oldshurst442

Finally officially in!

Yup. Benchmark in performance and range. And that would be it. But that is where we are at with EVs. And if Tesla could maintain that benchmark, (not hard to do with Tesla's engineers) and improving their designs to be fresh, they dont have to worry about the competition as much. (A little harder to do, but same uphill battle as with their competition) And, lets say, they even improve their quality issues... Id say the competition is in trouble. (This is the one that they are behind the 8 ball in as compared to their competition, but 2 out of 3 aint bad and wont get them into trouble. It hasnt yet either.)

That is why their 2nd generation Models of S,X, Y and 3 need to be better in every metric than the 1st gens. Including design. Their current corporate design is getting (all ready is) stale and outdated... They DO have a rabid fanbase... Its as rabid as @smk4565's fanaticism and worship-ness towards Mercedes. If not more! I am not going to pretend to know the percentage of Tesla's sales are from rabid Tesla fanatics, but it is high. I am thinking its high enough that if Tesla manages to outdo themselves if they do actually bring out 2nd gen models, that it wont matter what the rest of the competition does. Tesla will survive the onslaught and perhaps have even MORE rabid fans by their side. But that is IF they bring out 2nd generation models to their Model S,X,Y and 3. If not, the competition will eventually erode away at their market share. Mercedes, Cadillac, Porsche, Audi all have their fanbases too. But BECAUSE Tesla is STILL the benchmark, its up to these brands to prove themselves AGAINST Tesla. The Mach E... BECAUSE the Model Y and Model X are outdated on the outside, and the Mach E is very very comparable with Tesla's tech and performance specs, the Mach E has done very well against the Tesla models in sales. The Porsche and Audi sedan entrants, dont do so well in sales compared to the Model S regardless if the Porsche and Audi look one thousand times better than the Model S. The performance specs lag... When the competition catches up, and they arent far behind with Tesla now, it will be design that will win out. And Tesla loses there. Unless Tesla's 2nd gen vehicles stay above their own current models with a fresh, appealing design. In Mercedes' case, their EVs were touched by the ugly stick. And ugly doesnt sell.

In 2020 2 164 187 units 691 000 of those were compact Now...I aint doing C class and E class, I aint got time for that... But MOST of those cars are fleet and taxi and low market cars. GLC might have been the company's top selling model, but like the E Class, in parts of the world, this model is ALSO sold NOT as a luxury model... I aint gonna do the math for that either... Lets NOT forget the Sprinter vans that Mercedes sells to vacation resorts and hotels in France, Greece, Italy, Spain... Nice vans. Awesome vans. I fell in love with them in 2018 when I saw them in action in Greece. But they aint sold as in high price tags and are not sold as luxury either. Some are. But these are fleet vehicles. MOST are sold with decent seats and the like, but are NOT luxury rides shuttling tourists around. They are just buses... I WONT be far off to say that 60% of those 2 164 187 units are NON LUXURY!!! If you wanna prove ME wrong....YOU do the math and PROVE me wrong. But its gonna be tough...when you are already at 30% ONLY with the compacts. Add the vans...which are at 325 000. Which says commercial. Are those the Sprinter fleets? Already you are ABOVE the 50% mark... NOT all are non-luxury. Ill give you that. But a high percentage is. We are very close to 50% if not AT 50%... Go ahead...DO the math... teach me, but more importantly...TEACH YOURSELF!!!!

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/global/2020-full-year-global-mercedes-benz-and-smart-sales-worldwide/ 2020 (Full Year) Global: Mercedes-Benz and Smart Sales Worldwide January 8, 2021 in Brands, Global In 2020, global Mercedes-Benz and Smart car sales were lower in most regions and countries worldwide but up in China. GLC was the top-selling model. Mercedes-Benz S-Class © Daimler AG In full-year 2020, Mercedes-Benz delivered 2,164,187 cars worldwide (-7.5%) but claimed to have maintained its leading global position compared with its core competitors. Overall, the largest markets for Mercedes-Benz were China, Germany, and the USA, followed by Great Britain and South Korea. The GLC was the top-selling Mercedes-Benz model worldwide. Electrified car sales (xEV in Mercedes speak) more than doubled to over 160,000 plug-in hybrids and all-electric vehicles worldwide. Mercedes-Benz Global Sales by Brands and Division in 2020 In full-year 2020, Daimler sold the following Mercedes-Benz branded cars, Smart brand and commercial vans worldwide: Jan. – Dec. 2020 Change in % Mercedes-Benz* 2,164,187 -7.5 smart 38,391 -67.1 Mercedes-Benz Cars 2,202,578 -10.3 Mercedes-Benz Vans (commercial models) 325,771 -8.9 Mercedes-Benz Cars & Vans 2,528,349 *Including the V-Class and the X-Class Mercedes-Benz Cars Sales by Region and Country in 2020 Mercedes-Benz branded car sales in major regions and countries in the world were as follows in 2020: Jan. – Dec. 2020 Change in % Europe 784,183 -16.4 – thereof Germany 286,108 -10.1 Asia-Pacific 1,024,315 4.7 – thereof China 774,382 11.7 North America 317,592 -14.7 – thereof USA 274,916 -13 Mercedes-Benz benefited from the ongoing recovery in many markets in the second half of 2020: 1,024,315 units were sold in the Asia-Pacific region (4.7% more than in 2019). The main sales driver was China, with an unprecedented recovery: due to double-digit growth of 11.7%, a new sales record with 774,382 units was achieved making China by far the most important single-country market for Mercedes-Benz cars. In the Europe region, Mercedes-Benz delivered 784,183 passenger cars in 2020 (-16.4%). In Germany, Mercedes-Benz sold a total of 286,108 cars (‑10.1%), as the second-largest car brand in Germany in 2020. Sales in the North America region totaled 317,592 units (-14.7%). Mercedes-Benz delivered 274,916 cars in the USA in 2020 (-13.0%). Overall, the largest markets for Mercedes-Benz were China, Germany, and the USA, followed by Great Britain and South Korea. Top-Selling Mercedes-Benz Models Worldwide in 2020 In 2020, Mercedes-Benz delivered approximately 691,000 compact cars (A-Class, A-Class Saloon, B-Class, CLA Coupé, CLA Shooting Brake, GLA and GLB) worldwide (+3.6%). Sales of SUVs (GLA, GLB, GLC, GLC Coupé, EQC, GLE, GLE Coupé, GLS and G-Class) were about 885,000 vehicles (+12.9%). The GLE (+32.3%) and GLS (+21.1%) in particular enjoyed high customer demand. The global best-selling model of Mercedes-Benz in 2020 was the GLC with approximately 320,000 units. In 2020, the S-Class was again the best-selling luxury sedan worldwide with about 60,000 units (-17.2%). The new S‑Class, presented by Mercedes-Benz in September, met with a very strong positive customer response: More than 40,000 orders have been received worldwide, already exceeding the order intake after the sales start of its predecessor. The Mercedes-AMG sports and high-performance brand sold 125,129 vehicles worldwide (-5.3%). A new sales record and a growth of 1.5% was achieved in the USA, the brand’s largest market. Furthermore, a new record was also achieved in the important growth market of China (+32.3%). The USA, Germany, China, Japan and Australia were AMG’s largest markets. A total of 38,391 vehicles of the smart brand were handed over to customers (-67.1%). The largest market for smart was Germany: There, strong demand for all-electric models was significantly boosted by the German government subsidy, which led to doubled electric smart deliveries (+104.9%). Mercedes-Benz commercial van sales were down 8.9% despite robust sales during the final quarter of 2020. Globally, 325.771 Sprinter vans, Vitos, Vito Tourers, and Citans were sold in the full year 2020. The launch of the eVito in additional markets and the market launch of the eSprinter more than tripled sales of electric vehicles to almost 6,200 electric vans worldwide.

You got no analysis of that. Its only your head canon that alllows you to think this way. Because you are a fanboy. But reality is, and YOU deny it, that GMC sells MORE luxury cars 50 000 dollars and more than Mercedes does. Now...in your head, its good that Mercedes "steals" from Volvo, Acura, Lincoln, Lexus Cadillac etc... But reality is that GMC MIGHT be replacing Mercedes in the 50 000-100 000 dollar price range BECAUSE Mercedes decided to go DOWNmarket. THAT move OPENED up a market for GMC and their Denali, All Terrain X packages, Kodiak and now Hummer trims... Its all how you wanna see things...

There is even a slight similarity with Cadillac's mags for 1994 for phoques sake!!! from 1999

I dont know? Why DOES it matter? All I know is that Mercedes' volume in North America is about a third BELOW 50 thousand dollars... But...more importantly... Why is it that YOU dont EVER want to admit to it? Why does it BOTHER YOU that Mercedes' volume, a third of it...is BELOW 50 thousand dollars? You keep on deflecting that fact... Is it because YOU have bought into the bullshyte that Mercedes is luxury and faced with THAT fact that you want to deny that Mercedes is just as a ho-hum brand as, lets say...Cadillac? Seeing as you hate Cadillac so much you try to discredit Cadillac at every chance you get... Dude... 100 000 plus people per year...every year... buy/lease Mercedes cars LESS than 50 000 US dollars. THAT is A LOT of NON-LUXURY Mercedes cars being bought in the US. In Europe? A HELLUVA LOT MORE than that as in Europe, Mercedes, since the end of WW2 has been an automaker catering to the AVERAGE EUROPEAN... Point being... YOU dont want to admit that Mercedes is not the luxury automaker YOU so wish it to be... Its very ho-hum... https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a37444029/2021-maserati-ghibli-trofeo-is-not-german-in-every-way-it-should-be/ Brand new EV concept... A MAYBACH non-the-less. VERY HO-HUM... Why is that Mercedes decided to copy a Lincoln from a decade ago though? And made it a top spec super uber luxury?

People are also used to paying $45 000 dollars for Mercedes vehicles. About a third of their North American volume is BELOW 50 thousand US dollars... Mercedes is chasing volume, so expect Mercedes vehicles to be UNDER $40 000 in the coming decade.... ICE or EV...

Ford's survival relied heavily on the next vehicle after the Model T. It was not what Chevrolet or Dodge was selling... What Chevrolet's and Dodge's answer to the Model T was what made the Model T obsolete. But Ford's survival was what Ford was going to bring as the Model T's successor. Im taking the same approach here. Tesla has ENOURMOUS brand cache and recognition. Its their fight to lose... All Tesla has to do is just repeat what they did the 1st time around. Capture lightning in a bottle a second time by being better than themselves. Like I said, THEY are the benchmark... GM, Ford and what it looks like what Mercedes is declaring on their EVs is that they can at least match and beat Tesla's tech. Mercedes' design falls short on the outside but on the inside they look like true winners. GM seems like both the outside and the inside looks like they are winners. Ford seems to be doing great with the Mach E and what they've shown the EV F150 to be. But alas, Tesla has that awesome brand recognition... Ill repeat, Tesla remains static on their 5 models (Roadster included) and GM, Ford, VW Group, Mercedes WILL clean their clock. But if Tesla brings out 2nd gen models... all Tesla's 2nd gen models have to do is just be better than the 1st gen. Maybe the Roadster will not survive a 1st gen let alone a 2nd gen... If they can accomplish that, they will live and do great and unto the 3rd generation of their 4 or 5 or 6 models. (Cybertruck the 6th model?) Its important that they dont flub the Cybertruck as that is billions of dollars of R&D that they could use for 2nd gen Model S,X,3 and Y. If they succeed, then that guarantees billions of dollars...for a REAL 25 000 dollar affordable EV themselves. Like I said, its up to them this early on... Its what THEY do, NOT what their competition does. I firmly believe that.

Neither No one. Its themselves they need to fear. Its their second act with all their 4 models that the buying folk will scrutinize and compare and contrast. Not their rivals' EVs... The second generation of their models need to impress the people in looks and they have to be better than their 1st generation in performance. They have established themselves as THE benchmark for all others to follow. That is their uphill battle. AND... if they remain static and dont release second generations on their current 4 models, then they will fade away as well. They themselves are their biggest rival...

Awesome! @smk4565 We agree on something...that Mercedes and its EVs will NOT destroy Tesla. Thread once again back on track!

@trinacriabob I wanna know how in the world did you dredge up her name and memory all of a sudden like that? I hadnt heard a peep of her since her 1990s racist incidents. I had long since forgotten she existed until you brought her up. LOL

Dodge has been lucky enough that from Fiat's ownership they have been left alone to manage their (limited) portfolio as how they see fit. Marchionne was at least smart enough to acknowledge that Dodge's engineers, marketing people and designers knew what American people wanted from this brand and let them free to allow Dodge to become what it is today in 2021. Dodge folk grew the Hemi into a 2nd iteration Superbee, Scat Pack, Hellcat, Demon, Red Eye with 392s and supercharged 6.2s. The SRT brand also grew with Fiat. Fiat allowed Dodge to do this. Fiat did not stifle Dodge the way Daimler did. I think Stellantis will allow this way to continue on. SRT engineers have been given the task to introduce and lead Dodge into the EV era and are welcomed to evolve Dodge and the SRT brand into EV 'muscle cars'. Not only that, SRT engineers have a bigger role to play within Stellantis itself! https://www.autoweek.com/news/sports-cars/a36135002/heres-whats-really-going-on-at-srt/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/stellantis-srt-future/ Although the title is misleading...it says that Stellantis disbands the SRT team. Its far from disbanding it. The first link, Kuniskis expalins that because battery packs and KW/H and the various platforms that Stellantis will be giving Dodge, the SRT team, working with the other Stellantis engieering teams will have to work closely together with the base cars to accomplish SRT things with the SRT cars for Dodge so its logical that the SRT engineers will work side to side with the other engineers to ensure that the SRT cars will be able to be engineered properly as SRT cars. If what Kuniskis says is true, Stellantis shows that they have deep respect for SRT engineers and Dodge in general. If its false, then SRT engineers are just absorbed into Stellantis for the greater good of the multi-branded corporation and Dodge will lose its carefully crafted identity they had built the last 12-13-14 years.

Yeah...so. With the arrival of the new Mercedes EV things, its safe to say....that...Mercedes EVs will NOT destroy Tesla. (Because they are ugly things. They look more dated than Tesla's vehicles..) Thread back on topic BTW.

@David There is always room for one more. Make it four. The more the merrier. Greece. Italy. And now we are off to Germany. Oktoberfest is just around the corner!!! Literally!!! We could stay long enough after Oktoberfest to actually ski here!

https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a37444029/2021-maserati-ghibli-trofeo-is-not-german-in-every-way-it-should-be/ I know this is sensationalism to the Nth degree, and maybe 3 decades too late from this rag mag, but Ill take it. Better late than never. Ive been saying this though constantly for 3 decades. @smk4565 Reality is that...Mercedes is not entirely the luxury you wish it soooooo bad to be...

This table is waiting for us TC Bob! Any Island, Greece! We could feast on any Greek food we choose, whether it be lamb or grilled octopus and fried calamari. We take in the sun and the beach and respect our internet friendship! Yamas! PS: The following year, we could visit Italia Any Place, Italia!!! Salute!

^^^ He is a great drummer! The guitarists look good too. But I couldnt hear them as its a very drum heavy sound. Just commenting on it not judging... I will just say this, and not in a bad way, just saying... Not my style of rock. But good luck to them. Wish them lots of success!

Thanks But I KNEW that already as I had done THAT exercise one year ago... The post above this one. Look at it if you wanna... I had come to a conclusion using MY logic and that AVG transaction prices for Mercedes was at 55 000 dollars. An actual link states the avg transaction prices to be 58 000- 59 000 thousand dollars with my calculated break down of 260 000- 280 000 units. Below 50 thousand is at around 75 000 units. Like what you said. NOT including a handful of C classes and an even less than a handful of GLC CUVs and a bunch of commercial vans. 40 000 vans to be exact. How many of those vans are less than 50 000 US dollars? Almost ALL of those. We will ADD 2000 C Classes to your total with 1000 GLCs and lets say 25 000 Vans. That would be 28 000 units to the 75 000. Ill just add 25 thousand JUST to make an easy number. 100 000 units at or below 50 000 US dollars. THAT is 32.5% You split the middle with @surreal1272 by saying 30% which seems reasonable. But...he is CORRECT also in saying that its CLOSER to 40% than it really is to 20%... Below 60 thousand dollars and Mercedes sells 260 000-280 000 units. Any which way you slice it... 1. Mercedes does NOT sell THAT many luxury vehicles. It sells AS many as anybody else that sells vehicles at those luxury prices. 2. Mercedes wants to sell MORE low end stuff to beef up their sales portfolio... They want to go DOWN market... GM and GMC want to go UPmarket...and GMC is offering higher priced trims and they are HITTING their sales targets... 3. I am not so sure Mercedes is hitting their sales targets DOWN or UP market... 4. Mercedes is NOT all that as to how @smk4565 wants to prep them up and your analysis falls just a tad short... helpful but misleading...with your 20% Its a good thing that I done THAT exercise just over a year ago...