CARBIZ

I never said I didn't think GM was circling the toilet: you and I only disagree as to how they got there. Nobody buys more Toyotas than the sheep in Toronto. I fight that battle every day. When you have the editor of the Wheels section in the Toronto Star telling his mother (as he did about 4 years ago) to buy a Corolla, publicly in the newspaper, even though she had a 10 year old Cavalier that had served her faithfully and she would have had to drive 30-40 miles to the nearest Toyota dealer to buy one, then you know something is amiss. Did GM make some awful product 10-15 years ago? Yes. Did Toyota? Yes again. Who got bashed more? My position is not inaccurate in the least. When is the last time YOU worked the floor, Enzl? Don't get all elitist and uppity, like you accuse GM management of being. Perhaps you could use a refresher course on an A-B comparison: we compare leasing a car to buying it outright, and when a Cobalt (to use one example) turns out to be cheaper over all to lease 4 years and then buy it out, than a similar Corolla, clearly the Corolla does not 'hold its value better.' GM counters that with stackable credits, lower interest rates, loyalty programs (Visa points), etc, and a generally lower sticker price than the Toyota. Yes, the 'residual value' is lower, but since when does a customer give a crap about that? At the Cobalt level, it is payment, payment, payment. Maybe the Lexus buyer doesn't mind getting gouged, but the Camry/Cobalt/Malibu/Corolla buyer does. Let's wait until Toyota has two or three flat sales quarters and see how their 'higher' residuals start tumbling. Simple supply and demand - you know that as well as I do. If there are more G5/Cobalts out there than Corollas, then naturally the Corolla will have a higher residual - less of them to feed a growing demand. Wait until that demand dries up, my friend. I've driven the Corolla many times and would not buy one over a Cobalt. Even the new one. Just so that you don't think I have my 'blinders on,' I still say the nicest car in this group is the Mazda 3 - even over the Civic. Although it is good to have contrarians on this Board, you specifically are so negative that it is awe inspiring. That is the real problem GM has to overcome: people like you who believe nothing GM does is ever good enough. No amount of Tacomas being scrapped, Avalon frame welds breaking, front struts popping will ever convince people like you that Toyota is no better than GM. I am not saying GM is perfect, but you counter by saying that they are pure crap. And if GM does go down the toilet, I will get out of the business. My honor and integrity are more important to me than making a quick buck. It's too bad more people didn't feel that way, because if you are right and I am wrong, we are mortgaging our futures. I don't have any kids, how about you? Your current position may put them through school, but how will they have jobs in the future if we outsource all our factories and head offices?

They sell around 2k of them a year in Canada. Even after all these years, I can't help but smirk when I see one drive by, especially on the freeway. They could've bought a 4 cylinder Malibu for the same price and not gotten much worse gas mileage - and at least had a trunk. The Mini is a great little car (but still about $10k more than a Smart Car!) and I would pick that over the Smart any day.

Happy b'day to one of the moderates around here!

Okay, now you're starting to make me look rational! You are setting your sights far too low, my friend. The Chinese are not under-writing General Motors, they are under writing the United States.

Well, you have your reality and I have mine. It isn't a matter of 'wishing Toyota bad:' now that they are in the big leagues, they are finding big league problems, is all. Considering the Corolla is 'all new' for this year and it has barely passed the Cobalt and still not caught up to the Mazda 3, is only another indication of how befuddled the masses truly have become, the fact that they are buying them at all. On the whole, the debate about which vehicle is 'class leading' doesn't concern me as much as which purchase is not going to f$#K over my neighbors the quickest. I consider Americans to be my neighbors, although a lot of Canadians would sooner see GM die because they are 'just another import anyway.' So, all things being (nearly) equal, I would buy a GM, Ford or Chrysler over ANY import, period. But that is me. Maybe I am wrong, and maybe I am not, but I can sleep at night because I know that I am doing my best to keep my neighbors in jobs - not just this week, but for the next couple decades. I could have gone over to the 'dark side,' and maybe it would have been easier, but I would never work for Toyota, nor any import company, because to me there are more important things than a quick buck. Still, Toyota's success on this side of the Pacific would not have been nearly so assured, had thousands of people not willingly sold their souls to the Devil, so to speak. It is interesting the number of people who are willing to sell their own neighbors, countrymen, whatever, out just to make a few bucks. Is that the American way? I guess the next year or so will tell all. I still believe in the adage "what is good for General Motors is good for (North) America." Is it merely a coincidence that General Motors' slide downward over the past 15-20 years has paralleled that of the pre-eminence of the U.S.A.? Just asking, is all. If we're all in this for a quick buck, then screw it all, and let's just party!

That's why I like leasing, my friend: it's the great equalizer. As long as a Cobalt is $15-25 a month cheaper than a similarly equipped Corolla, and doing an A-B comparison works out the same between them, it kind of lays rest to the imports hold their value better myth. We used to do the comparisons between Chevys and Toyotas at my old store, and in no way shape or form was a Toyota a better deal. Their shop rate was $10 an hour higher, their scheduled maintenance was higher, their interest rates higher, but yeah, there 'residuals' were higher, too. It's going to get worse for Toyota, too, now that their sales are stagnant, they've had a few bad reports in the hallowed CR and soon they will have the used car fleets flooded with trade ins. It couldn't continue forever. We've beaten this subject to death before, you and I: nobody in their right mind would trade in a 2 or 3 year old car anyway. By years 5 or 6, the costs of owning a Toyota have really piled up, so I would hope their vehicles were worth more, because you just spend a helluva lot more driving them for the past few years. Again, I never have pretended to be an expert, and I certainly can only speak for the way things are up in the Great White North, but considering GM has 12% market share in the Greater Toronto Area, I suspect market conditions are the same in these five million people as they are in your locale. I do, however, deal with wholesalers and customers every day, so I know what the market is doing today, not last week or last month.

Mommie Dearest? It never ceases to amaze me when I see grandparents actually buying a minivan or larger vehicle so that they can shuttle their grandchildren around. I remember thinking to myself: so this is how real parents are supposed to behave? My mother (and husband #3) moved an hour away from the city to be away from their grandchildren (his kids are in California - can't get much further than that!). Nothing like being out of your kids' lives, then bitching about what horrible parents THEY are. They then spent 5 or so months in Florida, ensuring that they wouldn't have to endure Xmas with the grandkids either. They deliberately bought a one bedroom condo down there so no one can visit, even though they could have bought the entire floor. I guess I shouldn't be surprised: my mother practically telephoned in her parenthood, it would only be fitting that she emailed in her grandmotherhood.

Hmm, let me see. Let me list the things my mother has done for me: 1) Told me on my 18th birthday that she is not sure who my father is. (Although I look a lot like some guy she was banging in the summer of 1960.) 2) Phoned the parents of the ony friend I had left (after the rumor went through my highschool that I was gay) and told them I was gay. He was nearly thrown out of the house and was banned from hanging out with me after that. My only other highschool friend after that was Jehovah's Witness. I still haven't figured that one out. 3) Ran off, not once, but twice with her then current husband's best friend. (Just following in the footsteps of her mother and her older sister, who both did the same thing to their husbands at the time and best friends.) I actually have a picture of my supposed natural father (the one she nailed for getting her pregnant in 1960), and his two friends in highschool, both whom she ended up eventually marrying. Cute picture, entitled: "All my Fathers (so far.) Well, she is only 66 this month - she could marry more people my supposed father knew back then! 4) Made it her personal crusade to 'change my ways.' Followed me around when I was 16/17. Checked up on my friends. Followed me to the library if I was studying. Like she is a living role model for sexual mores! 4) Voted with her 2% of my company to kick me and my BF out on the street, literally, 12 years ago, so that my sister could take over the company when I wanted to sell it and get the hell out of a small town. Eleven years of my life flushed down the toilet. Sure, I had my sister and mother on conspiracy and a host of other charges, but my lawyer at the time wanted a $40k retainer and cautioned that we probably would only bankrupt the company if we went after them. She later apologized to me, but she knew that my sister was useless and she had to choose her grandson over me. She knew I would land on my feet (I did) and my sister would not if we sold the company. These are just what come to mind. There are a dozen smaller 'tough love' choices she made when I was growing up and later. So, whoop it up with your mother's, guys. Forgive me if I continue NOT SPEAKING TO MINE. It has been 9 years since I told her to f$%K off. Out of consideration to the rest of my family, I attended her 3rd husbands funeral last December and I was civil to her, but I will not allow her the power to screw over my life again. Enjoy your day, guys.

Kudos for you and your choice, but at least Toyota and Honda don't cannabalize their own sales. Once the Torrent came out, our Equinox sales dropped substantially and the last sales stats I saw for Canada had Torrent sales running neck and neck with the 'Nox. It's this see sawing back and forth as one side of the empire gets the next great model and then the other that has to stop. You ought to work on the sales floor when a customer innocently asks what the difference between a G5 and Cobalt is, or Sierra and Silverado. What am I supposed to say? I know the GMC guys try and say theirs is better. But they're not. They are the same damned vehicles, save a nose cap and orange dash lights. It is just silly. I'd like to see how many customers who get batted back and forth between a Chevy and GMC dealers just say 'f$%k it!' out of confusion and buy a Ford or Honda instead. This isn't 1980. GM does not own 45% of the market. The average consumer does not have the knowledge that the average person on this site does. They either don't give a damn or will just do as they are told. Our own personal views don't factor in. Gawd, some of these idiots think Chevrolet and Chrysler are the same damned thing.........................

But Balthy, you forget yourself: after the G6s are fleeted, they are then scrapped. Nobody drives them. Avis and Tilden return them to GM after 6 or 8 months, and they are immediately scrapped. That's why these sales should not be counted. And, of course, GM makes no money on these sales, or om parts sales downstream. So I guess the 40 or so 'daily rentals' that our lot sells every month are ghosts. It's just this sort of myth that is propping up the illusion of Toyota's resale values.

Please, somone tell me that this video is meant to be a joke! Reading the posted remarks below the video are very, very scary. If this is anywhere near the true state of 'African American' youth in the U.S. today, God help the future.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. I am busier at my new job, so I don't have time to lounge around as much. Personally, I've found less meat on this site than, say, 3 years ago, but that could be because I was new then and I found lots of links to news articles (remember the LA Times/GM scandal? That wasn't even covered up here in Canada) and things that helped me battle import humpers up here. The Great White North is securely in the lap of Japan Inc: almost none of the bad Toyota, Honda, etc. press get any coverage up here, so C&G was a big help in directing me to the juicy places to locate the truth. For those of us semi-post whores (3,000 in 3 years ain't that bad is it? ), some of the topics have been beaten to death and I find it difficult not to get impatient when newbies come on board, all full of piss & vinegar. (Makes me wonder how some of you longer term posters must have felt when I was new, 3 years ago ) The drama doesn't bother me. We've all seen the know-it-alls come and go. I just learn to ignore them, comfortable in the knowledge that they will get bored and move on. EEK - I just realized it just passed FOUR years since I joined. My, my, my - where has the time flown?

Maybe they can turn them into condos and make some money.

It's probably a good thing that you don't recognize any of those addresses! :AH-HA_wink:

Malibus are still hard to get around here - and I doubt the Fairfax strike is going to improve things. Our first ever LT2 6 cylinder actually made it to the lot (all others were pre-sold, because that is the only way we could get them). Our first 'hybrid' (I dislike using that term) is also on the lot - finally. Let me see, off the top of my head, the trades I have seen: 1. '00 Intrigue for a LT2 3.6 2. '97 Grand Prix for LT2 2.4 3. '04 Malibu for LS 4. ancient Intrepid for LT1 That's all I can think of. My 4 month exile from GM has me playing catch up. I have had many import humpers LOOK at the Malibu and make complimentary noises, but since GM has deigned to charge $3,500 MORE for the Malibu here than in the Excited States, our prices are much closer to the 4 banger Accords and Camry: that isn't going to be enough to convince an import humper to make the jump even if they do like the Malibu more. Until GM stops playing games with the $C, I doubt things will change. Hello 12% market share!

One of the things GM shouldn't be doing is pitting P-B-GMC dealers against Chevrolet dealers. They have been doing it here for years and it is Chevrolet that has lost out. I am not sure if it would have the same long term impact south of the border, but GM cannot afford to kill the goose that is laying the only eggs these days. If Pontiac is to survive, then it should not be competing with Chevrolet in the low end of the price scale. The Vibe is in keeping with Pontiac's mission, the Wave is not. In retrospect, it would have been better if Corvette belonged to Pontiac, but with 55 years of heritage, I guess we dare not go down that road, but Pontiac would be better off as the 'performance' division, while Chevrolet could remain the volume division. In 1967 there was plenty of room in the pony market for both the Camaro and Firebird. Today there would not be. Personally, I felt once 'leather' seats became available in a Malibu it was the beginning of the end. The Malibu and G6 can co-exist, but they shouldn't be competing on price. What would be wrong with having a base Malibu starting a couple grand lower than a base G6 but having the G6 available with more performance goodies?

Well, it is that attitude that is carrying both our nations down the toilet. Me, me, me. Our adversaries have smartened up and know how to use that mentality of selfishness against us. Good work, UAW.

This flip-flopping of names - is it a symptom of the RenCen's lack of direction, or just another example of the internet providing a forum for fools? I agree on all the acronyms, numbering, etc. I would rather drive an 'Eldorado' than a 'CTS' any day. This is one area where the Americans should stop trying to copy the competition. Just because Stuttgart has no imagination, does not mean we should follow suit.

Well, now that you girls have all gone to bed, it's time for my :twocents: Before I came over to GM, I was a dedicated Mopar fan. My first 3 cars were Dodge. My dad always owned Chryslers. Although I haunted dealers since I was 13 or 14, all I knew from Pontiac and Chev was which ones I liked the looks of better - and that changed year by year. Even as I grew up and instinctively learned that Toyota was the Evil Empire, I could've given a crap if the car was FWD, RWD, Pontiac, Chev or Buick. I trusted GM and although I considerd a '87 Century GS and the Bonneville at the time, both were out of my economic reach then. BMW, Audi and the rest were just wierd European cars, over priced and just for the snots that I used to work for in a luxury condo. My prejudices have carried with me, two decades later. My opinons haven't changed, as invariably when I am cut off on the freeway it is by an idiot in an X5 on his (or her cellphone), who doesn't believe they should signal or give the right of way. My point is, the average consumer, doesn't give a crap. Enthusiasts may, but judging by some of the name calling and hysterics that happened last night, I'd have to say GM has learned a long time ago it cannot please those people, unless they can come up with a 400 hp, RWD, pilarless coupe for $3,500. Notgonnahappen.com, my friends. Painful choices are going to have to happen. I am quoting on a G6 and an Acadia today: these people are too stupid to realize that the big bowtie on our sign means we have Chevrolet. The opportunity for GM to have done a good job of brand marketing was lost somewhere in the painful choices that were made in the early '80s. There are two generations of car buyers out there now who don't give a $h!. I do believe, however, that GM must nurture a competive model in each segment. Go after the BMW 3 and the Audis with the CTS. Go after the Corolla with the Cobalt. Go after the Camry with the Malibu and the Avalon with an Impala. Take on Acura with a Buick, and so on. I just can't see the need for 8 brands. If the choice was up to me, Saturn, Hummer and Saab would be gone tomorrow and the P-B-GMC stores would be one also tomorrow (like they are here.) However, I am not privy to the cost-benefit analysis, so I have to assume that Wagoner & Co. have some kind of game plan. As much as I am sure they wish they could tell us (because I know they are reading this), they cannot. We can cry and threaten all we want. The only thing I know for sure is that fun cars will never go away. GM may only be able to offer one, but then they only have 24% market share, so how could they afford to offer more? When they used to offer 8 or 9 'fun' models, they had 45%. I know, I know, the absolute numbers have not gone down much, but cars were much cheaper to bring to market 25 years ago. It probably costs as much to bring in the Camaro today as the entire Chevrolet line up in 1965.

But customer satisfaction is more about optics than actual deeds. The highly vaunted CSI surveys are a crock. That is not just limited to GM, either. I received one from Sheraton Hotels, too. A very bad customer experience can be bribed out of existance after the fact.

Perhaps there is a secret agenda that we are not privy too. For example, Saturn gets new product, but then no marketing money. Therefore, GM dodges being sued for obviously strangling the brand, while it is quietly doing just that. From GM's point of view, it would be a lot better for Saturn dealers to quietly sink, rather than having to pay them off, like the Oldsmobile fiasco. With the P-B-GMC merger in full swing, south of the border (you guys are, once again, playing catch-up to us Canucks ), what Pontiac does or does not get in the future will become less important. Franchise laws being what they are, GM has to play a very tight game here. As market share sinks to 20%, the business model for 8 divisions simply isn't there. Perhaps that has been the plan all along. That is assuming there is a plan at all, right Enzl?

FOG, don't get your panties all in a knot! There will always be a market for fun cars, and Detroit will find a way to build them. Cletus, your old man sounds like a very sage person. I, myself, was born in '61, and I remember my dad bitching about paying $20 to fill up his '69 300 in 1975 as prices shot up. Inevitably, if one wants to cruise through the mountains, go camping, hiking, etc., then you either have to be rich or buy an economical car. I never suffered psychological damage (well, that is MY assertion) from driving 2.2 litre Mopars in the '80s. My '87 Shadow ES was actually a fun car with the stick - when it wasn't in the shop, that is. The market, and the consumer, will always find a way. I read the Goldman Sachs report, too. However, UBS Securities released their report, and they believe oil will fall back to $70 a barrel by the end of the year. They cite two huge new finds in the Gulf of Mexico (which increases the U.S.' proven reserves by 60%) and by Brazil. A big, big chunk of the recent price increase (as much as 25% by some estimates) is from pure speculation: witness the stratospheric oil company profits. Even though neither of these finds are anywhere near coming online, the fact they exist will scare the scabs who are driving up the price of oil back under their rocks. UBS Securities also says that the U.S. is basically in a recession and other major consumers are slowing down, so once this speculation bubble subsides, we can return to more 'normal' pricing.

The good news is that due to the higher Canadian dollar, Lexus has dropped prices by $3,600 and more on some models. Time to get me a new Lexus! [This is me taking leave of my senses.]

Enzl, please explain what you mean by these contracts. I always understood that the contracts were supposed to be nation-wide. Is that not the case? How is a huge company supposed to plan, let alone function if any old shop steward gets a bug up his/her ass? I've met some of these guys, and they are all universally nuts! The CAW is making threatening noises about the Oshawa plant already. Since the replacement for the Impala is up in the air and the pick up truck market is tanking, the CAW is rattling its cage about replacements. Frankly, there rattle is getting a little weak, considering our dollar has been at par for about a year now. The huge cost benefit that Oshawa once enjoyed is now largely gone. Ford settled quickly, with a promise of new jobs in Oakville, but then what Ford plants to build here has a brighter future outlook than the Oshawa plant. This is becoming an alarming trend around here. Our transit system was paralysed for 2 days a week ago, due to a walkout. I think a lot of unions are getting scared (as they should be), but they aren't helping things, IMO. This is not the coal mines in Virginia of 100 years ago, for Gawd's Sake!

That has been GM's Achilles Heel for years. For example, the Cavalier: cheap and relatively ugly, but a fairly bullet proof car. However, since the perception is of cheapness, many people would have dismissed the car out of hand. Look at the difference of Mopar products of 10 years ago, they were the exact opposite. They looked great, the plastic bits and fit/finish were decent, but the cars were poorly built. I found the Blazer/Jimmy's created owners who either loved them or hated them - very few people were in between. I had a '98 Blazer. Loved it. Towed my boat all over hell's half acre. Never a problem. Expensive brakes, though. They were not the most glamorous. It could easily be argued that the Grand Cherokee outclassed them on many levels, but after the '98 make over, they did get a lot nicer. Except the last year, '05. I don't know what was happening at the plant, but our last few dozen were crude, clunky and horrible. I guess the workers were pissed the plant was closing.