turbo200

you're right, my bad. i was going off what i paid for the car... just below invoice. the rest is opinion. mazda3 gets horrible gas mileage for what it is, other than that I can't think of a fault, other than lower resale values than the civic. the civic is futurstic, the 3 is aggressive. Both are nice looking cars and it's hard to find a faults in the lines. As far as the drive is concerned I think the civic has it over the 3, but that's personal opinion after extensive time with both.

that sounds thrilling......[sarcasm]

the civic feels and looks like the modern, expensive car it is. for better handling, better packaging, comfortable seats, incredible ergonomics of control, driving position, better looks.....a thorough car all around. All at 23k for a hybrid with Navi/XM. It's an impressive car in its price class. In a car that can achieve 50 mpg [my own recorded mpg is 45 on a tank of car still breaking-in, less than 1000 miles on odo]. It feels like it's a more "bells and whistles" kind of car, better than the average LS impala you can get for the same price. At all prices for the Impala, I just feel there are better cars out there for the money, though I can see many reasons to choose the Impala. Although, subjectively we could find reasons for buying all cars, the Impala overall falls flat in the face of more modern competition. I'd choose a standard 4 cyl Accord over Impala any day for the better road feel and better package effeciency.

i just got a hybrid, on my first tank I got 45 mpg, with less than 1000 miles on the odo. That is with an abundance of city driving, albeit careful driving, and lots of hills, I drive through a canyon [~20 mi] 5 days to go to work. I hope as the break in occurs, and I perfect my hybrid/CVT driving ability, my Civic will get closer to the 50 mpg mark. Whether a diesel, a hybrid, or regular gas engine, getting this kind of mileage is truly wonderful in times of high gas prices and long commutes.

the emphasis on more is to imply that the hatches will also be sold where they traditionally haven't done well? like America?

it's way too early for anyone to make serious declarations on where the car will be built, besides those in the know, but I think like Epsilon and Zeta are being designed to be built in modular factories with platforms that share commonality all around the world, the same will be true with Delta. GM is just getting the most mileage it can out of unique designs and its platforms. The only thing I would say is a concern right now is the execution---this better be on the same page as the Buick Riviera Shanghai in dramatic design inside and out befitting of a luxury car, and with the right quality.

I think what he's asking for is more along the lines of Boss Mustang or Bullit Mustang. I don't know the history of Camaro well enough to qualify here, but any special edition packages would be nice. Just remember, unlike Ford, that special editions need to be "special", i.e. not available every model year and only for a limited timeframe, and not available next to ten other "special editions".

the bottom line is hoping that Toyota and Honda will suddenly have a downspell in reliability is a bad strategy... for GM.

We can agree that all across the board carmakers are making better cars than ever. We can agree that sometimes there seems to be a bias at Consumer Reports in their reporting methods, though this would need to be substantiated with further investigation for it to be fully true and for me to stand behind it on that. We can agree that recalls and quality problems can happen to any company, regardless of country of origin.We cannot agree, I guess if you won't concede this, that Honda and Toyota are known for reliable cars that don't break down and in general give less problems than the competition from GM, in the past, and that in this present time we do not know enough about the reliability of GM's newest products to quantify them with anything, but we can say with certainty that based on the past records, Toyota and Honda will continue to make bullet proof products, barring miniscule cases all seemingly revolved around the C&G universe. If you cannot agree with these statements I've made then you are disavowing the fact of so many buyers have migrated from American cars to other makes, and why they have applied the "reliability formula" to all Japanese cars, as inherently superior than what us Americans can make. The JD Power thing was for initial quality only, I can make a car with great initial quality even. Give me long term reliability reports and you will have my ear, that is what people care about and why they left GM/Ford/Chrysler in the first place.

I knew that when I typed that post I would get someone responding with the old "statiscal problems" at CR. Does anyone really think this is news to me? I did say in the above post that it wasn't just CR that is a reporter of reliability averages, and that there is a consensus. There's even a consensus among the general public! In the sales figures! Wow, that's a crazy notion. People buying cars because they're built well and turning away in droves from cars that provided horrible expereinces. There's a consensus amongst auto mechanics! You get the lone wolf on C&G claiming all American cars are easier to work on than Hondas, but then you speak to every small time mechanic at the local shop with no affiliation whatsoever who swears by Japanese cars. There's also other industry sources besides CR that concur across the line Toyota and Honda have some of the best reliability everywhere.Hey Oldsmoboi, when you mention the sludge problems and the Honda transmissions, don't forget to mention the Ford 3.8 gasket problem, the notorious 6 cyl Chrysler transmissions, the ever present missing headlight bulb on Chevy trucks, the unreliable Quad 2.2 engines, etc etc..... And I thought I would have to put this "reading" away for sometime when I had a good amount of time to fully absorb it.

1) this pricing is limiting, my first choice for a new car were I to be in that price range would be to wait until I could afford a new BMW 3 coupe or cabrio, since in the flesh it is one of the most standout designs on the market, however under the 30k range, it would have to be my ultimate favorite flexible sporty small car, the Volkswagen GTI 4 door. Tie a surfboard to the top, take the dog for a walk in the park in the cargo area or in the rear passenger cabin, carry loads of goods in the ample cargo area, all at once looking hip and status-conscious in a fun to drive, fast compact car. Sure it isn't gas efficient, but if you're conscious doesn't lie in protecting the environment or saving money on gas, then this car is a little wonder. And it has arguably one of the better looking exteriors and interiors in the price range, for any car. runner-ups would be Saab 9-3 and Mazdaspeed 32)this is a tough one, especially not having a full list in front of me and being short on recollection. BUT, the Geely car or whatever Chinese car coming the next year, or any other marque that attempts an intro in the US will be significant at pointing to a trend for this decade for the US economy as a whole. We are reaching a fill point where the number of product intros, selection, and prowess of the products is so markedly different from anything ever seen before, but at the same time it is inundating us with choice and advancement. The US car industry is becoming a wasteland of a barrage of makes and cars all fighting for space and pushing each other towards the next big thing; I imagine for a car company like GM stuck in the netherworld apparently it is unbeleivably difficult to keep up with the changes. Furthermore, the changes to the societal landscape and how much we have to occupy our time with; it's unlike any time before. 3) Since your initial post there has been a repositioning of Saturn as an American brand. Attaching and identity and a lineage to Saturn is unlike anything before it since Saturn has always been sort of a flower power car and nothing more. If ever there was a car make that could get away with nothing but underpowered, solar-powered, or wood-based chassis or whatever it would be Saturn. Saturn had that image of being quirky but at the same time not a serious car make. GM built the EV1 that looked like a Saturn, and Saturn had such different styling that was fun and had funny expression and they had the plastic panels. But as a competitor to Honda, it was never looked at seriously. $25,000 or the average transaction price of a car, is simply too much to spend to spend in a place that is unfamiliar. Giving Saturn a history rather than a 20 year abortion story, leads people to understand what a Saturn is. GM needs to move on to identify exact pinpoints at which Aura beats the competition, Camry and Accord, in significant categories. They need to give Aura a history, and not have people questioning the validity of Aura even existing. Aura hybrid needs to be a centerpoint of commercials, the mileage must be a focal point and revealed in the commercial and focused on, along with pricing and the attractive looks of the Aura. Aura is a good product, but it has shortcomings, focus on real benefits it offers with actual comparisons, and in the meantime try to rectify some or one of the shortcomings that is easier to rectify. We all know people will pay for the right car, so the hybrid must be a real hybrid, not one that sells on price like so many of GM's cars. It's still a good sell to have a hybrid, and some of the mileage benefits will be there, but not nearly as strong as GM should be shooting for. Whatever two mode or plug in hybrid systems are coming need to be injected into the most important cars stat, one of those being Aura. 4)more emotive/expressive design obviously has been a trend for some time, along with an emphasis on interior execution levels. This will only continue to rise, and competition will become extreme to only benefit the consumer. hybrid powertrains should rightfully be everywhere they can be, all the way up to muscle cars with V6 engines and a hybrid electric powerplant to attain a miraculous 40 mpg highway mark. the bigger trend over the next decade will be a proliferation of models, choices, brands that will lead everybody to look elsewhere from the mainline manufacturers who will lose share, while inevitably these choices will fade away into the background as the big companies increase the competitive quotient more than ever as they are already doing.

on fuel economy alone, the Vibe is GM's only competitive car in the small car arena, when compared to the leaders.

sing it sister! [-Jerry Seinfeld]I can attest to the HHR's crap resale value. Your story is not a stretch, the trade in value on the HHR is ridiculously low. I think crappy fuel mileage has to do with it. On that note, why hasn't GM installed any freakin hybrid systems in its smallest, supposedly efficient cars? Why do they score amongst the worst for fuel mileage in the small car category, where it matters the MOST? Why are they so behind the times, seemingly forever? Why can't the right decisions be made to pull them into the competitive environment that is today's automotive landscape?

this is merely one example. one situation. reliability is an average. Consumer Reports is a collection of the average, and they report which cars on average are the best. Since they are not the only source that beleives Toyota and Honda are the most reliable, it gives evidence to that fact. One can accurately vouch for reliability when there is a consensus. All this arguing is simply silly when the facts don't change. The facts are out there for people to investigate, and they state Honda and Toyota are the most reliable. With that in mind, GM can only hope to be as reliable as T/H are. Right now they are behind, and the facts point to other automakers being less reliable than GM. Since they are not in the worst position, it is up to them to build desirable vehicles that will draw more consumers in to hopefully give them a chance at proving their reliability.

about the only thing this car needs is to be updated and refreshened anyways. A new more streamlined and more masculine shape. A better interior. Hopefully better engine choices, and a tighter ride, and this car would again be very competitive. I like the way the Vibe fits in to the lineup. A really convincingly modern and not overly [current] Pontiac-esque garish exterior [the big headlights the big grille the tacky cladding the unconvincing athleticism]. Make it a wagon BMW would be proud to own, and you have Pontiac's perfect FWD entry level car. They don't need another Delta or Gamma, unless it's a RSX copy. That's how you do Pontiac performance for the mainstream.

hmmm....the tide of the comments seems to be stemming in the direction of my original opinion. bwahaha......no, this car will be a success no matter what has been said. it will find an audience with its retro modern semi agressive looks. but it strives way too hard to be contemporary and not break any ground. the front end is real nice, most everything else is like everything else. it is still one of the better looking luxury sedans. However, in an age of CLS's and the upcoming Jaguar and BMW sedans, a car company known for a completely aggressive turn just took a completely conservative turn. I'm actually a big fan of the rear bubble look that harkens back to old Caddies; from side profile it's most evident, it's also in the 1st gen CTS, it's a good look and a break from the norm. I wish more of this car's design were like that.

where have we seen the EPA figures the Enclave? Are you sure it's for the '08. 16/24 is what the Acadia and Outlook were rated at, it doesn't make sense that the new testing methods would not decrease the mileage at all. But who knows. The Vue is certainly a great car, and I love the last two paragraphs revealing the competency of the marketplace. All cars are reaching a nexus point of general goodness. Thank God GM has caught on and is revealing products that are dramatic improvements over before, and have a truly appealing character and design. This Saturn inside and out can best be described as fashionable. Chicks and moms will dig this big time.

I have a lot I could say about this season, but then I'd look a little too obsessive. The bottom line for me is this was the worst season I have ever watched [been watching since season 2] in terms of talent. There's pieces of it here and there. Jordin has a great voice but no personality and no emotional depth for performance. Blake can do really incredible things with certain songs; but it comes across as simple, and he likes to do it too much, and his voice is not unique and his ability is nothing special. Melinda is best as a Broadway singer; she's boring, uninspiring, I don't get any feeling from watching her, except "meh". I decided Tuesday was the last day I was watching of this season, after I thought the three did three songs that they've always done, in the same tone they've always done, and the same expressions they've always done. Granted, the Whitney Houston song was different for Melinda, but it proved to much of a challenge, and reminded me yet again that the best singer there was and always has been Lakisha Jones. Lakisha was dismissed because of poor song choice and because she closed up later on into the show. But when she started out she was a knockout, from personality, story, emotion, grit, and talent. She was the complete picture. Melinda is full of spirit, and yet so monotone. On that note, she has no tonal range whatsoever. She sounds the same, always! I would not pay for her album or to hear her perform in that same dreaded tone, it's annoying. There have been so much better top 12's. I think at this point, the best performer may be Blake. He may be able to do something cool with his album, but he's certainly not the most talented. But in terms of an all around performer, I think he's just a little better than Jordin. They're both pretty robotic though.

this car is still three years out. is there reason for speculation/favor/criticism? we're looking at a design that won't reach our shores until 2010 MY, at the earliest.

what does this mean for UAW?

prospects don't look so good for it. i would have to see malibu side by side to tell you which is better, but the boring race is going to honda for sure. what's with the overhang?

okay i'm not gonna lie, can you pm the explanation?

everything on GMI seems hard to believe. there's never anyone to stop the wild speculation, from when I've been over there, which is rarely since it's such a maze.

what would be poetic justice is every "practical" mind here who cries for FWD be forced to also drive hybrids only. The slowest damn hybrids all into FWDs. And then let the market dictate that RWD cars have a range of options. Since the reason for having FWD is because it's "mainstream" and "practical" and "safe". What's safer than a 110 hp FWD car? But getting serious, a Zeta car with a weight of about 3600 lbs, and a 2.2 4-cyl DI with 180 hp would be great as the volume model, imo. Acheive gas mileage of 28/35 and you'd have all the midsizers beat. Of course, the reality of GM is they would never have this kind of forward thinking. Of course, Alpha would be truly suited to efficient 4 cyl. 4 cyl engines can be fun!, witness the Accord 4-cyl, in stick shift mode that car is fun tight light tossable and refined, and gas efficient.

are they totally gone for Civic hybrid? the CNG you have to get this at home natural gas machine, right? you'd have to have a garage for that....which I don't. I'm not just getting it for the carpool lane, but that would be disappointing. I can get a hybrid $500 over invoice, around 19k for a 50 mpg car that is as good as the Civic, really compelling