turbo200

you're wrong.see, more than one person can blow smoke without giving good reason.

you're probably right.....that and I can't imagine myself sharing the road in something as ugly as the prius. it's an idea I'm floating, the gas mileage gives it some merit. going from wanting the mazda 3 though to this...

I might be replacing my car with one of these mazda 3 [5-door, I think the sedan is yucky] civic/ hybrid rabbit [what can I say, beautiful, but thirsty, this is my favorite if all need to be practical were thrown out] prius [though i've never driven one, so I'd have to try it out to see if I like it more than civic, the mileage and carpool lane and roomy trunk are definitely enticing] that's all folks; none of the others are worth considering except evo lancer but that is not what I'm in the market for so I didn't list it astra but that's coming out too late in the year

I'm liking the flashy new colors.

Chrysler powertrain kills a lot of the momentum that Chrysler design works up. Updating the 2.7 and 3.5 with something truly fuel efficient, then of course you have the Hemi that gets like 17 mpg city. The 300 was a stand out design that received a lot of attention, these kinds of cars need stylistic updates to jeep them going; but most importantly word of mouth will entice newer buyers, and with owners complaining the LX cars are gas hogs, why would anyone want them? Then of course Chrysler approves cars like the Sebring, Compass, Avenger [this one is decent, but screams rental car], and Nitro [what does it offer that's new besides in your face style].

Sorry guys I was being a jerk and a bit pissy, but my reason was that I thought the Pontiac stats were relevant to the whole "rejuvenate Pontiac" discussion. you know the whole bring Pontiac back with exciting and beautiful RWD product. However, your analysis of Chrysler's situation is right on.

The zeta design room line from the article or caption could have been a misprint. Or another logical take is that GM has pictures of its cars in all design centers, regardless of what platform its on. Or it could be Impala. For my money, it looks too much like Malibu to be Impala, but you guys could be right.I still maintain that the perspective is messing up the side profile, and the wheel to A-pillar distance is definitely FWD.

it's a Malibu! the blur especially around the rear make it look like a 2-door, but the front combined with the Aura-like greenhouse, which we already know is very similar to Malibu, make it the Malibu, imo.

orange was among the first press shots shown, don't know why that isn't here. the red that was shown in the original press shots is boring, I guess this must be the same one. Is this the entire list of colors? If it is, I guess I must commend GM, for from what can be seen here, there is not one geriatric color [except that gold mist might turn out to be pretty dull, but I give them one free pass]. From having disgusting unappealing asssssss greens that are so infuriating to see on a modern sports sedan Caddy.........to what we see here, well it's a welcome relief.

I hope the Volt design theme really isn't indicative of the Impala; I live the Volt, but it's not breathtaking, and it's not all that attention-getting either. It works for the Volt because the concept of the Volt is attention-getting, however, if that were the Impala it wouldn't get much notice. That's jmo. The picture to me looks like a Malibu coupe; the shape and roofline and overall proportions look close enough to Malibu. Though it's in profile, and it's hard to really tell, the wheel to a-pillar distance suggests FWD. But it's anyone's guess.

Pontiac has 44% fleet sales according to an artice over at autoblog, where's the headline for that one?

Northie--you know how they say some men won't listen to good reason, and its foolish to waste your breath on them? This guy is being called out already---I will be next, his lines are like those of a child and his bitter feud is reminiscent of another grudge-holder--buickman. Nobody cares what he has to say.....people listen to reason and good insight....this guy has shown none so far.

W-body has been around longer. Your car's platform is just as old, or older. And it's less fun to drive. Why so much car envy? The GTO needs make no apologies for what it is. GTO is a strong car with a beautiful interior, and enough technical refinement to give BMW 5-series and3-series from its generation a run for thier money. Case closed. Gran Prix GXP is the nicest iteration of an overused and overengineered FWD platform that long ago lost its relevance. It was crafted under a regime of old Detroit think where long wheelbases and even longer overhangs created the aura of unmovable solidarity. I bet the GTO is just slightly more fun, and the Gran Prix much more practical. That being said, both are decent looking cars that any owner should be proud to own, but they're no beauty queens.

this is relevant to this discussion Rental Sales

it's not the look, or the color choice that I'm comparing. I first sat in the CR-V a month before its official debut, since then I've sat in it once more. Each time I was in it, I was thorough in touching every single material. They got everything right. I had not one single thing I could complain about. In a 25k SUV, that is what impressed me the most.

the word "incredible", I use it for effect, for emphasis on how strongly i feel about those; the things i mentioned though, they really are pretty nice. the gauges, to me, look professional, something aobut the font used, something about the colors, the whole combo looks real classy and nice. I can think of several domestic cars, even some high end, that fail to meet that level.

of course, what more could i expect from a board full of GM jockeys? impartialty? just about every response against me sounds as unsubstansive and meaningless as this. Claiming I'm wrong, when you're only evidence is you live with one daily, right, just another example of a "strong argument".I give credence to Northie, since he has said he has actually driven and spent time in the CR-V. Nothing you say above, balthazar really disproves my point that the gauges are detailed and expensive looking. Other than Northstar, no one here has argued my points with real solid testimony. I have sat in all the cars I talked about, and I was certainly not referring to Enclave since that one is not out yet and can't be tested in that way. I have sat in the Edge, CR-V, Acadia, Outlook, Tahoe, Silverado, etc. While the GMT 900s come closest, and definitely they all represent significant quality jumps for thier respective automakers and can claim to be the best from thier respective company, that is not enough still. The CR-V has a consistency of quality throughout. From the incredible fit, to the incredible roofliner, to the incredible switches for the sunroof even, to the incredibly tight fits, to the nice radio design, to the soft and taut leather, to the door panels and dashboard panels. About the only plastics that I can say are not as good as the rest, are the hard black shell encasing the stereo, which NO ONE makes any other way than as a hard plastic, and the silver plastic that runs across the dash just directly above the radio, which I can't totally remember but I think is not that nice. The steering wheel feels incredible; everything, I mean this is a Honda, and Honda makes Acura, and if you have fiddled with any new Acura, you know they have next to some of the nicest interiors in the world. It makes sense that the disciplined and proud company that is Honda, would spread that attribute to its own namesake. I can't say why Northie's experience was not the same. I don't know. But I can say, from my own experience the [uplevel] Silverado may have a more luxurious looking interior, but the consistency of the materials is not like that in the CR-V. On a whole the uplevel Silverado interior and the similar Tahoes, Subs, etc are very luxurious and have some very nice materials, but their are many materials in there that are questionable, especially when compared to cars like the Civic and CR-V, that for thier price especially, seem to get almost every material right.

you have to get this one right more than the others. The car has to be a redefinition for the brand in terms of image. Pontiac right now stands for something very unattractive. To get as far away from that as possible, the look of the car in and out has to represent something as different for Pontiac as the Trax and Beat are different for Chevy. These cars have to redefine Pontiac like Buick is seeking to be redefined with the Riviera. Not in terms of the sporty nature of that concept, but in terms of a break from the past with new ideas about design. Next is the quality look and feel of the interior. Next is the suspension feel and performance nature. Make it a real fun to drive car, something that doesn't feel heavy, something that is tossable. Next is the marketing, and pricing/equipment goes into that. Mazda offers some fantastic colors/equipment on every car model in thier lineup; Pontiac is a damn shame and looks like their living in another century next to Mazda. Marketing and product imaging is definitely a huge downfall at GM. Even the CTS has been so mismanaged. The wheels that are still geriatric, the sober colors, the lack of exterior refinements to make it look a little sportier. I just can't say enough for how much a little detail like aggressive side sills add to the image of a strong performing car. Look at the Mazda 3.

I disagree, if you are implying it doesn't look sophisticated. If you are implying it doesn't look good, then I'd have to agree with you because it just isn't for me. For a young mom though, it might be the right look.

Because you are usually very reasonable and logical I will withhold from using the word I thought of when I saw the post that followed yours. He posted pictures in support of his argument, no more no less. They were not alone meant to prove the quality of the inteiror, his opinion was the evidence for that. However, those gauges may be generic but they are highly highly detailed and the information center that resides in between them is also expensive looking. CR-V's interior, the current generation, the one that just debuted, is in a class all its own. It is far superior to cars costing 10k more, like the Edge, the Lambdas, the Silverado, the GMT 900s excluding Escalade. The consistency of materials, the textures, the fluidity with which each control stalk and button operates all speak to a higher standard of build. The leather is amazing. the last generation CR-V was released in 2002. Perhaps that's why held up against today's standards it is subpar. But in 2002, it was pretty good.

I couldn't agree more. The grille finally has headlights that complement and set up a character so mysteriour and intrguing and sexual while at the same time being soft and feminine. Very Buick. Very romantic. The lines are soft and smooth, out at the rear and so intricate and lovely. I just love the rear; it reminds me of the Velite in its simplicty and of course the form is similar as well. I love that the front end is aggressive without removing that air of subtlety and elegance that Buicks are known for. I just love this car. And the inteiror is one of the best I've seen in a long time. I love the piece that extends to you of the console that is emphasized by the chrome up top giving the feeling of royalty and regal-esque character; totally how a Buick should feel inside. This is the new revolution of Buick. I'd love for a Lacrosse to come out that hits all the same high notes this car has hit.

I've seen market share applied to the imports, pretty much all the time, but it's always a positive. When you start out with nothing, you have no where to go but up. GM and the domestics' story has been that of a market share slide. The media has been talking about it for decades, but GM was arrogant and relied on their loyal consumers. Now the loyal consumers are switching over in droves and there is no end in sight. Oh ya, is that the picture the media paints that you don't like? It's the truth, it does hurt; but the media has been talking about it for years, and telling GM what the problem was with the product. GM hasn't gotten smart about it until very very recently.As for the BMW, of course I lust after one. Haven't you ever read a post of mine? I love their simplistic nature.

it's beautiful. love that color. How do you like the suspension? I recently drove a G6 that I wasn't so impressed with, I guess it was the regular V6 3500 version.

thanks for the statslet's keep in mind the base 3-series has a starting price of $32,000, and goes up all the way to the low $50's, in non M- regular form. That is a lot more money than we are hoping our potential RWD Pontiac mid sedan to be priced at, yet they can manage around 80k RWD sales a year, starting at 10k more than our theoretical RWD Pontiac sedan would cost. I would love to see a breakdown by city, but it goes without saying, urban cities and especially cities in CA, are the biggest markets for the 3-series, even as it grows in popularity and gets embraced everywhere else. The 3-series is the new Camry. [in some ways] California is BMW's strongest market, and one of GM's weakest market, if not the weakest, in terms of share. On my daily drives, through Los Angeles, through Malibu, through Hollywood, and through the San Fernando Valley [okay I don't drive each one of these daily, but pretty consistently since they're all next to each other], about 80% of the autos on the road are imports, SERIOUSLY!!!! Of the 25% domestic, about 10% are GM, purely GMT900 trucks, SUVs, and Cadillacs in general. ~10% are Ford product F-series Fusion Focus etc. Charger and 300 are very strong here, they are bold statements and image conscious people who like those statements buy em like no tomorrow, Ram is strong. In other words the code is cracked. Honda and Toyota have gained all of thier sales share thanks to cars in CA and other big cities. Sure, the Nissan small truck was popular here two decades ago, thanks to the large immigrant population, but now F-150 has supplanted that by a large margin. Trucks are not the issue, the Imports have gained at the cost of domestics in big cities where population has expanded and where cars that are smaller on the outside and not short on comfort on the inside, like the new Civic, have gained in popularity! So cars are the magic formula. Let's take a basic look at the sedan formula at GM for the past two decades, shall we: (a) floaty, (b) marshmallowy © tall dash (d) floaty (e) big bench seats (f) big steering wheels (g) floaty (h) seats softer than a sofa (i) huge (j) floaty (k) "dial back the feedback Jean, I ken feel too much commotion goin on down ther" (l) floaty (m) unrefined (n) floaty (o) big turning radii (p) difficult to manage in tight spots (q) floaty. A big portion of the roads in LA are twisty roads, like 50%. They are also the most scenic, beautiful routes, closest to Italy in thier aspect in some places, that I have ever seen in my life. They are also very important to avoid traffic on the freeways. And these twisty roads are seriously small and winding roads. And a lot of people live on them. They are what lead to the quintessential American dream home in the hills. GM has lost so much share because Honda solved the family sedan solution back in the 1980's with the Accord. Nissan was also huge then. BMW always made its mark thanks to solid suspensions but also that European elegant cache. I could go on forever. GM has never figured out how to make a suspension worthy of holding its own. Even my recent test in a G6 and CTS left me wanting a lot more. These have still been record sales years for GM. So it's not the number of units that's the problem, but all the share that has gone to the imports. You can thank places like SoCal for that. That is the code that must be cracked. Gain sales in LA and you will gain share. How does this relate to Pontiac? Maybe a cool G6 that can hold its own on the twisties with BMW, has real presence and a commodious interior with quality, and you'll have a hit here. Then, with its nice style, and athletic proportions, it will gain attention the country over and everyone will want a Pontiac again.

let me also add that I am not opposed to a FWD G6 sharing the limelight with a RWD mid-compact sedan under the G8. Lexus has cars that overlap that are FWD and RWD, why can't Pontiac? The tooling and platform is readily available, so an EP II G6 is okay. I am just opposed to it being the star player of the mainstream Pontiac car. Have a RWD G4 compact sedan about the size of 1-series, a 3-series sized sedan, a G6 about the size it currently is occupying the position the Gran Prix currently occupies, and the G8.