oldshurst442

From your own link: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/competition-matters/2014/04/who-decides-how-consumers-should-shop Michael replied on Apr 25, 2014 12:22PM PERMALINK The FTC did not write this. It is the sole opinion of 3 employees of the FTC. And if you think this is the best way to buy a car, go for it. Let me know how it works out when you're paying $1500 more than you needed to because the manufacturer won't negotiate. Also, let me know how you like those cars that are put out by narrow minded engineers that don't fit the real world because they've had no input from dealers in the real world who are listening to their customers. And the link mentions Tesla. But Tesla has raised their prices ten fold since this shyte was wrttien By: Andy Gavil, Debbie Feinstein, and Marty Gaynor | Apr 24, 2014 11:00AM 2014 is when this shyte has been written. The Model S from Tesla has NEVER been discounted. The Model S came to market in 2012. 10 years ago yet the car has NEVER been MORE expensive to buy... yeah...I see a great future for us consumers when we have to deal with a direct to consumer company such as Tesla when just software upgrades happen and a consumer has to pay MORE for a 10 year old model than when it first came out. THAT shyte you posted aint helped you one iota, buddy...

You DO have a choice. SEVERAL. #1 choice: Haggle price and price hike. Like usual when buying from a dealership. #2 choice. Do NOT buy from that dealership if the dealership refused YOUR offer and counteroffer. They have that right as YOU also. #3 Choice. Go to another dealership. Repeat. Haggle price and price hike. If THAT fails, ask yourself why 2 dealerships refused to do business. If it didnt fail, you just bought a new car at a price that YOU deem fair... Winner winner chicken dinner. #4 Choice if 2 dealerships refused to do business with you. You also have the right to NOT buy a new car. Buy used. You will have to deal with a price hike there also as cars right about now are experiencing this craze. Haggle price on used car. You will eventually find a car to suit your transportational and financial needs one way or other from one dealership or the next or from a private seller. But the private seller will ALSO try to price gouge you. Yeah...you are a believer in Toyoter reliability. That private seller will up sell you how reliable a Camry is especially his since it was only driven on Sundays to church... Hey, you might have paid MORE than you wanted, but if YOU have exhausted all other avenues and to NOT find a seller of a car more in line as to what the prices were before Covid and the chip shortgage, maybe YOU have to ask yourself why that is... Maybe its because it wasnt all greed? But, if you DID find a place where the price hike was waived off, hey, you just exercised YOUR right to buy a commodity to what YOU deem is right and fair. But, please refrain from believing that a business does NOT have the right to price its commodities as how they see fit. Now...with Uber, they asked ME if I wanted to join THEM. I did NOT go to them. I exercised my right to tell them to phoque off! I havent campaigned that they need to go away. They DO supply a service and a need. For a fee. The fee is fair to what they charge the customer. What I dont find fair is what THEY want to as a fee for their service when it comes to MY end. If a business agrees to that 5% or 7% or whatever THEY negotiate, GREAT! But as when negotiations arise between two entities, there will be a winner and a loser on the money side of things. And a small family business gets it in the ass as a small family restaurant cant afford its own car delivery service but needs it because the big corporate restaurant has partnered up with Uber. Partnering up with Uber with a shytty deal and the small family restaurant LOSES money on that deal and its the restaurant that has to deal with the risks and expenses. The buying and preparing of the food. The paying of the bills. Gas and electricity and payroll. The employee insurances. The wear and tear of the equipment. The bloody wrapping and bags for take-out. The mistake if the delivery driver made a delivery mistake and the restaurant owner has to redo the order... Remember, the delivery driver is NOT the employee of the restaurant to say thaat its the restaurant's fault, yet if the driver phoques up, the restaurant has to deal with the mistake both with a redo of the order AND the reputation being sullied because the customer doesnt really give a shyte WHO made the mistake. The customer only knows that he ordered from a certain restaurant and his ordered was flubbed. Sure, there is a rating system where the customer rates the driver and the restaurant AND the OWNER of the restaurant ALSO has the option to rate the driver...but as an OWNER of a restaurant...I dont have the time to deal with a 3rd party contractor to deliver MY food to MY customer. its a money loser and a time waster for me, at MY restaurant... Uber offers me what? A delivery service for 7% of the price that I made for MY profits to cover MY expenses... i have the RIGHT to refuse such shyte. Uber doesnt have those risks. I do. Its a smart business plan. But I see through the sleaziness... Other family owned restaurants dont really have the choice to be leached off of Uber... So...when YOU say its all about the choices... Yeah...I heard YOU loud and clear. But you still wanna continue to shovel that shyte?

Your words ARE meaningless as you havent offered ANYTHING of substance... Saying dealerships are greedy and just repeating that is SMK levels of delusions. Keep at it. And about the downvotes. Just repaying you in kindness...

Sure, Canada's laws allow for this to happen. Still sleazy as phoque. But you can complain that a clearly written price hike is scummy and greedy. Sure. As far as I know, and I havent heard or seen otherwise, I havent seen ANY dealership NOT respect its legal obligations towards its employees and the State, Province or country they do business in. I guess I view those things differently than either of you... Now that this conversation has run its course, lets actually talk about Alternative fuels... https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/07/05/canadas-laws-allow-uber-lyft-to-avoid-paying-as-much-as-135m-a-year-in-taxes-says-advocacy-group.html Ride-hailing giants Uber and Lyft could be avoiding up to $135 million in Canadian taxes each year by classifying their drivers as contract workers instead of employees and using other legal tactics to reduce their financial obligations, according to a new report. The report, which was published by the progressive non-profit advocacy group Canadians for Tax Fairness (C4TF) and shared exclusively with the Star ahead of its release Monday, concluded it’s impossible to know for certain how much the companies pay because of a lack of transparency in the Canadian tax system. But using publicly available data, the organization estimates the two companies avoid up to $81 million in payroll taxes as a result of their controversial decision to categorize drivers as independent contractors. Additionally, C4TF estimates the firms’ federal and provincial corporate income tax obligations total about $54 million each year, but it’s not clear how much of that amount they pay, if any, because companies operating internationally are not required to publicly report earnings or tax payments on a country-by-country basis, allowing them to shift profits around the world to lessen their tax burden.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/04/amazon-had-to-pay-federal-income-taxes-for-the-first-time-since-2016.html

Should I laugh at that as how you laughed when I answered your question as to why I am defending delearships when I answered that I am a business owner? To which Surreal really hasnt caught on and thinks I am being hypocritical on pointing out yours and his hypocrisy of the weird stance you both take on from really really sleazy middlemen such as Amazon and Uber. Contrary to what you and he thinks, I dont think Uber and Amazon shouldnt exist. If there is a service that they provide and somebody is willing to hire their services, more power to them. But there is a BIG difference in a CLEARLY marked sticker price for a price hike and a HIDDEN business tactic from ordinary people that makes Uber and especially Amazon billions of dollars of profit. No cap on profit making. But sleazy as phoque especially when Amazon and Uber skirt their responsibilities regarding their employees and them paying their taxes. A dealership cant get away from not paying their employees a wage and they are faced with tax fraud if they dont pay their taxes. Amazon literally does not pay taxes in all the countries they do business in, including the US of A...

LOL My facts are on the up and up. Its you that has a weird outlook on middlemen.

I havent watched the movie Lake Placid. Heard of it, never seen it. Maybe I watch it someday. I will look out for it. Sharks in Greece and Italy? Yeah! They dont bother me as I know there are dolphins that will save me from them. THIS is my justification for not being afraid of the Mediterranean. And yes, Im being serious! Quebec lakes...look how scary this fish looks. It swims fast and it could spear me instead of me spearing it. And you know...Canadian lakes and some American ones too, have this scary thing lurking in the deep. Sure its nice and cute when its this small But the damn thing grows. 20 feet. As long as a freakin' Great White. And let me tell you, there arent any dolphins around... This one is from B.C. But look at the boat and the name of the company and you tell me why I shouldnt shyte my pants. LOL It even breaches the water like a Great White. I am being funny though. I aint scared. But my creepiness for lake water is very real for whatever reason. Greek yogurt that tastes like roasted marshmallow? Sounds intriguing. Only in America would they think of something like that!

Support a direct to customer sales model to eliminate the middleman but also support a middleman to the middleman delivery service because those business practices are somehow better for the consumer. PS: I didnt know the wave of the future of a fast food hot dog joint was having UBER and DoorDash as a delivery service... Restaurants like mine HAVE a choice. And the choice NOT to lose money on a shytty deal is what I made. And NO! I havent LOST business because I dont have UBER EATS or DoorDash. Its fast food hotdogs... There IS no need to deliver those. it will ALWAYS BE a money losing proposition to deliver those. Even more when a leach of a company asks 7% of MY charge as THEY were MY partner... I however did spend thousands on breaking down walls and widening some parts to the restaurant to have a drive-through. Best thing my (ex) partner and I have ever done with the business...

The phoque are you talking about? We are talking about greedy middlemen. I gave you an example. All you do is laughy and downvote. You downvoted Balthy's post because you have such a hard on for denying dealerships... His post made you look silly. My post about Uber and Amazon with the explanations on why Uber is a leach of a middleman to YOU as a customer, to its "employees" that are NOT employees and to a ME as a business owner just about cements you guys have a very hypocritical and warped view about middlemen...

@surreal1272 Why are you laughing? First off, I phrased it wrong, Uber wanted 7% then 5% of the totality of the bill charged to the customer. Uber then charges a fee to its customer, MY CUSTOMER, for the delivery... Uber double dips and charges ITS customer, ME and MY customer, a fee to cover its expenses... Fair? Why yes! It seems fair until you analyze how shytty that deal is for me... I COULD charge a fee to MY customer the 7% or 5% to offset MY fee that I have incurred to UBER for a delivery service. But then the customer, all HE does is just pay fees through his ass... Uber NEEDS to cover its expenses... Yeah...lets see what its expenses are... Gasoline prices? NO! NOT THEIR CAR. Wear and tear on the delivery car? NO! NOT THEIR CAR. Pay roll? NO! They dont pay their employees as they do NOT have any employees. They are a middleman service to that to. They say they are a contractor helping me and the customer have a meeting so I could supply a hot dog and the delivery guy to deliver said hot dog to the customer. They pay NO hourly wage. Just an amount of money based the number of deliveries made. They pay NO employee insurance, no uniform, supply nothing to the driver... And yet, @Robert Hall and you too, since you find it funny, you both find an OBVIOUS greed filled middleman as no problem... I, if I agreed to UBER EATS, I have to buy the unmade product, I have to supply the energy to make the product, I have to PAY somebody to make the product, I have to deal with the wear and tear of MY equipment, pay my electric and gas bill, and I have to GIVE Uber 7% of the bill of MY customer, because HE wants MY hamburger, I have to GIVE UBER 7% (or 5% when they 'negotiated' a second time) of MY bill that I CHARGE MY CUSTOMER... You guys have a very warped opinion on what is a greedy middleman... Uber does NOT support my business. Uber LEACHES off of businesses..

You missed... I added this part to it: I know... I was approached by UBER start deliveries by UBER EATS. I told them to go phoque themselves... They wanted as high as a 7% profit sharing from me with the delivery that they make on TOP of what THEY charge the customer for the delivery... They wanted to become MY partner without taking the phoquing risks of the actual business I worked hard to build on... Then they came with an offer of 5%. McDonald's gives them something like 2% or lower... But McDonald's is also a HUGE business that can take that kind of thievery. Its just a additional advertising convenience for McDonalds to have DoorDash and Uber Eats deliver for them... You have NO qualm to pay for a service and support a middleman like that though. As long as YOU benefit from it. But the price you pay for that service... Its worth it to you. Its a very hypocritical stance you got going on there. But you probably dont know how high of a percentage UBER and Amazon collect from the business to delivery. But maybe you do, but you feel that THAT kind of profit making is justified as long as it benefits you... Very hypocritical... Maybe that kind of percentage does NOT affect big business like a huge retail grocery store or a McDonald's, but that kind of middleman KILLS the family owned business... Very very hypocritical stance and business practices you support...

@Robert Hall Again with the laughy thing. LOL What @balthazar said is true. I wanted to say something like that but I was trying to tie it in with dealerships. I wanted to say something like middlemen and small business is the backbone of America. But I do realize that dealerships are no longer small business. So I refrained from the obvious connection that Balthy obviuosly had no problems making. And rightfully so for him pointing out the idiocy of yours and @surreal1272 take on it... But then again, grocery store chains are no longer small business either. We could buy our groceries at farmer's markets. You know, cut out the middleman... But some of us also buy our groceries from Amazon based delivery services... I know... I was approached by UBER start deliveries by UBER EATS. I told them to go phoque themselves... They wanted as high as a 7% profit sharing from me with the delivery that they make on TOP of what THEY charge the customer for the delivery... They wanted to become MY partner without taking the phoquing risks of the actual business I worked hard to build on... Then they came with an offer of 5%. McDonald's gives them something like 2% or lower... But McDonald's is also a HUGE business that can take that kind of thievery. Its just a additional advertising convenience for McDonalds to have DoorDash and Uber Eats deliver for them... If you want to talk about thieving, greedy, evil middlemen, maybe we should be talking about Amazon and UBER and DoorDash and shyte like that...

And the truth comes out... Your argument is NOT about greedy dealerships... Haggling or not, You can STILL choose to buy a product or not... And its your RIGHT to haggle the price of your NEW car. Why do you want to eliminate that right you have? Wouldnt it be great if we could haggle the price of whatever object of materialism we want? Yes its a hassle to haggle, but it does benefit our wallets. A fixed price and you are screwed. Anyway, you dont HAVE to haggle the price of your new car. Just agree to pay whatever the dealership is asking of you. Same as if you would if you bought from Tesla...

skipping over what? A dealership is a business for the millionth time. It does not matter if they are the middleman or not. Price hikes happen. Expenses of any kind, imaginary or not, are to be passed unto the consumer. You brought up Tesla. I pointed out that they have hiked prices up BEFORE the dealerships have and BEFORE Covid struck to which @Robert Hall says that is different. Different from what I asked. All you and Robert have done is just sides skirt the question as to why its different stating that dealerships are middlemen and they are evil and Tesla is a manufacturer. THAT does NOTHING for YOUR side of the argument. Greed? If a price hike happens from a manufacturer, then its going to be passed down to the dealer which then is going to be passed down to the consumer when there is a middleman. If a price hike happens from a direct to consumer manufacturer, the price hike is passed down to the consumer. The dealership is a business therefore the % might be higher than the direct to consumer model. The dealership HAS to make a profit. Its a BUSINESS... What I gather is that you and Robert do not want certain types of business models to exist. But be careful what you wish for. Direct to consumer business models may not be as efficient or less profit oriented that you guys think they may be and a savings for the consumer maay never happen. You cant haggle the price on any Tesla. Prices go up but it seems never go down. A software upgrade on a new thing that Tesla wants to unlock and the consumer pays for it with a price hike. Tesla had a lower KW/H , eliminated that battery option and offered a bigger battery locked to the lower KW/H battery. People wanting to pay for the lower KW/H battery paid a lower price for it and the people wanting to pay for the full KW/H paid a higher priice tag. Fair? Yes? Problem is, both options got a higher price tag after 6 or so months. Software. Its just software. Funny how Tesla prices have never come down... Its just software... The Model S is a 10 year old car. Its price tag has gone up and NEVER discounted in 10 years. Mostly software upgrades but no clearance sales... Justified for the hardware upgrades, but software upgrades. And why no option to offer consumers not to opt for software that is not wanted to counterbalance any price hikes? And then to boot, price hikes whenever the "market" demands it so and its OK for Tesla because its a direct to consumer model. THAT should be the OPPOSITE of what you guys propose... And funny how Tesla has NO clearance sales... Supply and demand? Funny how THAT works in Tesla's greed but it shouldnt for a dealership... Just be honest about why you dont like dealerships and cut out the bullshyte saying dealerships are greedy for price market adjustments.

Dude... Its a BUSINESS. In a FREE MARKET ECONOMY. Greed has NOTHING to do with it. Its all about...BUSINESS. Haggle the new adjusted price. You still have that right. They refuse, you could go into another dealership. Haggle THEIR price adjustment. If they also refuse. Ask yourself a question as to why in the world would a business, 2 in fact, REFUSED a transaction... If there is a refusal on their part, its NOT because of greed. If one agrees to haggle and eliminate the price adjustment for you, you have NOT given YOUR business to a business that price gouges you. Maybe. Again, you really do NOT know why that particular business has opted to raise their prices and REFUSE to haggle on the price adjustment to sell to you. It could be about greed. it could be that the dealership cant afford to sell lower. It could be many things. But if HE refuses too many transactions because consumers are savvy NOT to buy from that place or because that dealership cant make money off their cars FROM MSRP pricing, than that dealership WILL close its doors. So...no matter how much whining you are doing, its just business at the end of the day. Nothing personal to you, the consumer. Just business. Dont buy. Its simple. Michael replied on Apr 25, 2014 12:22PM PERMALINK The FTC did not write this. It is the sole opinion of 3 employees of the FTC. And if you think this is the best way to buy a car, go for it. Let me know how it works out when you're paying $1500 more than you needed to because the manufacturer won't negotiate. Also, let me know how you like those cars that are put out by narrow minded engineers that don't fit the real world because they've had no input from dealers in the real world who are listening to their customers. You are the one that is downvoting the facts. All I here form you is just hurt feelings that you have about dealerships...

Wrong. A dealerships HAS expenses. So does a manufacturer. Those expenses get passed on to the consumer. Nobody could make a judgement call on what prices need to be made. Only an owner could see fit what the market could sustain and what the business could sustain regarding price. The consumer has final say with his wallet. Words, like what you are doing here is MEANINGLESS... No. But I aint crying about greed and how the middleman is corrupt. Wah wah wah. Ill say it again. In a free market economy, a business has the right as they see fit, to price an item that they sell. The consumer has the right to NOT buy. Since in a free market economy there is no cap placed on profit, then the consumer has all the right in the world to vote with his wallet if he buys or not... Its simple as that.

I thought you wouldnt respond, but you responded, and caught my post before I altered it and but made this post... No its not different. YOU want to call the middleman corrupt. But it aint. YOU are arguing this with emotion. Do not do that. Its cut and dry. Tesla is a business. So is a dealership. Regardless if a dealership is a middleman or not. You may want the dealership model to go away. And that is fine. But you wont be getting rid of greed. Its a free market system. The system itself can be corrupt and anyone doing business in this system can be influenced by greed whether the middleman is cut or not... But... You ASSUMING that dealership price market adjustments are pure greed is flawed and wrong and you simply dont have ALL the information at hand to make such a judgement call... It may or may not be. You do NOT know for sure UNLESS you are the owner paying the bills or the accountant doing the numbers...

But...but... Cutting out the middleman USUALLY means that prices that YOU pay as a consumer should be LOWER because their is no middleman making a profit from the consumer. Tesla has no middleman, yet Tesla has raised their prices directly to the consumer.

.

So what is the difference? Aside from whatever hurt feelings you have from dealerships. Leave that argument aside. We are solely talking about price... Ill repeat, SOLELY on what is written on a sticker price it is CLEARLY written. There are NO shenanigans... WHAT is the difference between that above...and this below? https://www.thestreet.com/tesla/news/tesla-has-raised-prices-again-here-are-the-changes-tsla @surreal1272 @Robert Hall @David You guys have high fived each other...now that you have finished high fivin' yourselves, its time to actually discuss with rationality and not with emotions... Tesla is NOT a dealership ownership group. Its a business. They reserve the right to hike prices as they see fit yet you wanna block the dealership ownership groups from doing the same. Why? Discuss. Thank-you. I have stated MY stance SEVERAL times on what I think businesses and consumers could and should do in a free market economy...

Different scenario and argument. Its the dealership ownership groups that want to control what it is they want to control and in THAT regard, I will agree to your point of view on that. However, Musk's Tesla market adjusts their prices and RAISES the price more FREQUENTLY than what dealerships have done during Covid. In fact, Tesla has RAISED its prices SEVERAL times BEFORE Covid on a freakin' whim... Have you been vocal about that?

In your case it sure doesnt... You both laughed at the "Its just business" post. Its your right NOT to do business with a business that does NOT deserve your business... I aint saying anything to contradict your point of view. But I KNOW that a business DOES have the right to price their items as how THEY see fit. And YOU have the right to NOT buy.... And I have been saying THAT from the very beginning...

I dont like to have a consumer tell me what pricing is 'fair market' Id like for the consumer to decide with his wallet. Not his mouth. And I will come up with the conclusion at the end of the month with the risk that Ive took, that hard work that I do and the quality of the item that I sell dictate if the pricing I chose is fair market...

Its just business. And the right to DO business in a free market economy. Im a business owner....