turbo200

hold the phone. the only one claiming a ~22k RWD sedan, coupe, and convertible can't sell is you! I believe 200k could be easily achievable as long as the car has the right style quality and performance. The clincher is that today's technology can easily handle the harshest of winters. Stability, ABS, all season tires all standard, have you already experienced today's tech in a RWD car, reg? Then let those who have speak up.

ok, so i totally called it in the other thread that the lighting and preproduction photos were holding it back from its full potential. the proportions have grown, the length has increased, and the overhangs have become normal size, and all I can say is PERFECT!! It looks stunning now. I love the look all around. I wanna see more pictures, they actually left me wanting more. The rear looks amazing. And that inteiror is one of the best I've seen in a while. As a 26k sportster, to start off, this is perfect, maybe off a shortened EP II, or something smaller. Whatever, it's very cool, very contemorary luxury. A real substantial looking luxury coupe compared to MB C-coupe or whatever the hatch is called.

omg kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick assss it's amazing that a decade ago, BMW was one of the most conservative in terms of design, and here we are and they are setting trends. The face is so mean and agressive and shark-like, what a wonderful interpretation of that BMW cue. The body is sexay. The rear is so clean and futuristic and stealth. Oh man, it's seriously good looking. I can see this being a huuuuuuuge gimongous hit in LA. So fashionable and loud. That interior is curious. Curious because it's incredibly driver friendly and very beautiful, and easily producable. I see this influencing future BMW big time.

To add to this, I finally got to experience a G6 first hand. The engine was okay. I didn't have much time to drive it. I spent about 10 minutes driving it. I drove it hard enough to cement my impression, but the owner said something like that grows on you. It felt huge to drive. Yes, going from my car is a huge jump, but I'm used to driving lots of different cars, I used to sell cars. I know what the Accord drives like like the back of my hand. I can say the steering is what killed most of the experience for me. That is what aided the "big car feel". But even the suspension felt heavy-handed and didn't corner like I hoped it would. There was defiitely no driving excitement in that car. The Accord V6 is ten thousand times better driver, in terms of feedback, entertainment, and even refinement. The Accord that was released in 2002.

I'm an advocate for a small FWD [or RWD], possibly based on Gamma, or the NG Astra. My RSX is a perfect car for the new Pontiac, where Pontiac would like to be at. Just envisioning that kind of car at Pontiac right now is so unbeleiveable far-fetched and hopeful. But they can do it, if they get thier act together. Will that take 20 years? or will it never happen?I can only keep dreaming. However, FWD does work in my car, incredibly well. But it's a Honda. Not a GM. GM hasn't made a FWD that is satisfying to me. But that's not my issue with FWD, that's an issue I have with GM. Because FWD can be fun. Witness the Accord, Mazda3 and 6. Probably Saabs, though I've never actually driven one. The reason I believe Pontiac should be RWD is because they are the "Driving Excitement" division, and no other platform in existance signifies driving excitment to me like RWD does. Besides, GM has Saturn, Chevrolet, Buick, even Saab in its arsenal to handle for mainstream FWD sedans. Making Pontiac into a RWD on the cheap with high sophistication, wild and gorgeous styling, and great interiors, sounds like a huge recipe for succcess to me, especially in the Sun Belt. But I've never advocated against AWD. Reg, you will have plenty of FWD to choose from. As it is, the G6 barely sells 200k/year. Pontiac barely sells 400k/year. Do you know that in the mid-90's they used to sell more than a million/year? Buick now sells less in America than Oldsmobile did when it died. When I see dramatic shifts, slides away from a once acceptable brand, I see the need for dire changes.

reg's saying he already doesn't like theoretical cars that he hasn't ever even experienced. that's called qualified... NOT reg's made his point clear. he wants pontiac to remain FWD. now whenever he argues that FWD should remain at Pontiac, just politely disagree with him and skip over his post. that way the problem will go away and three pages of solid points won't have to be made to please one person. reg doesn't need convincing, he is arleady convinced he is right. the facts he gives us like 40% of G8 sales are missing already because it lacks AWD are totally true and real facts.

i got the same impression of the interior when i sat in one at an auto show a while back. and i still think the 300, in certain colors, and especially in black, looks bad ass.

currently lots of investment dollars, engineering dollars, marketing dollars are being spent to give Saturn an image. The argument for keeping Saturn alive was that it was easier to give an image to a brand that had no image than to fix one of the other multiply damaged and cheap brands, all of this according to GM's own research. In other words, Saturn has no resonance in people's minds. Some people may think of the plastic panels or the friendly atmosphere, if they can think at all about it, and even then, it's more of a gimmick than a serious car line with seriously credible and safe alternatives. In other people's minds, who have looked at Saturn for the Vue or Ion, they just need time getting accustomed to the fact that Saturn has credible product in other segments now. People care about safety. This is a 25,000 purchase; you're not just going to throw your money away on something you know nothing about. We know about Saturn, because we are hardcore enthusiasts who read about this everyday. We are not good examples. People care about the legacy of the brand. The fact of the matter is, there are plenty good options out there from brands people trust. Too good is what I would call the competition. If aura is the best midsize sedan to us, then it is the one just trying to make a name for itself to others. It's an issue of comfort. When you see something enough, it becomes second nature to you. This is the idea that lead to Don Imus' racist words; it's the same in the car world. People are comfortable choosing something that is innately all around them. Saturn is not, has not and will not for the forseeable future qualify for that. If Aura were a Honda; it would likely be selling 400k a year. [but then we wouldn't have the fit/finish issues ] But then they'd have a comfort zone that people can play with there. Lack of dealers is hurting them. The general public simply doesn't want to deal with the inconvenience of going very far to look for their cars [in urban areas]. In rural areas it's different. The problem is Toyota and Honda make great cars, along with Nissan, Mazda, Ford even, etc etc...and their dealers are easily accessible. There are too many options, so if people have searched through three of the most renowned brands, they feel they've gotten the best of what they could get. The no haggle helps dramatically. I just saw an Outlook ad that promotes the car's Saturn-ness. This is incredibly important. There actually is haggling there, I mean you can negotiate, there is no dealer that would turn away a chance at profit because of principal. It's corporate policy, but it doesn't mean you can't haggle, in a friendly way. And I'm sure dealer policy is different for every dealer with regards to the GM card. It will take another generation of product for people to think of Saturn as more than just a marketing gimmick, more than just some forgettable airy commercials. It will take great advertising that takes advantage of Saturn's brief but incredibly reputable years on the market. It will take a new incredibly stylish Aura, and a new Sky.....to build a legacy for each of those cars, and convince them that Saturn is more than just a reliable and cute SUV and a small car. In the meantime, I expect big increases in the sales over the coming months, and years. Every new car that is released will help. The new Vue and new Astra will get showroom traffic increased like no one's business.

getting past some of the "errors", it's actually a nice looking car, and a great effort at aggression and luxury from Buick. The front end is too stubby in relation to the mile-long door. The front wheel to door position signifies this could be FWD. The detailing around the doors suffers because of the lighting and pre-concept photos we are seeing here; wait for the official intro. I love the simple fluidity for the rear, which to me is all Buick. The front is too high, I think, only because it's also stubby. I like the design language all around, but would something this radical ever make it into production as a Buick? It damn well should, if they ever want Buick to be looked at as a modern luxury make of curvaceous and supple cars.

thanks for the remarks on your experiences guys. anybody else got any experiences at the show they'd like to post?

Obama scored a record amount of donations--from small doners. I can't remember but I think it was like 100,000 donations came in at less than $100. What it means is he had more support from more people. Hilary counted on the bigger donations from the regular Democratic funders---whereas Obama had a real grass roots type drive. And he ended up with the second highest amount of money among all the candidates--Republican or Democrat. For someone who's only been in the Senate for two years, versus Hilary who's been in the national spotlight for one and half decades, that's saying something.

Edwards is actually a great candidate too. Obama has a huge following already, his popularity is beginning to soar. February really isn't so far away, and that's when so many states will be having the primary next year. By then, the race should be a lot more decided. If people took the time to investigate the candidates and listen and study them, on the Dem side, I think they're actually doing a really great job.

the chinese get the details right though. about the only cheap looking parts in the inteiror are the steering wheel and the emergency brake lever. the interior is creative and more thoughtfully designed than any current American Buick, and the exterior is trying to be upscale though its hampered by being merely an update of an old car. The chinese should get to do all the Buicks. I'm convinced. Oh, and a RWD Skylark based on Alpha for around 22k starting price is exactly what the doctor ordered for a compact car at Buick. Make it with an Ecotec that gets 35 mpg, and you've got a great fuel efficienct, safe, and fun car to drive when it needs to be.

ya, Romney hasn't really talked about the war. Though he HAS released a commercial that is very anti-Bush in its core message. There is no way I'd vote Republican with what this country wrought on itself for the last few years. I think it's time I said told you so. That's the last I'll say it. Though if we had to go Republican, I think i'd rather it be McCain, though Guliani would be okay too. The Iraq quagmire is obviously the most difficult situation. Those that really want to pull out are making it tough to stay conservative on that issue, because just as much as them, I want my troops home to their families. Whatever the line is right now, the Dems will have to stay with support troops at the very least. We will fulfill our commitment, in the end, I think. Which sucks. At this point I'm not arguing to stay in though, if they decide to pull out, then do it, if they stay in then do that. Sounds like sex. Either way there'll be tough consequences. Hmm...doesn't sound like sex anymore. I'll support Obama. His speeches are incredible. The words he uses speak of a deep philosophy on life and community. Americans need to be okay with being a community again, and taking care of one another, and understanding there is a deeper enemy...the spirit of discommunication and un-unity. I guess that's what they always say at every election isn't it.

the styling differences. the unique look of the saturn and buick, that really look un-GM ish. which is a good thing. I don't like that the GMC looks too much like the envoy. Envoy familarity isn't so good, especially when Trailblazer and Envoy are faltering now; they need a remake, I liked the Graphyte concept much better.

NG lacrosse needs to be a lot more mind-blowing and unexpected than Malibu. think what malibu means to chevy the everyday division, lacrosse needs to reflect that huge jump in refinement and sophistication and style for the premium brand. i'm hoping for something much more jaw-dropping in terms of a cohesive design and image than the recently introduced park ave. something more along the lines of what the riv concept is shaping up to be. i wish they'd do the park ave over here too, if it's long wheelbase, so that it could establish that benchmark of a really expensive Buick, even if it didn't sell that much, around 45k, that could help cover the DTS segment.

it definitely reminds you of the lexus IS320, well me at least. if this is the new direction for buick, sign me up.

It follows the surfacing effect of the Civic and Cr-V that creates a more luxurious effect. This alone makes it more expensive looking than any car in its class. If you look close enough the C-pillar has maintained that dramatic cut that gave the concept edge. But there are a few things that have changed, enough minor details to rob the concept of some sport and give the production less of a youthful feeling and more of a pampered luxury mobile. The car won't look anything like the Solara once the tape is off, so get that out of your head; i'm talking about minor details like the broadness of the c-pillar at the bottom edge; I figured out what the compromise was that has created the extended look out back. It's not that the bumper is actually any bigger at the leading edge from the trunk, but the rear wheel moved forward and the c-pillar base was largened, and the rear glass was made longer, all of this creating an effect of fater and wider at the rear behind the door. This is a compromise for rear seat headroom and room if there ever was any. The character line that connects the fender flares at the bottom of the car has lost some of its swoop and so has the line that runs across the door handles. All of this conspiring to make a more adult feeling car. Less of an appeal for me than the concept which I loved. It's not my taste, but it's still a nice coupe and definitely will play well to the market it has always attracted; I think the concept had a slightly better chance of attracting males though. It has a great stance; like the Civic but wider and more proportionally correct. I was just thinking the C-pillar thing is exactly what is happening with the Civic too, so it makes sense that they were thinking the same way for their uplevel coupe. It already looks a little more luxurious and modern than Malibu, definitely more than Camry, I think it'll be a closer call with the Malibu than most people here are giving credit for.

gminsider.com? that doesn't exist. too bad GM didn't consult with this site...I think I and several others could have some good words to give them.

what about the G8 V6?

it's great how quickly Ford moves.

two cities is such a narrow focus. Did I happen to mention there are three cities just in this intro, and two of them are some of the biggest in the world and culturally significant, in the world. If you had read the article, or at least skimmed over it like I just did, you would have seen the part that talks about GM gaining traction, and retail sales outperforming the industry average. But the focus of the article was on the pandemic that is domestic car sales in this country, and it is directly centered around big city sales, since, gasp, the big cities have the densest populations of the country. When you have dense populations you have massive opportunity for word of mouth, such as what Toyota and Honda are benifitting now from. IT would be stupid business for the domestics to ignore the reasons for failure in these cities. So the big cities are the focus.

the bigger cities [i.e. not just LA and Miami; even Chicago, a typical domestic stronghold is going import faster than you know it] are where the domestics have the hardest time selling products, not the Midwest. If you want them to continue to cater to the desires of the Midwest only, it's like attacking Iraq instead of going into Pakistan, Afghanistan and Syria when your goal is to get Al-qaeda.

Quality can mean a lot of things, so let's leave that term out. I do believe reliable and durable are two seperate issues. Reliability to me implies a car won't break down...it will last longer without having major parts that fail. Durability implies the condition these parts will maintain over time. To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a study that shows GM has equaled Toyota and Honda's superior level of durability. For me, growing up it was never a story of GM being unreliable, just that the way the car held up over time was subpar to Toyota and Honda's. That is the supreme legacy that still holds up those automakers in my mind, and to many consumers, and is one of the reasons resale is so great for those imports. I guess BMW and MB have this same sort of reputation for parts holding up [ not for being reliable though] over time too, but to a lesser degree. It has never been disproven to me, and still remains a solid argument against purchasing anything domestic. That is why the line "American cars are junk" "American cars aren't built the same" "American cars don't hold up" etc etc is so complex to completely honestly and impartially argue, for me, cause I'm an honest and neutral person, unlike 90% of the people on this board.

can carry 2-3 in back plus luggage. I guess only foreign families qualify under this rule