Camino LS6

Because Holden sells cars on every inhabited continent for one thing.

Yes, yes it would. Hydrogen-powered ICEs would make me most happy. No batteries!

No, I will not call the platform large and archaic given the fact it was size of a 5er, extremely flexible and lighter compared to the recent 5er being churned out. GM never let the platform blossom to its full capacity. Camino, I will not make Alpha and Zeta and future Omega mutually exclusive just because the nomenclatures are different. Knowledge from Zeta is being definitely used in the other two. Don't worry, I don't. I do, however, expect a serious rollout in a timely fashion this time after the complete debacle that was GM's handling of Zeta.

Zo6: Yes, Opel German production. And on the rest, I agree completely.

As the days have passed, I increasingly think of the 140 as a slightly cheesy version of the beautiful Converj, and the 130 still grows on me with drivetrain as its trump card. Still, I see value in both designs.

Large? Yes by today's standards. Archaic? Hardly. The VF Commodore is an evolutionary advancement of Zeta which already hands BMW its ass with regularity. VF is lighter in a dramatic fashion than VE. LPG and E-85 compatibility is built in, a diesel is ready... And government subsides in this industry are a global reality.

Except if we go by that logic so is Holden. recall that the exchange rate between AU and the US made an unfavorable business case for importing the Commedore, Ute, Estate, etc. It's certainly a concern, especially when you are talking about exports to the US, but largely the exchange rate is a red herring as increased production makes the overall profit such that it compensates. Holden has been very careful to cover costs based upon domestic sales and a low level of export. They build in the fexibility. This is less of an issue with markets closer to Oz. With Opel, there is a different set of problems (GMNA style) that put it in a much worse position than Holden for export business.

I mostly agree with this, and endorse Alpha wholeheartedly. In a perfect world, both Opel and Holden could push GM quality and innovation to new levels. But right now, they are in a serious mess. Not sure of it would work for Opel, but Holden was really at its best when GM granted it greater autonomy. I'd rather like to see that again. I'd also like to know how involved Holden has been on Alpha.

Not really... as I like the Buick styling less and less and it all looks like a Opel. And being a Riv/Buick would seem to imply it would be FWD. A large coupe would be nice, but how about a sedan that didn't require me to sit 6 inches behind the B-pillar. Or a large wagon. Something like the Challenger with a trunk or a Magnum/Flex that looks better. Wait, wait, wait. BTW, I couldn't care less about the new RWD platforms. Zeta was fine, Sigma was fine... B-bods were fine. I'm not buying a car based on what the dirty parts look like... I am buying based on the driveline configuration and the functionality of the body on top. Looking bad-ass would be a plus. I very seriously doubt anything of Opel origin will ever grace my driveway on a regular basis. Zeta and Sigma were too heavy and not flexible enough. The Alpha is highly scalable on either side of the ATS. The ATS also clocks in at 350lbs less than its primary competitor. Alpha platform is superior to the Zeta in just about every way in terms of production ability. Omega is coming to take the Zeta long wheelbase end of the lineup. This is what we in the industry call "progress". I wouldn't bet on a Riviera being FWD. I got pushback when I suggested it should be. No, I don't as I stated in an earlier post. Addressing the problem doesn't equal solving it. Look at it this way, if all of the recent Opel-derived products sold here had been kept as Opel property built in Europe and shipped here, just how well do you think they would have sold at the increased sticker that would require? Opel needs to back away from production in a large way. .....and... they.... are.... The Regal sold just fine being built in Russelheim At a profit? Doubtful. What I'm saying is that building cars in Europe (for non-premium brands) and exporting them is folly. An Opel as lean as Holden would be another matter, but I really doubt that GM can make that happen. On the other side of the equation, I think that GM beancounters are going after Holden because it is small enough to make an easy target. Something they can put in their next performance review as saving X dollars. Meanwhile, gutting a most resilient and adaptive part of GM that has long lived by its wits and made successes out of the scraps GM as a whole has let them have. And Holden is in a geographic position to serve the emerging markets of the world that Opel simply isn't. That, and a heavy dose of political hardball being played with the Aussie government must make this irresistable to the beancounters. As for Zeta, it was actually quite flexible (but you wouldn't know it by the way GM flubbed its handling). OH, and development costs? A billion dollar expense shouldered completely by Holden. Zeta is probably the most glaring example of GM's mismanagement of its architectures ever in its history. And how about Alpha? It's genesis is the Holden Torana.

No, and I really don't have any desire to. It's about more than just performance for me, I "click" with ICEs, and enjoy working on them. Electric motors are quite boring by comparison and have no appeal of that sort for me. No visceral sound from the exhaust, no fascinating mechanical structure...

No, I don't as I stated in an earlier post. Addressing the problem doesn't equal solving it. Look at it this way, if all of the recent Opel-derived products sold here had been kept as Opel property built in Europe and shipped here, just how well do you think they would have sold at the increased sticker that would require? Opel needs to back away from production in a large way.

yet... Ever

Opel is massively over capacity and suffers from the same debilitating legacy and labor problems that GMNA did pre-bankruptcy. Add-in the disaster that the EU is in general, and something clearly needs to be done. A much smaller Opel with an emphasis on FWD development has value - I realize this. However, as a manufacturing concern, and an export concern, they are nearly hopeless and geographically challenged. Let's not forget that Opel has lost $14.5 billion since 1999. You really can't wrap your mind around the elephant that is the GM accounting department can you? I think you oversimplify by laying the fault there. All of the troubles with Opel I have laid out in this thread are quite real - do you deny them?

If you want an electric car, the Volt is the way to go for that very reason. But I sure don't want an electric car.

Sharp-looking example, I like it and the price is quite good. Cheers

Opel is massively over capacity and suffers from the same debilitating legacy and labor problems that GMNA did pre-bankruptcy. Add-in the disaster that the EU is in general, and something clearly needs to be done. A much smaller Opel with an emphasis on FWD development has value - I realize this. However, as a manufacturing concern, and an export concern, they are nearly hopeless and geographically challenged. Let's not forget that Opel has lost $14.5 billion since 1999.

Most of this thread is beside the point. Cost-cutting is what we are talking about here, not product. And, Opel is where the waste and expense are most rampant. Trying to cut costs by eliminating Holden is like expecting to fix personal bankruptcy by giving-up your morning coffee. The auto industry in Europe is a 30% over-capacity, and the economic situation there is beyond volatile. Clearly, operations in that area need to be the focus.

Huge thanks, Gary.

One thing about these that rubs me the wrong way is the fact that the CV shafts run through the oil pan. I haven't heard that there is any problem stemming from that, but it still bugs me. Only other thing I can think of is that a GM tech I know says they are a real hassle to work on.

Good info - both the Tahoe and the wagon could use a lighting upgrade. The wagon doesn't surprise me - but the Tahoe is much worse than I expected.

Interesting. This car is a new one on me, but I sure wish the manufacturers would do limited runs of some concepts. There are so many that would be great to see out in the real world.

Way too much money - but very clean.

I suppose anything's possible if you find the right buyer, but I'd be surprised if it moves much beyond the 5k bid.

None of which matters when billions are vaporizing in the hole called Opel with no end in sight. It would be nice if Opel could downsize to the Holden level and remain - but the powers that be aren't likely to allow that. Given that situation, killing Opel makes a ton of sense. I do agree, however, that GMNA regularly rapes both Holden and Opel for it's own benefit and has left both holding the bag on costs without much return. In fact, a case could be made that a significant portion of Opel's problems (though not a majority) were inflicted on it by GMNA. It's even worse with Holden.