CARBIZ

Come to Canada where the Malibu 4 cylinder will attain 40 (Imperial) mpg easily. Seriously, the 'mild hybrid' Malibu has created some interest and for the cost difference may be worth it for those who want to dip their toes in the 'hybrid' market, but I guess the real story is going to have to wait until Fall when the GMT-900s get the 2-mode. 8% may not sound like a big gain, but it is the incremental gains over a few years that will bring us to 40 mpg in city numbers without having to drive a skateboard.

Perhaps, but at $4.40 a gallon (what we are paying as of today up here) and with ever tightening 'carbon taxes' looming, 0-60 in 9 seconds may very soon seem like a luxury. I think my (then) new Rampage was around the 12 second mark in 0-60 back in '83 and I am still here.

Having driven the Cobalt on and off for the past 3 years, I managed to average 29 mpg (Imperial), with mostly city and some city highway driving. Interestingly, I got the same mileage 20 years ago with my '87 Shadow ES, with the 2.2 turbo and 5 spd. I would have to say, however, that the Cobalt is still quicker than my old Shadow was and I prefer the automatic over stick anyway (especially in and around Toronto which has the Universe's Worst Traffic, BTW.) Anyone who gets 20 mpg (American) with the Cobalt would have to be doing brake stands! Smaller engines do not automatically garner better mpg ratings. I can attest to that, being as I am driving a 2.0 litre Optra these days and its gas mileage is slightly worse than the Cobalt while being noticeably slower off the mark. I'll have to get out and drive an Astra soon. I've heard good things about it. I've had a couple of my customers inquire about it, so I should size up the competition. From what I can see around here, just the fact that Saturn has the Astra is driving people to their stores - perhaps more so than either the Aura or Outlook were able to do.

I hope it isn't the one that has been passed around my new workplace. I got it my 2nd week there - took my second Saturday off. EEK! Then, I thought it was gone after 3 days of low energy, shortness of breath, coughing, etc, I felt better for a week and then it came back last weekend! A few of the girls at work told me it took them over a monthh to get over it! I think it is all this up and down weather. We had 48 degree (for you Americans) weather and rain 2 weeks ago, but it it 8 degrees now.

I think it all boils down to this: the Rest of the World generally prefers manual trannies. When you are shifting in real traffic (not the crap they show you on the car commercials), you have no time to be drinking lattes; therefore, cupholders are pointless. In North America, we love automatics; therefore, we have time to do our make up and drink our coffees while sitting in awful traffic. If you put the automatic shifter up on the steering column (where God intended), forget about manual transmissions altogether (those are, after all, so very low-tech), then there would be room for 4 or even 6 cupholders on the console. I have to chuckle about all this debating. I remember when cars had NO cupholders. I also remember a time when a car with an automatic was not only 'cool,' but proof that you had 'arrived' (or your parents at least had money.) The DVD nav system of today is the automatic transmission of 40 years ago. It is amazing how the car magazines dictate what is important to us and what is not.

Good point. One of the difficulties in closing a plant, is that it is never really closed. Taxes must still be paid, security maintained, basic maintenace, etc., unless the plant is actually sold, but a lot of older plants aren't worth much, due to the costs of reclaiming poisoned soil, or the fact they are not in desireable neighborhoods. I can only imagine what a juggling act it must be: close a plant, keep it open, move it, sell it....if only we could see the future. Oops, sorry, I am not a tax expert or real estate agent, so my opinion doesn't move the needle.

That must be why the service drive-thru at my local Honda dealer is lined up out the door in the morning............

People can find 'offense' under any rock. If we all studied history with an open mind, we wouldn't be so quick to jump to offense. Americans love to re-hash the 'confederate'/'union' debate, as if it happened yesterday, and I even read where an Afro-American is suing Washington for, like, a trillion dollars in back wages for slaves. If that wasn't so funny, Canadians are getting themselves in a flap because General Wolfe (who is largely, if incorrectly, credited with 'conquering' Quebec at the Plains of Abraham) is being ignored in Quebec's 400th anniversary celebrations. The English-speaking Canadians are 'ashamed' of their past; the Quebecois are a 'conquered' peoples. Put in historical perspective, the French in Quebec should be thrilled that the British 'conquered' them, because if they hadn't, the United States may have - and I am sure the U.S. would have taken a less tolerant atttude toward Quebec's language laws and culture. We need to learn from our past, not bury it. The Europeans who 'built' this continent need to stop apologizing for what their great-great-grandparents may have done or did not do, and the newcomers to our shores need to understand that our tolerance that they are abusing is the very reason both our countries are so great. There is not a nation on this planet that does not have a checkered past. However, there are only a few nations that are intent on self-destructing in penance for that past.

Ah, but until someone in the West realizes they have no water, then suddenly the mid-west and northeast will look like Paradise again...

Spoken with the greatest of respect and affection, I am sure....... :AH-HA_wink:

What you say, Wildcat, is very, very true. My father always owned Chryslers, 300s to be exact. Although my mother (after they separated), went through a series of clunkers (although the '67 Caprice with bucket seats, and the '66 Pontiac wagon in navy blue do stand out), I still loved the Mopars, especially the fuselage look of the late '60s, early '70s. However, having said that, I still adapted well to a brand new (then) '82 Rampage and '87 Shadow (with turbo, of course), because that was really all the '80s had to offer. Having had the opportunity more recently to drive a '57 T-bird, I realize that nostalgia is largely flawed. Perhaps it is being Canadian, but I have never allowed my judgement to be clouded by whatever is cool, whatever is 'hot.' I look at a vehicle from its practicality, function and (most of all) its intended purpose. This is one of the reasons why I have always been a proponent of minivans and have always loathed SUVs. Minivans do their intended function very well; whereas, most SUVs do not. Vehicle purchases/ownership can be a very emotional issue, especially for people on this board. However, those that are running the ship, so to speak, have to be very careful to keep emotion out of their decisions. Whether we like it or not, insurance costs, EPA and CAFE regulations, costs - all of these factors are conspiring to make owning a vehicle more of a luxury, rather than a right. I sincerely hope that we never see the end of the personal conveyance contraption, but in an increasingly over-freighted planet, we are going to have to start making serious decisions about how we are going to expend our resources. After all, even fighting a war over resources consumes those same resources we are willing to fight for. Unless someone strikes oil on the moon.

Okay, who is drinking the foo-foo drink in the foreground?

It's the combination of 3rd row availability, interior volume, visibility, ride height, fuel mileage - these are all 'musts' for families on a budget. Polish, you are right: bang for the buck the Uplander is a helluva deal. A six cylinder, 3 rows, OnStar, 17" wheels, ABS, etc., etc. However, GM has been foisting these on us for 4 years now. All the cheap buyers have been taken. Getting a customer out of a 2001 Valu Van (now there was an atrocity!) into an Uplander base was easy, but now those people are going to be coming due and want something better. Not to mention the number of Venture people who were happy (yes, happy) with their Ventures but apalled at the lack of leg room in all 3 rows of the Uplander. What the hell happened? Why did the seats have to grow so 'fat?' My point is, I was a huge fan of the Uplander - 3 years ago. GM cannot continue to sell on price/value forever, especially when Hyundai and Kia are finally figuring out how to build cars and trucks people won't be ashamed to be seen in. The Journey would have been a great replacement for the Tracker, and something that GM needs in Canada if it is going to remain in the game up here.

Yep. Thanks to the writer's strike, Bionic Woman (no big deal) and Journeyman (a cool show that I was really starting to get into) are both gone. Heroes and others won't be back until September. I'm not sure what happened to Battlestar Galactica: that was a very well-written, thought out series. I think they are still going to make a few more episodes to wind it down.

The HHR rapidly becomes $29k, too. Which would you rather have?

I remember reading somewhere (maybe in my Murphy's Law Bible) that there is a law of business that states: "Every employee will eventually be promoted to his/her own level of incompetence." I have seen that happen in many other companies, at least. Someone is doing a great job in their department? Promote them! That seems to be very big in large corporations these days, but maybe the guy/gal should be left where he/she is. Why is a promotion the end-all and be-all? Still, I doubt Rick was driving Cadillacs when he was in Brazil.

+ 1 Too bad GM didn't offer up the new Camaro for the show. The original show was pretty bad, though. It's kind of like wishing they would bring back the Bionic Woman.... Oh, wait, they did............

Which is why I like leasing the best, because it is the great equalizer. If you are shopping a Saturn and a Volvo, for example, it is easy to compare a 4 year lease payment. Lease it, then run like hell; of course, you will pay more for the Volvo anyway, but at least you will enjoy it before it starts 'nickel and diming' you to death. Otherwise, for those who simply must look at the 'imports,' I always challenge them to call up the local dealer and compare parts. How much for a starter? How much for an alternator? How much for the power window motors? Compare those three items alone, and you will get a clearer picture of the 'cost of ownership.'

My sister used to be an electrician (now she is electrical site inspector - SHE HAS THE POWER TO TURN YOUR POWER OFF!), so it is great to see more women becoming car freaks. Similarly, I am thrilled at the number of gay people on this board who actually like (and know something about) cars. Most of MY friends think I am nuts.

It isn't about xenophobia or racism, in my opinion. The Rule of Law is a Roman principle, handed down throughout Europe and it flourished under British Common Law. In most of Asia and South Asia, laws are merely suggestions. Ford and GM were able to co-exist in Europe, as were many Canadian and American companies, due to the Rule of Law. Japan and China had nothing recognizeable. Great Britain tried to enforce that upon the Chinese and we all know how that worked out. There is nothing 'co-existant' about Japan Inc. How would you explain Toshiba, Hitachi and others getting sugar beat import quotas to offset their losses in North America? Why would the MITI even exist in Japan, if not to coordinate attacks on Western markets? Do you see Japan enjoying the same kind of success across a tiny sea? Why would they prefer to ship products 10,000 miles when a huge market is a 45 minute flight away? Why is that?

I repeat from my earlier post: HUBRIS. GM and Ford expanded heavily into Europe because it was a markety they could understand and relate to. Japan was a backward country until the turn of the 20th Century. The West didn't even think Japan was worth INVADING back then. Great Britain, the Dutch and others turned their attentions to China. Japan didn't seem like a market worth exploiting at all, until very recently. As a consequence, they were able to develop a home-grown market quite easily - with stolen technology, I might add. Ever hear of the Selden Patent? Look it up. Western patents and trademarks were not recognized by Japan until the last few decades. While GM and Ford had to abide by our rules, Japan did not. (In fact, in many cases, China still does not recognize a lot of intellectual property, or if it does, it does little to enforce it.) The Japanese are very shrewd in their estimation of the North American market. They waited until the timing was right, then allowed GM to finance their forays into our market, learned the ropes and then conquered. They already had templates from the electronics industry that they killed off in the '70s. How many on this Board are old enough to remember when Made in Japan meant cheap crap, somewhat like Made in China does today? When I was a kid, Made in Japan was for disposable razors and cheap transistor radios. Ford could easily have taken over the Japanese market in the twenties and thirties, but with all the expansion in American and Europe, why bother? A bit of racism was probably at work there, too. I mean, how many Japanese speaking executives exist in Detroit even today? In some respects, America is guilty of thinking that the rest of the world wants to be like it, so therefore the rest of the world should adapt. Since WWII, we have lived a pretty idylic life in North America. Some countries in Europe had one form of rationing or the other until the late '50s. Look at a '57 Plymouth, a best seller here, and a '57 Morris, a best seller in Europe, to get what I mean. But the markets are converging again, thanks to oil prices and how expensive technology is becoming. If a new engine is a billion dollars to develop, then a manufacturer must make it global to pay for itself. Detroit, and by extension Washington, ignored Tokyo's abuses until the early '80s, but by then it was already too late. Too many 'lobbyists' and interest groups were in the pockets of Japan Inc. for anything purposeful to happen. Couple that with the perfect storm that hit Detroit in the mid-70s which pretty much killed the automobile for anything other than mundane transport for 15 years, and the market was ripe for a take over. GM, comfortable in its market dominance, appointed a succession of bean counters to the throne - that certainly didn't help either.

The $20,000 question is: WHY THE HELL DOES GM NOT HAVE ANYTHING LIKE THIS FOR THE CANADIAN MARKET? Oh, that's right, we have the HHR (doesn't sell), the Equinox (4 years old) and the Tahoe ($50k and doesn't sell.) They even took away the Optra wagon, not that it was selling well, but at least it was an option. Unfortunately, Canada as an auto market, is rapidly falling into irrelevance in GM's eyes. It now sells more vehicles in China and Brazil. The trouble is, GM Canada ( a fully independent company, as aathbloke would contend - HA) should decouple itself from Detroit and ally itself with Vauxhall and Opel. The Uplander RWB is a thousand dollars cheaper than this Journey, but its sales have tanked. People can only be fooled for so long. I would think the Journey will do alright in Canada, as long as people forget how badly they hated their Chrysler minivans.

I think it is safe to say that GM burned its customers in the horrible decade of 1985-95. What we are seeing now is that generation of first time consumers now moving into the corporate world enacting their revenge. GM's house began to turn around a long time ago, but an entire generation of car buyers who were burned in the '80s have to either forgive or DIE before GM can return to any semblance of its former glory. When it comes to car branding, the public can be fickle, but it takes time. We see the 40-somethings now talking their 60-something parents out of buying a domestic and into buying a Honda/Toyota because of their own built-in preconceptions and prejudices. I don't have the dates in front of me, but wasn't Wagoner in South America for a chunk of his career? To conjure up another example, Churchill was not responsible for the mess that England found itself in back in '39 even though he was in Parliament for a very long time, but he was the one brought in to clean it up. And look how he was rewarded after the war? Summarily booted out by a fickle voting public. Too often in politics and Big Business, the head of state becomes the target of unfriendly wrath when, in reality, that person is either only a figure head or merely one of many in charge. I am not really defending Wagoner. I certainly don't envy his job. As I said earlier, give him until mid-next year and if GM isn't out of the woods, then a Board shake up might be a good idea. :twocents:

You are, of course, right on most counts, which is why Wagoner and his cronies are having such a difficult time turning the ship around. Don't forget the biggest factor of all: being the biggest auto market makes America (and by default, Canada) the biggest target from overseas manufacturers. If you were the CEO of a foreign company and your marketing boys told you you could expect 3% of a 1.5 million car market (like Brazil) or 3% of a 17 million car market for the same investment, which would you pick? YOu have to understand that Toyota and Honda do not enjoy the same market penetration anywhere else in the world (not even Japan!) that they do here. You cannot blame Japan Inc for targeting us, but you can blame our politicians for making it so easy and us for being so foolish to allow it. Nearly all of the problems, whether business related or otherwise, that we are experiencing in North America are directly related to our own selfishness and our hubris. If I see one more 'study' that declares Canada the best place in the world to live, I will hurl. It just makes us a target, of either envy or jealousy and then the world comes to dump its problems on our doorstep. Eventually, as we fight a war on a hundred fronts, the very standard of living and soundess of infrastructure that makes us the best in the world will become so diluted and over-run that we will be dragged down to the level of the rest of the world anyway. You have seen this mood in both the business and political world subtly shift in the past decade. These multi-nationals are not here to co-exist. They are here to conquer.

Well, you might want her to hang around the service drive thru on a weekday morning of a Volvo dealer and have her talk to the owner's, under cover. I've seen Volvo owners justify $6k in repairs in a single year, because it is a "Volvo." And that was before Ford bought them! $2k to get the a/c working?