G. David Felt
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Posts posted by G. David Felt
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13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:
Base is an LT? That means they really aren't selling "base" models of the Bolt yet, if ever. Other Chevy cars come in L and LS trims below LT.
As I posted in the Mileage thread, they have the LT and Premier packages, so would this Premier package not be equal to the LTZ packages of other similar sized auto's?
That is my thinking on why I figure the cost would be about $3K more or so. Bolt LT & Premier packaged auto's would be equal to similar equipped LT & LTZ auto's.
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Based on other packages on other Chevy auto's, makes one think that this will end up at about $3,000 more for the next level up.
So were looking at about $40,495, unless Chevy wants to make sure to be able to advertise a fully loaded BOLT at under $40K, then I would say $39,995 makes sense for a fully loaded BOLT.
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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:
The Model 3 is supposed to do 0-60 in 6 seconds. Of course that is their claim and we don't know what the actual car will do, but 6 seconds puts it in line with ATS 2.0, C300, 328i, A4 etc, cars that are around $40k. If it is sized like those cars and performs like them, Tesla can make a compelling argument.
Bolt has been stated to be below 7 sec in 0-60, everyone that has driven it says it feels like a 5 or 6 sec car to 60, so this Reality FWD CUV is equal to a Vaporware RWD 4 door Sedan.
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Cool, I hope GM is listening as they should be offering it in their lineup also.
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Looks like a compass, hopefully they will have a plug-in hybrid or pure ev in this thing. No need for the Diesel.
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12 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:
I so wish it was my new car. That quote is of Randy Probst and his feelings on the GT350R.
What are your thoughts if it was a pure RWD / AWD EV Pony car?
315 mile battery pack with 420HP and 560lbs of torque from Zero all the way to 10,000 RPM!
This would be awesome to have in either a Mustang or Camaro pony car.
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10 minutes ago, ccap41 said:
The only difference between the 3 and Bolt are FWD vs RWD, right? Why can't they be compared? If one metric difference is key why would you compare a 100mile range car to a 240 range car?
Right now they are all in their own leagues, for the most part. They have to be to carve our their own niche as to not even have a competitor and own the segment.
I understand the point your making, but the Tesla 3 is Vaporware at this point. In 2018 or 2019 when ever they actually get delivered, then you can compare them. At this point lets talk about what is reality. BOLT, Leaf, etc. there are plenty of current auto's to compare that are actually at the point of being built like the BOLT or in production like the Leaf. We actually have EPA numbers to compare rather than vaporware statements.
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2 hours ago, FordCosworth said:
" Ladies and gentlemen, meet your new Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R sales rep. Buy one. You will not go wrong. I am in love with this car. It just works: the level of control, the balance, the stability without understeer. "
Glad you love your new car. You have your work cut out for you as over the weekend on my road trip I just got back from, it was amazing to hear so many millennials talk about Mustang and Camaro as old people cars reliving their youth.
I just got back from the greater LA area from the burial of my 96 1/2 year old grandma and it was very interesting to listen to my nieces and nephews and other california youth talk about how dated and out of touch these cars are.
One thing that was clear was the styling was still acceptable, but the powertrain thing was just dated. I did hear a very strong debate that GM or Ford could kill it if they took the Tesla S AWD Ludicrous mode power train and put it in one of these pony cars.
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Sad, this is one area that is as stated, so out dated. Anyone should be able to sell direct if they want too.
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On 9/18/2016 at 8:28 AM, smk4565 said:
I have to imagine the average income of a Tesla buyer is over $100,000, they don't need a tax credit to make the car affordable. I read a survey that said 89% of Tesla buyers would still buy the car even if there was no tax credit.
Chevy buyers look for a deal though, it is a value brand customer that wants cash back or a low lease payment. A Bolt with no incentive is a hard sell, Tesla doesn't need it.
I have seen that the higher the income, the cheaper they become and that not having a rebate in the future will only hurt Tesla Sales. Just read the Tesla Forums and you will see how many comment on how they love their car and got it for the $7500 rebate.
The rebate makes a major impact for at least 1/3 of these buyers. 2/3rds of the buyers would get a less featured auto if no rebate and clearly 1/3 like you said would buy no matter what.
End result is that the loss of rebates in the future will affect the sales and I expect 1/3 of the Tesla 3 buyers to cancel and ask for a refund when they realize the car is not available for $35,000 before rebate and that the rebate amount of $7,500 is gone.
Another 1/3 of these people are looking at getting the car and reselling it at a markup as they think they can profit on it. But by the time Tesla delivers, I doubt the Tesla 3 will have the appeal after so many other OEMs deliver their EV auto.
Back on BOLT!
In reviewing the colors, I am disappointed that their is no Metallic flake Forest Green or Jade green or any proper Green color to represent that this is an Awesome Green Auto!
Wonder Why GM is not offering Green?
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On 9/16/2016 at 8:43 AM, smk4565 said:
But the Model 3 is a larger car than the Bolt and will be made for performance. Tesla could make a Model 3 for $50k that does 0-60 in 4 seconds. That is M3 performance. That is how they will get sales. Toyota could make a 200 mile range Yaris EV for $40k and no one would buy that either.
Now your just making things up. The base Tesla 3 is RWD auto with unknown 0-60 speed and could actually be slower than the BOLT.
Tesla 3 is supposed to have an option for AWD, Ludicriss mode, etc. but since right now it is vaporware with no firm facts, lets keep to the facts and that is that the BOLT is a game changer that no one else has at this time not even your coveted MB.
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On 9/13/2016 at 5:43 PM, smk4565 said:
The Leaf isn't a good looking car, in fact it is an ugly car, that hurts it sales just as much as the range does. The Bolt isn't a very good looking car either, it looks kind of like a lifted Sonic hatchback. Tesla makes a good looking car that can accelerate like a Lamborghini, that's why it sells.
I think 200 miles of range is enough to squash range anxiety, most people are not driving 200 miles in a day, you'd have to spend 4 hours in the car to get to that. The Bolt has the range it needs, I don't think it has the looks. When the Tesla comes, it will look cool, and the Tesla brand name is like Apple when it comes to phones. People just want it.
Apple products suck outside of the graphic design industry and Sheeple who want a company to tell them what they can and cannot do. Tesla is no different and their concept Tesla 3 is as BUTT Ugly as the S series or the Steroid X. Only thing going for the X is the funky Gull Wing Doors.
I take a Bolt every day over the Tesla 3 concept.
Hopefully instead of comparing apples to oranges, you would debate it on a level field like Bolt to Leaf and acknowledge that not everyone likes Apple, wants Apple. Same with Tesla.
I am very glad Tesla came along to push the others, but their products do nothing for me and millions of others also. Seem 400,000 Sheeple love to have their money taken from them for years with nothing back but a vapor ware promise.
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Found this interesting statistic in the APTA reports:
- 60-foot Articulated Bus: 37,500 average miles per bus
- 45-foot “Compo” Bus: 18,750 average miles per bus
- 40-foot Bus: 48,952 average miles per bus
- 30-foot Bus: 13,833 average miles per bus
- Less-than-30-foot Bus: 40,086 average miles per bus
Average Transmission lasts about 250,000 miles
Average Diesel engine lasts about 3-500,000 miles depending on environment. Less on the east coast, longer in the south.
The National Transit report especially the last two pages are very eye opening when you see what the actual cost is to the taxpayers versus the fares recovered.
This report shows that the national average of bus cost for Diesel is $14.43 per mile. Multiple this by the average miles driven per but type above gives you the following:
- 60-foot - $541,125 per year which seems crazy
- 45-foot - $270,562.50, still crazy cost
- 40-foot - $706,377.36
- 30-foot - $199,610.19
So if I am reading the last couple pages of the National Transit report right, this covers the cost of fuel, maintenance to the bus, wage to the workers, bus driver, mgmt. etc.
I would be pushing to go EV as fast as possible as the reduction in maintenance cost alone would be huge I would think.
41 minutes ago, ccap41 said:
Very cool, that does show good reason to change out the Diesel ASAP on top of the reduction in climate change emissions.
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Just found that the APTA does actually keep records on costs. Most current is for 2015, in which 4,434 buses were reported purchased with an average transaction cost per Diesel bus of $504,446. Compared to these EV Buses at $740,000. But the maintenance cost is greatly reduced.
You can see all the various reports here:
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1 minute ago, ccap41 said:
The math should be do-able minus the start-up building a charging infrastructure that would probably be the most costly for a fleet of buses.
Well...nvm.. No clue how many miles they drive daily/yearly to calculate anything.
Just found this 2012 cost of Clean Diesel versus CNG which shows while the CNG buses cost 50-80K moreover a diesel bus, the savings in fuel cost yearly made a huge difference in the overall cost of running them and maintenance cost that went down.
http://www.catf.us/resources/publications/files/20120227-Diesel_vs_CNG_FINAL_MJBA.pdf
Based on reviewing this report, it would tend to imply with the even lower maintenance cost of electric buses, costs should continue to drop making the slightly higher cost of these EV buses still a bargain.
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10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:
I'm curious how much a normal bus costs. I'm sure the savings in diesel will certainly help offset that, but there is likely a huge start up cost to install enough chargers to get all of the buses charged up for the morning rush.
Granted cost have gone up but this report done in 2004 based on 2000 costs for going to alternative energy had the following listed:
http://www.eesi.org/files/eesi_hybrid_bus_032007.pdf
- Diesel - $300,000
- CNG Bus $319,000
- Diesel-Electric bus $385,000
I found this story on About Money that shows that in 2011 Chicago Transit Authority was paying $600,000 per Diesel bus. North Carolina in 2011 was paying $714,000 per public Diesel / Electric Hybrid.
So based on this information, I would say $740,000 per EV Bus should recover costs much faster than the Diesel / CNG / Hybrid buses.
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I know some love this product line and look, but for me, I have to say it is one of the ugliest I have ever seen.
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@Drew Dowdell Thanks for all the help in the new system.
@ccap41 Agree, their fast charge system Proterra has that charges from the top of the bus should allow these buses to quickly replace old dated Diesel and then as the Hybrids wear out, be replaced by these. Hopefully in 10 years we will no longer have smelly loud public transit.
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Check out the video to see Proterra's Quick Charger system. Very cool in terms of being able to quickly charge and be on your way for a bus.
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All-electric zero-emission that can finally replace all petro powered buses in North America was unveiled at the Annual APTA (American Public Transit Association) meeting in Los Angeles. Proterra which is known to have launched the first fleet of alternative fuel buses has pushed American engineering with over $130 million in private equity funding to produce a true replacement for all diesel / alternative fuel buses. The Catalyst E2 bus series hit the new milestone at the Michelin's Laurens proving grounds. A 600+ mile passenger free track run translates into 350 miles of continuous real world driving according to Proterra's CEO Ryan Popple.
Proterra states that bus fleets said they could fully replace fossil fuel buses if they had buses that could cover routes for a single day up to 350 miles fully loaded with people. Proterra achieved this challenge by using carbon fiber and increasing energy density in the buses battery pack. Proterra battery packs come in choices of 440 KWh to 660 KWh size. The base model bus with a 440 KWh battery pack is what was used to set their new world record for electric distance in a bus. These battery packs are 6x more than the recently announced Tesla S/X P100D. These batteries can handle sustained quick charging plus they can also use the industry standard J1772 CCS plug-in chargers.
The first 34 buses are scheduled to be delivered to Foothill Transit Authority in Los Angeles County this fall. Reno, Nevada and 11 other cities including Seattle, Washington will follow in 2017 with taking delivery of these pure long distance electric buses. Proterra expects to deliver over 300 buses in 2017.
Safety first was more than just a slogan at Proterra, with this guiding principle, the Catalyst bus was engineered from the beginning as the battery packs are located outside the passenger compartment. The are liquid temperature controlled and incorporated with both active and passive safety features. They are also ruggedized with reinforced enclosures and a safety barrier between the batteries and the passenger compartment. The buses are also build with Mobileye crash avoidance technology and using plenty of impact absorbing carbon fiber materials.
Proterra's main competitor is Chinese based BYD with production facilities in California who also aims to deliver EV buses. However, BYD buses will only have a range of 160 to 200 miles compared to Proterra's. California has help fund both Proterra and BYD development, with the requirement that the engineering and production of the buses be done in California.
The recent Volkswagen emissions scandal is cited as a reason cities are no longer wanting diesel buses. They also point out that the public is asking for much cleaner transit solutions.
Proterra states that customers want a environmentally friendly bus, that does not smell, has much reduced noise pollution, and makes for a more comfortable trip. Their $740,000 buses depending on configuration was a hit at APTA with many transit authorities asking for more information especially on the east coast which has lagged behind moving to cleaner alternative energy buses and runs some of the oldest bus fleets in the country. An example of how quiet these buses are, the Proterra Catalyst is only 57 dB lower than normal conversation at 60 dB much less a diesel bus 72 dB, Formula 1 Racecar 115 dB, and a Jet plane taking off at 140 dB.
Per Proterra own web site, efficiency is the goal and with that you have proof in the cost to run an EV bus as follows:
- Proterra Catalyst - 21.4 MPGe @ average of 19 cents per mile
- CNG - 3.27 MPG at 74 cents per mile
- Diesel - 3.86 MPG at 84 cents per mile
- Hybrid - 4.58 MPG at 63 cents per mile.
Quoting Mass Transit Mag who was at the APTA meeting:
Compelled by a total cost of ownership significantly lower than fossil fuel-based alternatives, transit agencies across the U.S. agree that diesel’s dominance is waning, giving way to the economic and environmental benefits of battery-electric mass transportation:
- J. Barry Barker, executive director, Transit Authority of River City: “TARC now has largest deployment of Proterra battery-electric buses east of the Mississippi. Providing both environmental benefits and cost savings, these buses are a symbol of Louisville’s sustainability efforts. We are proud of these positive impacts and to call Proterra a partner, as they pass this key milestone in their journey as the foremost transport innovator in the world.”
- Doran Barnes, executive director at Foothill Transit: “We just surpassed one million miles of revenue service with our battery-electric Proterra fleet, and we’re looking forward to many more miles to come. Since our first EV bus procurement with Proterra in 2010, we knew that zero-emission buses were the future of mass transit. Now, with the new Catalyst E2, this vision is a reality. We’re excited by the possibilities of an all-electric future.”
- Jonathan Church, administrator at Worcester Regional Transit Authority (WRTA): “More and more, we’re witnessing our neighbor agencies consider all-electric buses, as they see how well our Proterra buses have weathered some of the ugliest Northeast snow storms. We look forward to continuing our partnership with Proterra as their technology continues to expand within North America.”
We have previously covered early versions of Proterra EV buses. These early buses achieved 23 miles per charge and have become popular with inner city routes are being outclassed by this new generation of EV Bus. Proterra states their EV buses to date have logged over 2.5 million miles of trouble free use on city streets, reducing fuel use by 540,000 gallons of diesel and reducing emissions by 10 million pounds of carbon not released into the planet atmosphere.
Ryan Popple, CEO of Proterra says, "The question is no longer who will be an early adopter of this technology, but rather who will be the last to commit to a future of clean efficient and sustainable mobility." Proterra believes they have broken down the final barrier to widespread market adoption of EV buses. Proterra, leaving Diesel in the past!
Source: Proterra Press Release
Press Release on Page 2
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Could it be that GM does not think people will take the BOLT on road trips compared to the VOLT? Good question to ask GM.
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That is awesome, I was averaging 30-40K a year for 4 years straight on my Escalade, then got a job in the city and the company paid me to use mass transit. I have put only 15K miles on it in the last 4 years. Parked in my garage so safe, dry and clean, taking it on a 5 day road trip starting tomorrow. Love the Escalade for long distance road trips. Going from Seattle to LA and Back.
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This totally rocks as the day of EV is coming upon us. I can so see them doing a battery pack to compete against Tesla, so 300+ is what I consider a requirement in the Ultra Luxury segment like this.
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3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:
It doesn't look like it offers active cruise control.... if it had that, I would spring for it.
Wonder if that will be a 2018 add on?
This totally rocks as the day of EV is coming upon us. I can so see them doing a battery pack to compete against Tesla, so 300+ is what I consider a requirement in the Ultra Luxury segment like this.
Chevrolet News:Its Official! 2017 Chevrolet Bolt To Offer 238 Miles of Range
in Chevrolet
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BOLT having LT and Premier packages makes me think pricing will be like the Trax's with their LT & LTZ packages.