balthazar

>>"The SSR holds the road like no other truck I've driven, begging the question: Is this a truck or a sports car? The line has been totally blurred."<< Another opinion. Everything is overweight today. SSR is only 400 lbs more than one 2-seat roadster. Or look at it this way: about 300 lbs heavier than my all-steel '59 Buick coupe.

Nice pics, Raven. Feedback: LOVE that big Ford !! G8 looks better in your shot than the official ones- raises my hopes a bit. G6 GXP doesn't look bad; grille doesn't bother me at all in your shot. In contrast, I liked the dedicated-thread pics of the 3 Chevy minis better- the cars looked less lumpy & strange in there than here. Not sure which way to take that. Are those neon tubes in the taillights of the CTS ?

That's just it- it's not expected nor intended to do anything but sell well, improve showroom traffic & marque image. There's no "saving" involved. Just pointing ("ranting") that out.

So the clarifier is: this is the first purpose-built small-block NASCAR engine with unique spec parameters.... because I believe there have been numerous race motors (primarily big- or mid-blocks) that either appeared first or simultaneously for race, then production. Some were built for race and never saw production. I hate when in an eagerness to proclaim a 'first', and entire catalog of effort and engineering is brushed aside.

sputter!-- what ?!? "it's lineage"? There is no lineage.Gorgeous '59 225, BTW.

sputter!-- what ?!? "it's lineage"? There is no lineage.Gorgeous '59 225, BTW.

>>"...even if it is a success, it alone, in it's current form is not enough to save Pontiac. "<< I struggle to think of a historical instance, from any time or any country, where a seriously in-trouble marque was 'saved' by a single model. This is frequently thrown out with wild abandonment to unilaterally dismiss upcoming offerings, esp in GM's case. 'The Malibu won't save GM, the G8 won't save Pontiac, the Enclave won't save Buick'... who at the corporate level ever thought one model would ?? WHy does this cliche' criticism continue to thrive? >>"Pontiac is not in the same boat as they were in 1997. Today they are part Buick, Pontiac and GMC and do not need to sell car is a high volume in each brand as all three brands now equal one division."<< Of course: correct.

Yes, Tremulis was far ahead of his time. Most of the production Tucker's features copied by other makes took 15-25 years or more to appear. Mathmatically-calculated .cd was .27 (it was rounded up to .30 publically). Production cars didn't approach that .cd until the '80s. Tremulis got fired from Ford in the early '60s reportedly for proposing a gyroscopically-balanced 2-wheel car. I give you Tremulis's 1961 Ford Gyron:

Talisman was drawn in the early/mid 1950s.

>>"be glad Pontiac is getting a world class sedan that is able to put a BMW to shame. It may not be perfect in your eyes, but it's not ugly by any means, not yet another FWD vehicle, not a rebadge of anything sold here, and not lacking in many ways."<< Egg-zack-tea-leave what was said by many about another recent Holden/Pontiac.... can't... recall... the... model name.... I want to say it again- I hope I am wrong on the G8 and it is Charger-hot or moreso, but as a lifetime Pontiac enthusiast, I was hoping for more still. Is that wrong?

Is rat flesh technically "beef"?

>>"1979 was the last 400ci [6.6L] "Pontiac" engine, the 301 ci motor lasted through 1981."<< 400 is not a "Pontiac" motor, it is a Pontiac motor. >>"Argue all day, but since 1926, [yes Pontiac existed before 1964] Pontiac has been a division of GM, not a 'special car company'. It started out as an Oakland model. ...It has shared the Chevy body since it was an Oakland car, too."<< I won't argue, but I will tell you the facts: Pontiac was NEVER an Oakland model. The division was PAIRED WITH Oakland, which was another (founding) division of General Motors. They shared nothing but the same factory for 1 year. >>"The old so called 'real' Ponchos still share numerous parts with other GM divisions."<< Yeah, major identifying components like radiators and generators and carbs and... glass and.... light bulbs. In reality, a very strict minority percentage-wise. General Motors could've mandated a much greater degree of part cross-sharing even in the '50s, but the reality of the era was that GM was primarily a financial overseer and each division had it's own budget and empowered general manager and each often went against the scant corporate rule list to get what they wanted to accomplish done. I have been restoring my '59 Buick for 11 years now... believe me- I at times I wish a greater degree of part-sharing went on then. Tons of Chevy stuff including full sheetmetal panels- almost nothing for B-59s. Why? Because there's zero "Chevy" parts under it. >>"That 1964 GTO still has many "64 Chevelle" parts under it."<< How do you know what parts are Chevelle and what parts are GTO?? Take a look at the period's volume lines- the full-size series. There are very very few interchangable components there- I estimate less than 7% for '64. >>"It was all the marketing in the 60's that made car fans back then think of GM's makes as 'special car companies'."<< Bull&#036;h&#33;. These were not belly-button badge-jobs cars that were identified by marketing campaigns, but divisional-combative efforts from segregated camps that incorporated division-specific engineering... cars produced have become some of the most iconic and sought-after and valuable this country has ever seen.

What is this crap? I assume this 'documentation' concerns pop-quizzing Americans who have not studied for the citizenship test. As if that was proof of anything except how to point out the self-haters (those pointing at said Americans and proclaiming: 'Look what dumb f*cks they are!!').Did you like cars before you were able to drive? Did you pass your driver's test? Did you study for it? Uh-huh.

'63 Ford Falcoon convertible- nice resto '57 Dodge Royal 2-dr hardtop- beautiful resto '61 Olds Super 88 2-dr hardtop- very clean survivor '60 Chevy El Camino- Kustom material

Most Pontiac enthusiasts define the 'last real Pontiac' by the engine ('79 and the 400). But Pontiac lost a huge amount of respect and enthusiasm when the Pontiac engine program died, and tho that was not the only factor, it was an important one. There has been a ton of change in the past few decades, but it has not always been for the better - so I harbor no ill will to those who recognize and appreciate greatness. And that's what the '60s were for Pontiac; it's not merely sappy nostalgia. We can accept the change of the '90s/'00s or we can aspire for better- it's everyman's choice. I know I lost a lot of love for Pontiac come the '80s and '90s. They became much more pedestrian & less special to me. I grew up on late '70s and '80s Pontiacs but all 7 I've owned to date have been from the '60s. It's certainly not nostolgia for me- my Pontiacs have all been older than me. It's a recognition of a great run of road machines. I consider myself 'a Pontiac man', and tho those from the '90s thru today that I've experienced have been fine transportation, they've failed to stir the soul. I would LOVE for Pontiac to enact a renaissance ala Cadillac's or Saturn's, to capture even half of the fire that drove the division in the '60s... not looking for blatant design cues (tho there are numerous ones to pay homage to and such would be nice)... I want the fire to return. hyper- I like and accept the criteria regarding your Fiero- those are meaningful stats in my book that I was unaware of. I have new respect for the Fiero now.

I'm with the 23%.

>>"People who characterize immigrants based on a few bad apples are just spurious and ignorant."<< Likewise those that characterise "most Americans" based on a few bad apples. Some >>"Americans like to blame all the (perceived) problems in the country on this vague, faceless group called"<< Americans. >>"Most Americans wouldn't pass the citizenship test"<< Most drivers can't changed their own oil. Most college students wouldn't pass college tests... unless they studied for them. Why would Americans study for a test they already aced (ie: they ARE citizens)? >>"most Southern and Eastern European immigrants often got here through semi-legal means (at best) "<< Really? Fascinating. Sources, please. >>"Oh, and the US has no official language. "<< This is merely a duck around the issue; so there is no specific law proclaiming a particular language as 'official'. I ask you- what language has every law ever written in this country been in? That's more than enough for anyone to recognize it as "official" without a paper technicality behind it.

'97regalGS' >>"...look for Integras, Civics, Corollas, Preludes. these were the cars of the youth of that generation. (few folks were goo goo ga gaing over cavaliers.)"<< No one ever went goo-goo over a corolla, either. Ramblers were also inexpensive cars that people of the '60s bought- check their values today (beyond the Javelin/AMX). >>"people with cash buy tri 5 chevys cause they grew up with them. the next generation is buying muscle cars. when it gets to the 80's it will be the japanese invasion."<< For that to be true, the owners of Tri-5 Chevy would have to be getting steadily older and values would at the least level off if not drop, but they are not. The Tri-5 has trascended popular opinion right into permanent icon status. Muscle cars have already far exceeded '50s cars in appreciation and those numbers are still climbing. Whether japanese econoboxes follow suit is unknown at this point. Somewhere, there is someone collecting any vehicle you can think of, but as a long-time auto enthusiast, I just do not see a great deal to indicate '80s japanese vehicles will catapault in value after musclecars...

Visibility is excellent because the pillars are 1/3rd the size of modern pillars and of course the A-Pillar is at the least obstructive angle for visibility... yet somehow the pillars manage to be stronger. Progress, doncha know. Another big safety factor- you know where all 4 corners of the car are at all times. Hood is not much longer than modern big cars, tho of course it's wider. Does your girl have the full fan guard that closes off the space between the radiator and the cross-brace, or just the 3" wide bracket to the radiator?

Sly- you must've noticed how close the seat bottom is to the floor- I've not been in another car where my legs are so nearly horizontal. I have no problem with it- it's part of the B-59 charm. But it was a bit of an engineering overlap: the 'old school' of a flat front floorpan and the 'new school' of a very low roofline.

Is a Pontiac a slightly-modified Chevy or is a Chevy a slightly-modified Pontiac? Are Olds' modified Buicks or modified Pontiacs? Or {gasp} modified Chevys, too? GM has not developed cars in a manner that would lend validity to "modified Chevy" in decades.

Sixty8- gotten used to the seating position in the LeSabre yet? :wink:

You need to go look up the automotive definition of "rebadge", because those examples you posted are nothing of the sort.

Well, 'mercedes' has been in control of the purse strings since '98, no? No one besides Dodgefan dare to point a finger over that way??

That may be your defintion of 'real' Pontiacs... again: not what others of us are advocating, sorry. You are primarily focusing on under-the-skin specs above, which has been unilaterally praised here. The disagreement is over the exterior design. The 'fence' between the 2 camps here seemingly is the fact that this is a stop-gap car. Some are embracing it because there is no other prompt offering coming. Others are not-so-fast-to-love because they hold Pontiac to a higher ideal reflective of where Pontiac has been, regardless if another vehicle is coming in the near future or not.