surreal1272

And that's YOUR choice but that is not the way for everyone. Avalanche part deux. I dig it.

And he also gave examples of why the practices (he mentioned) should qualify as bait and switch, not that are )legally speaking) bait and switch. Key distinction that you seem to be missing in all of this. As far as the dealership, you make a fair point but if you also read what I said, I said that "98%" are doing this. Your dealership is the 2% exception. My dealership remark was also a smaller statement mixed in the larger point of true customer choice and being able to skip the dealership altogether. Sorry but folks can claim capitalism and choice when at least one of those doesn't really exist (choice) and you currently have dealerships and governments (looking at you Michigan and Texas) who are stifling the buy direct approach brought on by companies like Tesla. Sorry but those tactics and blocking maneuvers are the EXACT opposite of capitalism.

Since you asked for David to give an example of something (that wasn't even part of his core point), I would like to even ONE example of this mythical dealer that doesn't mark up. The simple fact is that if 98% of the dealers are doing this, then that is not customer choice, no matter how many times Olds and you say it. This whole "you don't have to buy it" nonsense only goes so far when virtually very dealership commits to the same practice of markups and there are people who rely on a reliable car to get to work and pay their damn bills (because mass transportation clearly isn't an option for everyone). I'll say it one more time for those in the back. If it were REALLY a choice for the customer, then they would buy directly form the manufacturer and skip all the inflated dealership nonsense. You can't support "customer choice" while ignoring the fact that there isn't really that much of a choice to begin with (for reasons I have already stated). PHOQUING sigh on that.

And both were from car accidents. Big and KEY difference there. The same could not be said for the Pinto and GM's ignition issues (again, 124 deaths). I don't even know how you can even compare it at this point.

Which makes his point. It should be the customers choice to buy directly from the manufacturer without the dealership being involved at all, thus cutting out the unnecessary middle man who process nothing to the product involved, other than lip service. And @oldshurst442-My response here is what the free market car buying practice should actually look like, CUSTOMER CHOICE.

Sorry but that sounds like whataboutism to me. The fact that there are two people before the buyer, making that extra money (Manufacturer and now the dealership) sum up the problem here. Nowhere did he question the current definition of "bait and switch". His exact words were, "To me, the adjusted market value stickers is bait and switch that the states need to crack down on." The part in bold is the key part here. It's to that it is technically bait and switch but maybe it should be.

Here's the key part. 0 deaths vs. 124 deaths. There have been ZERO deaths from the Hyundai" Kia engines issues. Not even a reported injury from them. The same can not be said of the GM ignition debacle. If folks don't see the reason(s) for the perceived media disparity, knowing that fact, then this entire page here has been one big waste. Some folks here tend to see what they want to see because bias is real. And I'm with you Robert. There has been PLENTY of coverage on the Hyundai/Kia engine problems.

Wow! Another thread, another headache from just reading the last page here.

I'm going to be honest. I got a headache just reading this thread. (Tips out)

And I am definitely high mileage with some busted OEM parts.

Thanks. For the record, there is a bottle of Patron Silver in the freezer with my name on it tonight. There is also the option of some sweet tea moonshine (not the strong stuff lol). Both were early birthday presents and will probably last two or three years because I rarely drink. I will enjoy some samples today though because that's what you're supposed to do. Besides, its a tradition and... (apologies in advance for the "language" but it's funny as "F")

100% the same! As recently as two months ago, I was diagnosed with two herniated discs in the L3 to L5 area, a small "normal" fracture in my L2, and discovered that I have congenital spinal stenosis, which explains a whole lot lol. That was from just one MRI and thats just for starters. That is the result of being the most rigid person on earth (my fingers have never been able to bend back like just about everyone else) and having no regard for body for the first 46 years of my life. Just told someone that yes, I am 49 today but 50 is looking at me like...

And right now, I think you give too little credit. We will skip the fact that pretty much until the last 10-15 years, the main objector to the EV movement wasn't the automotive industry. That would be big oil and that is a simple fact, because they have put themselves in the pockets of everyone concerned for well over a century and now they are seeing their influence slowly wane with more automakers committing to ZEVs. Not that they won't stop trying but the grip has weakened over the last 10-15 years or so and will continue to do so at this rate. I'm out. Time for an early BD cocktail and much deserved rest.

Oh good grief. I really don’t have the time to explain it to you in detail but quite simply, this has been in motion since the Obama years. It’s a known fact. The “180” was just being “on the ready” but every single one knew that the EV writing was on the wall long before a whole eleven months ago when Biden first took office.

No bassinet photo but there was the fat baby under a tree photo lol. Thanks. Nothing like 49, going on 70 (if you ask my sore body right now) lol. Very cool!

Thanks. Will be 49 tomorrow and yeah, feels weird to be one year from the half century mark.

Carvana and all like it are not long for this world because they are a joke in clown shoes. I'm with @smk4565 on this one. There have a few stories (industry related) that confirm this. I know you're a dealership fan but that is simply a fact that many folks have viewed dealerships as a failed model in the 21st century. Just saying.

Literally not a chance of that happening (for automakers). And reports widely vary on projected growth because there is still a lot of product that has to come out between now and 2030. Too many unknown variables to sound that certain. I know this. This has been in motion long before Biden so...

Saying "Like I said, perception lags" isn't really acknowledging what I am saying here but whatever, quite honestly. There is no perception lag where Toyota is concerned.

Exactly. All the effort they put into the interior design should have been dedicated to that low rent looking exterior and maybe add a frunk while you’re at it. That is not the “best or nothing”.

Taking the “comparing apples to gas powered oranges” to a whole other level I see? Face it. The EQS is a huge let down and you’ve have been pedaling endless excuses for it by pointing out the perceived (and easily debunked) flaws of everyone else. Classic deflection.

Cite an actual the year of said Camry that you think would sell for $10K. The only models I have seen (via Autotrader) that can sell for that kind of coin are the hybrid models, which sell for far more new than the regular Camrys. Not one Camry over ten years old sells for anywhere close to $10K with that kind of mileage.

And it’s sounding not so vaguely like you still are missing the point so let me say it one more time. Those sales were mentioned to illustrate the fact that it is directly connected to the perception that those buyers have about Toyota, a perception you claim (without proof) doesn’t exist or is somehow “waning”. It is really that simple. You don’t like Toyota. I get it. I don’t care for everything they do either. However, I am also not blind and can also discern (without the anti-Toyota bias you’ve shown over the years here) that millions of people perceive Toyotas as reliable and dependable. It was true thirty years ago and it’s true now and that perception has not changed for most people, whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.

And you are wrong on that too. Outside of their full size pick up SUV offerings, they sell everything they can make and they sell more than the competition (on average) and it is precisely because of that advantage that you think doesn’t exist. Btw, you need to read what I actually said about your POS statement. That’s all I’m goi g to say because you clearly misread it.

And my statement is that they STILL have that advantage. Not sure how you can interpret that any other way. And no offense but you have implied (many times) that Toyotas are basically junk and garbage so there is that.