BuddyP

I know a lot of you won't agree with me on this but I'm still not convinced this "UAW" bailout is the way to go. It simply will not solve the issues. It'll prolong an already somewhat bad situation. Let's just go through Chapter 11, if they can't get the crediters, then use the $15b for that and to cover warranty if GM did fail (which I highly doubt). Restructer. This will not work without major restructuring at this point. More people may suffer up front but let's get it done and over with and back on track. More people will slowly suffer over time otherwise. GM has so much bad baggage that could be completely cut free with Chapt. 11. I am for this because after reading and reading into all of this over the past couple months, this will be the best way to preserve GM for the future. I can't see GM coming out better if they are gov't regulated and are restricted of what they can build. You guys will not be happy within a few months. You can absolutly bet that if the bailout does go through, many will not buy GM products because of that. I have also just heard that the repubs have thrown out a proposal that the UAW matches.... MATCHES... wages and productivity that Honda and Toyota have here in the US. You know the UAW won't go for that!

Read about this awhile back, but here and article and some pics of a full working concept..... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,465329,00.html

Unfortunatly the majority of american's are greedy and live in the "moment". Eventually it's going to kick us all in the ass... and it might be starting now.

The demand for GM cars didn't drop 80% in the past year either but the stock price did. Two different variables there. And if China's currently shakey economy does collapse look for oil to drop to around $25 a barrel meaning possibly $1 or just over a gallon gas for us.

And great time on a good article writeup....just in time to be completely drownded out by the bad press about the bailout loan.

Irronically though if you compare these vehilces against the mid 2000's Toyota's, Kia's, Hyundai's.... the GM products looked pretty darn good.

Sounds like this might have been line item "A" of the stipulation list to get the loan??

I'm not referring to the bailout plan, I was referring to where Dodd, Frank and Pelosi were a year ago when this was all brewing, they had to know. Bush warned of this in '03, McCain again in '05. This led to the credit crunch today. Now people can't get car loans as easy to buy new vehicles, along with an economy scare keeping other from buying new as well.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/...rings-attached/ This paragraph scares the hell out of me... what it means to me is no Camaro, no Corvette, no GXP's. Basically GM could turn into a maker of true cookie cutter gov't mandated automobiles.

It NEEDED improvement. I still do NOT want to see any Chinese built anything in this country.

I don't know enough about Wagoner to say that he needs to be fired, but one thing I know is if the auto makers follow what Dodd says, they'd probably be in worse shape than they are now. Dodd is worthless. He's one who got us into this bailout mess in the first place with the banks. You can't tell me that the "Banking Chairman" didn't see this coming, and if he truley didn't, then he obvisouly can't do his job.

This is the part of multiple brands that I like... each has his/her own taste in styling. While I really like the styling of the Solstice, I like the Sky a bit better. And while I like the G6, I find the Aura not only better looking but trimmed out nicer as well.... hence why we bought the Aura vs a G6 (we initially were going to get a G6 GT).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,462284,00.html

Just that the Sky is the better looking of the two, more agressive front end and nicer looking interior. Just like Saturn got the better looking G6 (Aura)

Yup, Pelosi even has her own jet.... Gingrich never had one when he was speaker.

Was gonna say '64-'65 Chevelle but that does look to be a Biscayne.

For those of you that have a chance to stream through the internet through the day, go to foxnews.com, click on "radio" in the upper left hand corner. "Brian and the Judge" (9am-12 EST) and Tom Sullivan (3pm-6pm) are two of the "shows" that have been discussing the auto ordeal. However, seem to be against Detroit and have a LOT... and I mean MANY misconceptions of the auto company. Even callers saying "I drive an american car... one's built in Ohio, one in Kentucky..." referring to Honda's and Toyota's, you know how it is. Anyway, everybody that has a chance needs to listen and call in, here's the number.... http://www.foxnews.com/radio/index.html 1-866-859-2788 Explain how Toyota was able to come into the US and setup at GM's dealer networks that GM spent millions setting up, explain why they decided to build down south, explain why Toyota hires temps, explain that some of their vehicles built in the US are only ASSEMBLED here, made up mostly of imported parts. It's now OUR turn! I'll be listening for you guys to call in!

The media is going to do what it has done best... and kill GM. They dont' have a chance with today's media and complete and total lack of knowledge from the media and Congress. Am currently listening to Foxnews talk radio and was Flabbergasted with on "Brian and the judge", Brian made a comment of Wagoner driving a Malibu and then Judge Andrew says "is that the type of behicle that Schwartzenager drives" (meaning a Hummer). WTF? Are you kidding me? And another lady that worked for Chrystler called in and mentioned something about the Challenger 6.1L and he says "what's that". And after listening to all the uninformed callers I really came to realize the total lack of perception GM still has. They still build cars that are "out of date", "unefficient" and that "nobody wants to buy" (even though GM is #1 in sales).

I drove one and love the car, I was very comfortable in it. If I were in the market for a new car or lightly used, I'd seriously consider the G8.

Yup..... I don't get it. They may as well just have Chevy and Cadillac, kill everything else and be done with it

Great... so actually Buick will be the first Chinese vehicle sold in the US.... (Very disgusted!)

Aside from Hummer and Saab, each brand could still stay but with a narrowed lineup of cars. There is no reason for each brand having a version of a platform. Multiple platforms and rebadges are fully the fault of GM being passive to the dealers. GM needs to STOP following the dealers orders and tell the dealers what they will sell. Chevy can stay pretty much as it is... it's the bread and butter. Pontiac... Solstice, G6 (but make it more performance oriented), G8 Buick... Enclave and a new mid/large size car (yup, 2 models) Saturn... Sky, aura, Astra Vue (4 models because they are independant dealerships) Cadillac... CTS, STS, Escalade I left aura, g6 and Malibu in since that is a high volume platform, and this gives 3 different design choices for buyers to choose from. However I still don't see a need for Buick. The Enclave could be moved over to Cadillac as a SRX replacement. In that case, give Saturn a larger "Lucerne" type car. GMC doesn't need to be here since it consists fully of rebadges. Sell Saab and Hummer.

Once again, Saturn outsells Buick month after month.... but put Saturn on the chopping block.

Toyota Reports November Sales Dec. 2 /PRNewswire/ Link to Article TORRANCE, Calif., Dec. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today reported November sales of 130,307 vehicles, a decrease of 33.9 percent from last November, on a daily selling rate basis. The Toyota Division posted November sales of 114,084 units, a decrease of 33.8 percent from last November. The Lexus Division reported November sales of 16,223 units, a decrease of 34.7 percent from the year-ago month. Toyota Division Toyota Division passenger cars recorded November sales of 68,013 units, down 31.1 percent from the same period last year. Passenger car sales were led by Camry and Camry Hybrid, which posted combined sales of 25,224 units. Camry Hybrid reported November sales of 2,174 units. Corolla recorded sales of 21,807 units. Yaris reported sales of 4,545 units for the month. The Prius mid-size gas-electric hybrid posted November sales of 8,660 units. Toyota Division light trucks posted November sales of 46,071 units, down 37.4 percent from November 2007. Light truck sales were led by the RAV4 compact SUV with November sales of 9,260 units. The Tacoma mid-size pickup reported sales of 8,648 units for the month. Highlander and Highlander Hybrid posted combined sales of 7,887 units. The Highlander Hybrid gas-electric mid- size SUV reported sales of 907 units. Sequoia posted sales of 1,873 units for the month, up 51.9 percent over the same period last year. Scion posted November sales of 5,275 units. The xB urban utility vehicle led the way with sales of 2,161 units. The tC sports coupe recorded sales of 1,728 units. The xD reported sales of 1,386 units for the month. Lexus Division Lexus passenger cars reported November sales of 8,941 units, a decrease of 40.0 percent from November 2007. Passenger car sales were led by the ES entry luxury sedan with November sales of 4,116 units. The IS entry luxury sport sedan reported combined sales of 2,749 units. The LS flagship luxury sedan reported combined sales of 1,272 units. The GS luxury sport sedan reported combined November sales of 721 units. Lexus Division light trucks recorded November sales of 7,282 units, down 26.9 percent from the year-ago month. Lexus sales were led by the RX luxury utility vehicle, which posted combined November sales of 5,850 units. The RX 400h hybrid luxury utility vehicle reported sales of 624 units for the month. TMS Hybrids TMS calendar-year-to-date hybrid sales totaled 229,204 units. TMS posted November sales of 12,444 hybrid vehicles. Toyota Division recorded sales of 11,741 hybrids for the month. Lexus Division reported November sales of 703 hybrids. There were 25 selling days this month and last November. Public Web sites: http://www.toyota.com http://www.lexus.com http://www.scion.com TOYOTA RETAIL SALES (INCLUDES FLEET & HAWAII) November, 2008 ----- CURRENT MONTH ----- -- CALENDAR YEAR TO DATE -- DSR % DSR % 2008 2007 CHG 2008 2007 CHG YARIS 4,545 5,448 -16.6 97,911 79,322 23.0 COROLLA 21,807 25,012 -12.8 328,878 342,808 -4.4 CAMRY 25,224 35,409 -28.8 411,342 434,277 -5.6 AVALON 2,502 6,523 -61.6 40,354 67,251 -40.2 PRIUS 8,660 16,737 -48.3 151,025 167,009 -9.9 SCION xA 0 20 -100.0 39 9,533 -99.6 SCION xB 2,161 3,842 -43.8 43,426 42,049 2.9 SCION tC 1,728 3,845 -55.1 39,632 60,345 -34.6 SCION xD 1,386 1,912 -27.5 26,680 9,310 185.6 TOTAL TOYOTA DIV. PASS. CAR 68,013 98,749 -31.1 1,139,289 1,211,910 -6.3 ES 4,116 5,902 -30.3 58,899 74,862 -21.6 LS 1,272 2,668 -52.3 18,804 31,969 -41.4 SC 83 268 -69.0 1,870 3,579 -47.9 GS 721 2,205 -67.3 14,559 20,802 -30.3 IS 2,749 3,849 -28.6 45,893 49,282 -7.2 TOTAL LEXUS PASS. CAR 8,941 14,892 -40.0 140,025 180,494 -22.7 TOTAL TOYOTA PASS. CAR 76,954 113,641 -32.3 1,279,314 1,392,404 -8.4 SIENNA 6,153 10,290 -40.2 109,043 125,812 -13.6 RAV4 9,260 12,354 -25.0 128,225 158,936 -19.6 FJ CRUISER 2,147 3,699 -42.0 25,500 51,091 -50.3 4RUNNER 3,310 6,117 -45.9 44,171 80,297 -45.2 HIGHLANDER 7,887 12,312 -35.9 96,870 113,164 -14.7 LAND CRUISER 186 614 -69.7 3,574 2,603 36.8 SEQUOIA 1,873 1,233 51.9 28,294 20,706 36.2 TOTAL SUV 24,663 36,329 -32.1 326,634 426,797 -23.7 4X2 TACOMA 4,511 7,053 -36.0 75,484 94,838 -20.7 4X4 TACOMA 4,137 4,932 -16.1 60,478 65,111 -7.4 TOTAL TACOMA 8,648 11,985 -27.8 135,962 159,949 -15.3 TUNDRA 6,607 14,988 -55.9 128,058 177,336 -28.0 TOTAL PICKUP 15,255 26,973 -43.4 264,020 337,285 -22.0 TOTAL TOYOTA DIV. LT TRUCK 46,071 73,592 -37.4 699,697 889,894 -21.7 LX 424 71 497.2 7,407 2,336 216.0 GX 1,008 1,847 -45.4 15,044 20,287 -26.1 RX 5,850 8,038 -27.2 74,249 91,505 -19.1 TOTAL LEXUS LIGHT TRUCK 7,282 9,956 -26.9 96,700 114,128 -15.6 TOTAL TOYOTA LIGHT TRUCK 53,353 83,548 -36.1 796,397 1,004,022 -21.0 TOTAL TOYOTA DIV. 114,084 172,341 -33.8 1,838,986 2,101,804 -12.8 TOTAL LEXUS 16,223 24,848 -34.7 236,725 294,622 -19.9 TOTAL TOYOTA 130,307 197,189 -33.9 2,075,711 2,396,426 -13.7 MEMO: DOM. COROLLA 16,365 24,999 -34.5 262,941 319,445 -18.0 DOM. CAMRY 24,781 34,507 -28.2 404,040 381,000 5.7 DOM. PICKUP 15,255 26,973 -43.4 264,020 337,285 -22.0 DOM. RX 5,000 5,433 -8.0 55,592 65,937 -16.0 SELLING DAYS 25 25 282 281 TOYOTA DIV. IMPORT CAR 24,365 32,720 -25.5 431,954 444,214 -3.1 LEXUS IMPORT CAR 8,941 14,892 -40.0 140,025 180,494 -22.7 TOYOTA DIV NA BUILT CARS 43,648 66,029 -33.9 707,335 767,696 -8.2 TOTAL TOYOTA CARS 76,954 113,641 -32.3 1,279,314 1,392,404 -8.4 TOYOTA DIV. IMPORT LT TRUCK 22,790 35,096 -35.1 298,340 406,091 -26.8 LEXUS IMPORT LT TRUCK 2,282 4,523 -49.5 41,108 48,191 -15.0 TOYOTA DIV NA BUILT LT TRUCK 23,281 38,496 -39.5 401,357 483,803 -17.3 LEXUS NA BUILT LT TRUCK 5,000 5,433 -8.0 55,592 65,937 -16.0 TOTAL TOYOTA LT TRUCK 53,353 83,548 -36.1 796,397 1,004,022 -21.0 SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES 29,798 42,586 -30.0 397,834 489,834 -19.1 Memo: Lexus Sport Utility 7,282 9,956 -26.9 96,700 114,128 -15.6 SMALL VANS 6,153 10,290 -40.2 109,043 125,812 -13.6 PICKUPS 15,255 26,973 -43.4 264,020 337,285 -22.0 * NORTH AMERICAN BUILT VEHICLES COROLLA 16,365 24,999 -34.5 262,941 319,445 -18.0 CAMRY 24,781 34,507 -28.2 404,040 381,000 5.7 AVALON 2,502 6,523 -61.6 40,354 67,251 -40.2 SIENNA 6,153 10,290 -40.2 109,043 125,812 -13.6 PICKUP 15,255 26,973 -43.4 264,020 337,285 -22.0 SEQUOIA 1,873 1,233 51.9 28,294 20,706 36.2 RX 5,000 5,433 -8.0 55,592 65,937 -16.0 TOTAL 71,929 109,958 -34.6 1,164,284 1,317,436 -11.9 N.A. VEHICLES % OF TOTAL 55.2% 55.8% 56.1% 55.0% SELLING DAYS 25 25 282 281 DSR = DAILY SELLING RATE

Unfortunatly your right (although I do like the G6). My first car was a '89 Bonneville, SSE... 9 way power leather seats that included power lumbar and headrest, climate control, steering wheel controls, even had a Air Compressor located in the trunk with a 30' hose with a PSI gauge on it! Where are some of these nifty features now? Even on the higher end trim levels? I mean, that was almost 20 years ago! I could still see myself driving one of those cars today if you could still find one in nice condition. Now imagine in '89 driving a car from '69... Wow what a difference. Doesn't seem like too much has really changed in the past 20 years other than an up in HP rating. Pontiac: Ditch the G3 and G5 - If Saturn dies then replace G5 with Astra. Solstice get's people in the showroom G8... need that 4 cyl turbo with 28-30 mpg's hwy, and market the crap out of it. G6, nice exterior refresh for '09. Now let's work on some refreshing of the interior. Torrent, either make it as unique to the Equinox as the Acadia is to the Enclave or cut it from the lineup. NO MORE CHINESE MOTORS! This is another good candidate for a turbo 4 for milage and power....OR.... if Saturn does die, replace torrant with Vue. Also the Outlook could be used (give it a new name or whatever) but give it a true "performance" upgrade to be a "poor man's Cayanne (spelling) so to speak. But I'm not too giddy about keeping a 4th Lambda. What happened to HUD??? Buick: Other than the enclave, nothing really going on there. Enclave should be SRX replacement. Then either ditch Buick instead of Pontiac or give it a whole new lineup... either option is costly, Buick NA is in a bad spot. I do NOT want to see GM start importing chinese Buicks into this country.