FordCosworth

Unlike your NEW GT/NEW Camaro bit, there was nothing snide about my comment.

I'm hanging my hat on the victory over the Z06, Viper ACR, ATS-V, 488GTB etc etc along with the victory over Z/28.

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done. Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point. It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine. All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap? That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap. 2015-11-28.png Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage? I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang. I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production. B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is 2+ seconds behind on that specific lap. C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system? According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books. If this is the type of victory you're content to hang your hat on then I guess you're just not that picky about what you like. I, on the other hand, will be straight-up mad if GM doesn't have something that'll gong this thing into oblivion for the next few years right around the corner. Excellence of execution must respond swiftly and decisively. Leave catching up to yesterday to the rest. Type of victory I'm content with? I was more content with the GT350R's victory over a Viper ACR, Corvette Z06, 488GTB, ATS-V, AMG GTS etc etc than having the GT350R beat up on a Z/28. The GT350R has shown to be excellence of execution. Well then, if that's he victory you want to hang your hat on... You're off topic. We have a thread for that already. Sheesh. Youse guys :D Victories.

You going to go with that? Not as good as Chevy? http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-150?engineconfig_id=49&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/silverado_1500?engineconfig_id=63&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= 2.7 in all samples is higher than 5.3 http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-150?engineconfig_id=102&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/silverado_1500?engineconfig_id=167&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= 3.5 samples and 6.2 samples split http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-150?engineconfig_id=6&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= 5.0 had highest of all. I used gas and not flex fuel due to sample size. Left Body style and model at all. As you can see brands near mirror image of one another.

You might want to look at what ppl are getting in 2.7L EB F-150 vs 5.3 Chevy/GMC and 3.5L EB vs 6.2L Chevy/GMC. Oh there is also that 5.0L in the F-150 that puts out more HP/torque than the larger 5.3L Chevy/GMC while having higher payload and tow ratingsAnd maybe pop over to Motor Trend and look at their RealMPG section too.

GT350R! Quicker, faster, better driving! Booyah!

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done. Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point. It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine. All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap? That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap. 2015-11-28.png Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage? I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang. I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production. B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is 2+ seconds behind on that specific lap. C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system? According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books. If this is the type of victory you're content to hang your hat on then I guess you're just not that picky about what you like. I, on the other hand, will be straight-up mad if GM doesn't have something that'll gong this thing into oblivion for the next few years right around the corner. Excellence of execution must respond swiftly and decisively. Leave catching up to yesterday to the rest. Type of victory I'm content with? I was more content with the GT350R's victory over a Viper ACR, Corvette Z06, 488GTB, ATS-V, AMG GTS etc etc than having the GT350R beat up on a Z/28. The GT350R has shown to be excellence of execution.

No, but I can read a dyno graph. Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration. And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol And they don't show gear ratios, throttle tip in, blind spots, sight lines, chassis reflexes, steering ease and accuracy, clutch engagement, brake feel...

Why was the Alpha SS brought up? Or a non existent gen 6 Z/28? Or a highly modified LS7?

You are 100% wrong. The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise. GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor. GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at. The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff. There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed. Hardly exotic. Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium. And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs. Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners. You are welcome. An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought. http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R? The Shelby. You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them????? No he has not driven either Shelby variant.

You are 100% wrong. The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise. GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor. GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at. The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff. There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed. Hardly exotic. Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium. And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs. Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners. You are welcome. An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought. http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R? The Shelby. I responded to your claim that the LS7 made it's power "without a lot of investment." They clearly did invest quite a lot, and it showed, and you even admitted it. And yeah, lots of aftermarket tuners get to play by a much different set of rules than production. ". And yeah, lots of aftermarket tuners get to play by a much different set of rules than production " Exactly. Sure some aftermarket shop can build a N/A 500+ HP 5.3L OHV. But GM won't. GM must meet drivability, emissions, warranty etc etc. And in meeting those, an OHV 5.3L from GM cannot breath or rev enough to make 500+ without power adders.

Cam swap in a OHV is not a simple swap. It's a pretty big tear down. You need drain all fluids and remove; All wiring, plugs, oil pan, timing cover, timing cover seal, timing chain, water pump, fuel pump, valve covers, intake set, heads, push rods, cam... Oh. Let's not forget pulling the engine. It's almost like they've never done a cam/head change on an OHV pushrod engine.

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done. Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point. It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine. All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap? That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap. 2015-11-28.png Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage? I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang. I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production. B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is 2+ seconds behind on that specific lap. C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system? According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books. A) it matters about as much as a win over the Pontiac G8 GXP B) or they were tied. C) My mistake, I was thinking Camaro ZL1 that has the last gen MRC. I don't dispute that it was a win for the Mustang..... the "barely" part comes down to the fact that the hard numbers were within the margin of error and the intangibles being... intangible. A) By now pulling out a defunct car from a defunct brand, you really come across as trying to discredit the Shelby. It beat the Top Dog Camaro, fair and square, while having a 10k cheaper as tested price. B) Lap after lap, that equal driver in the Z/28 is even further behind, he tries that much harder, and is now in the guard rail...

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done. Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point. It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine. All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap? That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap. 2015-11-28.png Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage? I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang. I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production. B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is 2+ seconds behind on that specific lap. C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system? According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books.

Drew, It's safe to say with the gen 5 Camaro production ending Nov. 20/2015, and this Head2Head video being released on Nov 25/2016, that the gen 5 Camaro was in fact still in production when this comparo was compiled.

It is amusing that some think that GM doesn't have any other options in the high performance engine game. So yeah, very little exotic about the FP 5.2L, other than the FP crank. As has been said over and over. And no, I never said GM never had other options, now did I. I wonder who the people are that think GM doesn't have any other HiPo options in the engine game? It's amusing one would even post that some think that. well, when you don't implicate or name anyone, it sure is easy to make statement like that. Easy. Yes. Baseless. Yes.

It is amusing that some think that GM doesn't have any other options in the high performance engine game. So yeah, very little exotic about the FP 5.2L, other than the FP crank. As has been said over and over. And no, I never said GM never had other options, now did I. I wonder who the people are that think GM doesn't have any other HiPo options in the engine game? It's amusing one would even post that some think that.

Exactly. Cammisa went into great detail about the GT350R feedback and directional changes afforded by the Fords EPS. Both him and RP mention the Z/28 as numb.

edited you for clarity. Sorry Drew. " Victories don't come any clearer than this. The GT350 is the easy winner of this Head2Head ". And the Z/28 is not a 5yrs old car. It came out for model year 2014. Well, it was a clear victory. Two tenths to 60, 1.4 around the road course. Whether or not it was easy?... Well, two tenths... And you're right, the Z/28 is pretty new as a combination. But the frame and engine sure aren't. Bottom line: Ford had better enjoy the win. I suspect it won't last. Silly is when someone tries to claim the car that was always behind was quicker. I'm sorry you don't understand how videos work. Sure is funny watching you obsess over it tho Sure is funny seeing an LS7 burn a Voodoo to 60 too Still trying to sell that the Z/28 was quicker ( in one aspect ) huh? Sure was awesome seeing a Voodoo burn an LS7 on the street, strip and track, all while coming in at an as tested 10k cheaper. Uh... Not to 60 tho Look. The Chevy had a decade-old engine. The Chevy had the five year-old chassis. The fact that you are crowing over Ford's latest and greatest edging out a car that's out of production is... kinda sad really Its understandable you're sad. I really didn't think you'd take Randy's " numb " to heart though.

Silly is when someone tries to claim the car that was always behind was quicker.I'm sorry you don't understand how videos work. Sure is funny watching you obsess over it tho Sure is funny seeing an LS7 burn a Voodoo to 60 too Still trying to sell that the Z/28 was quicker ( in one aspect ) huh? Sure was awesome seeing a Voodoo burn an LS7 on the street, strip and track, all while coming in at an as tested 10k cheaper.

Silly is when someone tries to claim the car that was always behind was quicker.

edited you for clarity. Sorry Drew. " Victories don't come any clearer than this. The GT350 is the easy winner of this Head2Head ". And the Z/28 is not a 5yrs old car. It came out for model year 2014. The Camaro came out in 2009... the Z28 is just the hot version of it. Refresh my memory. Was there a 2009 Z/28?

You might want to look at that video again. At no point is the Z/28 ahead in the straight line drag. The Shelby, from dead stop, was always ahead. Why so focused on 0-60 anyways? That's not what either cars purpose is. I'll make it simple. The Z/28 lost. It lost at both track and strip, and lost at being the better street car. Well, you were stoked about ALL THE NUMBERS. ...so you were the one focused on 60. Golly Unlike you. I never crowed and focus over 0-60. But please. Do tell how the car that was behind, and falling further behind the whole time, was quicker.

edited you for clarity. Sorry Drew. " Victories don't come any clearer than this. The GT350 is the easy winner of this Head2Head ". And the Z/28 is not a 5yrs old car. It came out for model year 2014.

You might want to look at that video again. At no point is the Z/28 ahead in the straight line drag. The Shelby, from dead stop, was always ahead. Why so focused on 0-60 anyways? That's not what either cars purpose is. I'll make it simple. The Z/28 lost. It lost at both track and strip, and lost at being the better street car.