's "out of touch". Plus, they need the UAW workers to make sure the army has enough soldiers in it. Heck, why have a draft when unemployed auto workers will have no other choice than to join the Army. I'm kind of being serious actually. We can spend untold billions on Iraq. Billions on supporting construction firms to build unnecessary power projects and dams in Central American countries, and untold billions on AIG and Citi Bank, but when it comes to an industry that actually produces tangible products right here at home (on a still unprecedented scale), while letting leaner foreign firms operate here with basically little to no restrictions, we utterly politicize it and give them the run around?? Our political and National priorities are really f*cked up. If I were more of a nut job, I'd just build a log cabin in Montana and become a complete hermit. Unfortunately I like my computer and my electricity too much.

It just got way overly politicized - and that's really unfortunate (obvious). Despite what a lot of people in this country believe, this is still a really important industry. If not for how many jobs it provides, then most certainly for how much pride we'd lose (or at least I'd lose) if it completely went under, knowing that the Govt. really could have saved it. I'm convinced, although admittedly I am not a certified public accountant nor have I really ever scrutinized a Fortune 500 company business plan, that based on the companies plans, and if a real, honest, concerted effort were made to get the UAW to bend a little more, that GM could get a loan if there wasn't a "credit crunch" going on. Considering the current environment, these cocksuckers should have taken a more pragmatic approach to figuring out how to at least ensure that these companies were going to remain going concerns. But no...they had to completely use this to work their own political agendas into it. "Screw the workers, screw the entire standard of living for working class people ideal, screw it all". I don't know...it's pretty sad when we can spend untold billions on the War in Iraq, give untold billions of dollars to the very banks that helped get us in this mess in the first place (without a solid plan), yet tell the industry that essentially gave us the middle class, mobility, etc, etc..to basically go and f@#k themselves? We're f@#ked.

Not good http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4B50CL20081212

So this is probably not newsworthy at all if you live up North, but it most certainly is if you're in Houston, Texas. I'm wholeheartedly enjoying a nice, steady snow shower right now. Let's just say that this is very, very rare here.

Yeah, it's looking like our "do nothing" leaders are going to make this a real nail biter, as expected. That Richard Shelby guy sounds like a real ass hole to me. "Free market" my ass. We've given the Japanese and Koreans free reign in our country, by giving them land and tax incentives to set up assembly shops here to avoid tariffs and political backlash, while they pretty much close their doors to us when it comes time to send the Buicks and Fords the other direction. That is a first class f@#kin' folks - and the idiots in Washington either don't see it, don't care, or both. The big picture in this whole debate for me centers around standard of living questions. If Washington ultimately decides to let GM (or Chrysler) fail, then they're essentially saying that our standard of living should be brought down a few notches too. Self serving pricks like Shelby don't even consider these bigger, more important ideas when he gets on the air and starts chastising "Detroit" for their past mistakes and calling any type of help we give them to stay alive as "bridge loans to nowhere". Letting GM fail will ultimately allow the transplants to pay their employees less money. If GM goes down because our fearless "leaders" can't see the forest through the trees, then I say to us as a country: "we're f@#ked".

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home Roh roh.

So let's assume GM doesn't get their money and they file for Ch 11, what do you think will happen over the course of the next 6 months if that happens? Ch 7 liquidation? Maybe a "better off" (financially) company with only Chevrolet and Cadillac (maybe Buick)? The skeptic in me doesn't see Washington coming to an agreement over whether or not any of these companies deserve a loan, nor where that loan money would come from honestly. Who knows, we'll see, but my gut is telling me some very bad days are forthcoming for fans of the auto industry, and more importantly, those directly employed by GM, Chrsyler, and maybe even Ford.

I'm disappointed to see a lot of the GM faithful so down on Saturn. I actually really like my 2008 V6 Saturn Vue a lot, and I'll be sad to see the Saturn brand go away. And this is from a "die hard", "GM Guy" whose Dad worked for Buick Motor Division during the glory days of the 60s/70s/and early 80s, and who has personally driven/owned over the course of his driving life; an 82 Regal, an 86 Parisienne, an 88 (RWD) Cutlass Supreme, a 98 Camaro Z28, a 98 Jimmy and two GMT800s (2001 and 2004 Sierras). I'll miss Saturn, the division that wasn't typical GM, but somehow was still really kind of cool in a way that it only could have been part of GM, at all times throughout it's history. I understand where GM was trying to take the brand recently. I'm disappointed that it didn't wholly catch on in the marketplace, given the fact it's lineup is actually pretty competitive with the imports, and draws a lot of buyers into the GM family that normally consider imports only.

$h!, the newspapers have been doing this for a long time. I remember seeing cartoons like this in the Houston Chronicle at various times throughout the 80s and 90s. It's nothing really that new - I remember people harping about how poorly built American cars were 20 and 30 years ago. I think these types of anti-Detroit, anti-domestic car cartoons and editorials tend to bubble to the surface whenever one of these companies are on the front pages. It's easy fruit to pick, and the morons at the papers get drunk on it all day long. Again, this is why GM, Ford and Chrysler need to have better PR departments. You wouldn't see this kind of $h! if they did. They need to have savvy, competent PR experts camped out at places like CNN, FOX, New York Times, Toronto Star, etc, etc, - taking these people to dinner, talking up their new products and "green" intiatives, etc, etc...I'm sure they either don't do this, or just do a really $h!ty job at it. I think some articles have been written about it by Jerry Flint. (and I remember my late father, who used to work for GM, talking about it too)

I'm assuming that if GM dropped the Saturn brand, I'd at least be able to get warranty work done on my Vue at other GM dealerships like they did with Olds (I certainly hope so). But what will really sucks ass is that it will be worthless on a trade in now. I had a friend that bought an Oldsmobile Alero back in 1999 or 2000 and it tanked in value when they killed Olds. I don't talk to her these days, but I'd be very surprised if she's driving a GM product (unless she still owns that car of course). Incidentally, I actually liked that car - it was a fully loaded black V6 (I think it was a V6). Of course, back in those days I was a GMC/Chevy truck/Camaro/Trans Am big old honkin' V8 rear wheel drive sort of ass hole, but still, it was a cool car for a GM front driver. Ah, good old GM, the one brand (at the time) that actually had some pretty good little mileage cars with generally good overall styling and driving dynamics that appealed to younger professionals - and they killed it. Very, very, very stupid business decision. Yep, one of the dumbest decisions GM has made in the last 20 years, hands down.

Actually, I kind of thought it was sort of funny. But then again, SNL isn't nearly as funny as it was in the 70s, and for a stint in the early 90s. But I digress...It was a little over the top, which is what comedy is supposed to be. I think the gross exaggeration about factories that produce nothing but lemons, etc, etc..I think it was all exaggerated for the sake of comedy honestly.

How can they kill just Pontiac if they're now integrated into the Buick and GMC brands too? IMHO, I still think this "too many brands" idea that our so called "experts" who "analyze" the auto industry keep harping on is just totally stupid. I think GM needs to take advantage of the brands they do have and just go gangbusters making each one of them really bad ass - like they used to be in the 60s. Pontiac's would sell like gangbusters if they had a really cool rear drive sedan based off the CTS platform that was priced correctly - a sedan and a coupe (with current Pontiac styling). I also think GM should have two North American versions of the Commodore - the G8 and the Buick Park Avenue from China - they'd get much more return on their investment that way. And while I'm on the subject of Buick, whatever happened to that really nice convertible concept car from a few years back? Now that should be coming out along with the Camaro, again, they'd get a much better return on their investment. And as far as having a gas mileage car for the PBG group, why not have a Pontiac version of the Astra in there too (instead of the Cobalt)? It's a nicer car that I think would suit the Pontiac lineup pretty well.

I second that - very interesting.

I agree with you on that one for sure.

People like Michael Moore love attention, and this is a sure fire way to get it. The popular sentiment is that that the Big 3 sucks, and he's just living it up on those sentiments. Frankly, I liked Bowling for Columbine, I thought it was thoughtful and interesting, but this guy needs to really pull his ass out of his head and start talking positively about the auto industry.

Wow, it's amazing how stupid the general public is when it comes to our auto industry. Reading some of the comments about this debacle on websites like CNN and the NY Times makes me want to drink myself into a puking mess. So many people out there ranting about how the Big 3 produces junk and how they need to just go bankrupt, etc, etc...I knew it was bad, but I didn't really think it would be as bad as it is. Of course, my guess is that it's probably the same ass holes posting similar comments on multiple message boards. I'm sure that at the end of the day, most Americans simply don't care, and probably don't post anything (and/or don't have a real opinion either way). You know, the way I look at things - even if I wasn't a car nut, and even if I drove an import (well, my wife does), I still would want to give these companies a chance - (we're giving companies like AIG an opportunity, and over the last 8 years we've let Halliburton essentially get all the business it wants thanks to the Iraq War). Common sense would tell me that the Big 3 spend untold billions of dollars on engineering and technology, IT products, parts, people, etc, etc. to make it worth at least trying to prop them up (financially) now so that they can make it through the recession and pop out on the other side. Wouldn't it be cheaper on society, given the size and complexity of these companies, to let them keep going as operating interests, as opposed to having thousands upon thousands of people suddenly on unemployment? Moreover, I think anyone half paying attention, even outside of being a car industry nut, would at least notice that the Big 3 are starting to produce viable, competitive products? I mean, don't people drive around and see the cars around them in traffic? Lets face it, what's the real honest to God difference between a Honda, a Hyundai, a Malibu and a Ford Fusion?? That's right - as Andrew Dice Clay would say, "what's the f@#king difference?" - because there really isn't any. But ask the common Joe on the street these days, and you'd think the Asians are building their cars out of gold or something. Like we've all mentioned before, it's a gigantic perception problem that the Big 3 face, and it's absolutely awful when I see it manifest itself on the comment boards by the general populace. In a strange sort of way, I see simply writing off the Big 3 car makers, their history, and their recent accomplishments almost as a slap in the face for the United States. Helping out the auto industry is another way to help feed the economy from the bottom up, which in some academic circles, is considered paramount to a successful economic recovery for the United States.

Hey, why not take a GM product that utilizes Turn by Turn navigation! They won't get lost then! (We don't want them in too expensive of a vehicle that has a navigation system, then they wouldn't appear like average every day "Joe's") Nah, better take the Caravan - I think it has a Nav screen and it's only a Dodge - very every day Joe type vehicle. And they assuredly won't get lost with that Nav system.

I'd soil my drawers if these guys actually drove a car from Detroit to Washington. Of course, then they'd be criticized for wasting too much time driving instead of trying to run a company. They're going to be criticized by someone no matter what they do. By going in front of Congress, they're now under A LOT of scrutiny. I'd be very careful over the next few weeks with what I did or said in public if I were one of these clowns. Of course they probably should be anyway, but I'd be especially careful now. But if they did drive, maybe they should drive home the point of conserving (money, gas, etc, etc) by carpooling in one vehicle, like a Dodge Caravan or something. Ha! Could you imagine the conversation going on in that car!? hahahahaha! I could see one of them in the back watching a DVD of their actual hearings from last week. They're all snacking on chips and drinking Mountain Dews and whatnot. hahahaha! Why does the image of this make me want to laugh so hard???